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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Star Wars Versus Forum » SUPER FIGHT II - Darth Vader (The Ellimist) vs Revan (DarthAnt66)


SUPER FIGHT II - Darth Vader (The Ellimist) vs Revan (DarthAnt66)
Started by: Jaggarath

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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

?


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Old Post Feb 27th, 2018 01:07 AM
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Freedon Nadd
Senior Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

Because you are exaggerating his feats through a bad context. I guess.


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Old Post Feb 27th, 2018 08:21 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Hello, all.

Because of a snow storm that disabled my power all of Friday into Saturday, The Ellimist has agreed to give me a one day extension for that lost time.

However, I will still aim to finish the post by tonight, although likely in the midnight ET range. Sourcing takes a quite deal of time, which I am doing now.


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2018 10:05 PM
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Azronger
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Looking forward to it


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2018 11:53 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
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The post will be here shortly. Please do not comment on the thread until it is fully posted.


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 07:43 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
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(Post 1 of 12)

The Ellimist's Bane (Diss Track) - by KbroSkywalker / Rockydonovang:




an slaughter timing (Diss Track) - by Deronn_solo / dadivineking:




--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

TOO TIRED TO . . . FAIL?

SUMMARY: This argument disproves a long-standing notion that, because Darth Vader fights comparably to Starkiller in The Force Unleashed II, Vader can replicate Starkiller’s feats or defend against his attacks. Immediately before he fights Darth Vader, Starkiller expends a vast amount of his power destroying his clones and the platforms around him. Consequently, Starkiller notes that he is exhausted more than ever before, which includes him surviving thirteen days without food nor sleep and sustaining himself solely off the Force. Directly thereafter, Darth Vader and Starkiller duel, yet Starkiller gains the upper-hand by attacking Vader with Force lightning and moves to strike Vader down. However, Starkiller is prevented by a Force vision that flashes before him, allowing Darth Vader to escape. Nevertheless, since Starkiller is demonstrably on par or superior to Darth Vader while in a greatly weakened state, it logically holds that Vader is not comparable to him under normal conditions.

In my first post, I emphasize that, while in his thirteen-day trial, he avoids even thinking about the past because it wastes too much energy with his life at his stake. Now, I want to stress another point that, even before Starkiller destroys the cloning facility, he obliterates the Salvation. The novelization notes that Starkiller fears that this feat may kill him like it did Galen Marek on the Death Star a year prior [1], indicating he releases almost the totality of his Force reserves. Starkiller falls unconscious by doing this and, when he awakes, is so exhausted that he struggles to even stand (click for reference). Note that Starkiller does not rest between this point and his confrontation with Darth Vader. As my response to The Ellimist later highlights, there is no remedy to exhausting one’s Force reserves besides meditation. Thus, between using the Force in such extreme ways twice-over, along with extensive fighting in the intermediate time, it is clear he is far closer to death than full strength when fighting Darth Vader.

If The Ellimist cannot convincingly and fully discredit this argument, all arguments made by him for The Force Unleashed II (e.g. the powering of the cannon) are rendered irrelevant.

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

The part you left out is that Starkiller was rage amped:

He stopped her before she flew off the edge of the roof, at least, but the grisly crunch of bones when she landed was unmistakable. Her head was bent at an impossible angle, and her eyes didn't track him as he ran toward her.

"Juno!"

A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward.


--The Force Unleashed II

Also in the game he screams like a maniac right before Vader ragdolls him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ueh...&t=1h11m16s

And throughout Legends, rage amps have consistently outweighed fatigue in potency.


Whoa, whoa. Because the text notes that Starkiller, for a single attack mind you, uses “all his rage, all his grief,” that means he is radically amplified for the entire fight?

(please log in to view the image)

Your argument rests on the following assumptions:

- Starkiller’s rage amplified his abilities.

- Starkiller’s rage amplified his abilities so much that it negated his exhaustion.

- Starkiller’s rage maintained throughout the entire fight.

I will go through the three points individually.

1. DOES STARKILLER’S RAGE AMPLIFY HIS ABILITIES?

You set a dangerous precedent by automatically assuming that an enraged individual must benefit from an exceptional boost in power. The issue with that is that most Sith, like Darth Malgus, Darth Maul, and Darth Vader, already use their rage and grief under normal conditions. For example, in The Force Unleashed II, the text refers to “Vader’s rage” as synonymous with his natural power output. Following the logic, Darth Vader using all his available power readily translates to “all his rage” - yet you would argue this means he is amplified, would you not?

Your assumption likely comes from a misconception that rage equates to Force rage. However, there is an important distinction, which is what separates Maul’s hate-filled blows against Qui-Gon Jinn with his performance against Darth Sidious on Hypori. Force rage, which is likely what you are thinking of when you refer to a "rage amp," is a specific Force application of totally surrendering oneself to their rage and dark side. The practitioner is consumed in a frenzy of dark side emotion (e.g. Darth Maul on Hypori, Obi-Wan Kenobi on Naboo, Jacen Solo on Coruscant, etc.), which grants "increased power for a short period of time." Once the bloodlust subsides, the user is "drained of huge amounts of energy,” hence why it is not commonly used in combat.

Given we have established there is no inherent basis to assume Starkiller is using Force rage, we should analyze the effects of Starkiller’s rage and see if it aligns with the description and examples of Force rage. If it does, that strengthens your case. Otherwise, the argument is dead.

(please log in to view the image)

--- --- ---

quote:
Source: Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II (2010)

He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward.

Instead of pursuing the attack, Starkiller went to go to Juno, but once again Darth Vader stood in his path.

"Get out of my way.”

"Your feelings for her are not real, " Vader said, nor moving.

"They are real to me. "

Starkiller attacked the Dark Lord again, but this time he was the one driven back.

With a sense of piercing despair, he saw exactly how the fight would go . . .

Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair.


The behavior Starkiller demonstrates is outright contradictory to what is expected with the blind, continuous fury of Force rage. Immediately after his first attack, Starkiller breaks off and goes to Juno Eclipse. Darth Vader blocks him, yet Starkiller asks him to get out of the way! What he should be doing, if he was actually using Force rage like you claim, is continually attacking Darth Vader like Obi-Wan Kenobi against Darth Maul on Naboo. Further, when Darth Vader refuses, Starkiller attacks with less strength than before, which either indicates the effects of Force rage are already ebbing - meaning Starkiller is in an even weaker state for the rest of the fight due to the Force deprivation that follows Force rage - or he was never in a frenzy in the first place. The fact Starkiller gains a burst of clarity, in which he realizes that he must avoid the dark side and contain his anger and despair, destroys the notion he is consumed by his rage.

2. DOES STARKILLER’S RAGE AMPLIFY HIS ABILITIES SO MUCH THAT IT NEGATED HIS EXHAUSTION?

If Starkiller’s rage is amplifying his abilities and negating his exhaustion, we should see a noticeable improvement in his performance against Darth Vader between his fight in the cloning facility minutes mere minutes prior - in which the text does not even mention “rage” - and their current fight on the outside platforms. However, Starkiller blatantly performs better in the first fight. During it, he incapacitates Darth Vader with Force lightning via incorporating it within the patterns of attack, whereas in the later fight he has to trick Darth Vader into lowering his guard and then unleashes Force lightning at a specific point of vulnerability. This discrepancy not only shows that Starkiller never received “an amp” the second fight but further substantiates my argument that Starkiller becomes more and more exhausted as he fights Darth Vader.

(Continued . . . )


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 07:55 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

(Post 2 of 12)

(Continued . . . )

3. IS STARKILLER’S RAGE MAINTAINED THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE FIGHT?

You write a simple equation that rage + exhaustion = rage, but this fails to account for the degree of rage and exhaustion in question.

You ironically cite Darth Maul’s fight against Darth Sidious on Hypori, but this illustrates my point. Darth Maul erupts in a Force rage, but once he presses a retreating Darth Sidious against the cave wall, his vision blurs, he gasps for breath, and his strength evaporates. While Darth Maul is able to temporarily wash away his exhaustion, it cannot be maintained for a long period of time and, as aforementioned, further drains Maul of “huge amounts of energy” when it is over. This creates a dilemma for you, since The Force Unleashed II novelization makes explicit emphasis that not only is the Darth Vader fight prolonged, but there are entire conversations scattered in between attacks.

quote:
Source: The Force Unleashed II novelization (2010)

With a sense of piercing despair, he saw exactly how the fight would go. He and his former Master would dance like marionettes while Juno lay dying-if she wasn't already dead-and the war raged around them, unchecked by this minor tragedy . . .

They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked . . .

They broke apart, lightsabers hissing in the ceaseless rain. Lightning split the sky into a thousand jagged shapes. Thunder rolled. Neither had noticed the battle fading around them.

"Let me go, " Starkiller said, sounding much calmer than he felt. His heart was pounding, and his lungs burned. "You've taken everything from me. You must see that I will never serve you now. "

"You are wrong. I have given you everything. "

"This?" He gestured at Juno's inert form. He couldn't tell if she was breathing, but he still held out a distant hope. "You have done nothing for me. "

"It is our destiny to destroy the Emperor. You and me, together. " . . .

"The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor, " Starkiller said. "Why not work with them rather th-?"

Vader attacked before he could finish the sentence, a blistering combination of blows that left Starkiller on his back foot. Clearly he had hit a very deep nerve. For a fleeting moment, the plan had seemed almost inspired. With Darth Vader on Kota's side, what couldn't the Alliance accomplish?


It is next-to-impossible that Starkiller maintains his hypothetical Force rage for the entire fight when Darth Maul burns out in a few moments. I highlighted in blue Starkiller asking Darth Vader to join the Rebellion during the fight, which is as far away as Force rage as one can get. Even if you want to ignore everything I have said above and say Starkiller was in a Force rage early in the fight, he clearly is not at the end. Thus, Starkiller would not only suffer from the exhaustion I outlined earlier, but also the additional and severe fatigue of Force rage. This means one of two things: Starkiller defeats Darth Vader while in a state so ludicrously bad that it is hard to fathom, or he never uses Force rage in the first place.

Your pick.

4. OH, AND BY THE WAY . . .

You never even responded to my argument.

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As aforementioned, Starkiller has an entire fight with Darth Vader minutes before Vader tosses Juno Eclipse and Starkiller gets temporarily enraged.

Spoiler alert: Starkiller wins.

Everything I stated in my original post stands. If Starkiller, while teetering on death, can defeat Darth Vader, you are better off “scaling” Vader to Starkiller’s dirty boots.

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

Combine this with the fact that Force users can recover from exhaustion within seconds in the RotS novelization, and while Dooku wasn’t quite as exhausted as Starkiller was and maybe he’s especially skilled at energy replenishment or something, it’s more evidence that combined with the emotional circumstances . . .


It genuinely seems like you are not even convinced of your argument.

You should not be either since, as you likely know, what Dooku does in the Revenge of the Sith is inconsistent with every other source on the subject. I originally anticipated this to be your main argument, so I was surprised to see you made both the one above and this one because they are mutually exclusive. If Force users can instantly replenish their Force reserves at will, tell me why Darth Maul is so exhausted on Hypori? Or, why is Starkiller teetering on the brink of death after thirteen days of meditation? It does not make sense. Either Dooku knows a specific Force technique that not even Luke Skywalker knows (more on that soon), or the event is one of many inconsistencies within the Star Wars universe and should be discarded. Whatever the case, you have no argument.

Force users can temporarily block their physical fatigue by way of the Force - which to an extent may be what Dooku does - but there is an intrinsic difference in that and replenishing their Force reserves. With Starkiller, he is not just physically tired: his Force reserves are almost empty! After the attack, Starkiller notes, “The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being. He felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned. One logically cannot use the Force - or deplete more Force energy - to gain Force energy. Indeed, Luke Skywalker, who burns away a portion of his Force reserves by fighting and imbuing a portion of his power into a girl, notes:

quote:
Source: Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi - Conviction (2011)

He felt weary. Well, wearier. That last fight on Almania had stolen a lot of his strength. Keeping himself going despite his injury had taken more. And now this. What he had sacrificed he would eventually regain, after rest and food and meditation, but for now he felt tired to his bones. He wondered if the same was true of Abeloth.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KolfEhV-KiA

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

RE: CHERRY BOMB

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

This quote obviously doesn’t mean that Vader cannot fight with the polished “technique of study with lifelong masters” given that:

Rather, against Luke in ESB he initially toys with him, and when he gets serious visibly just starts manically hacking away at him. If he had been fighting, say, Dooku, or someone with more experience as a swordmaster, he would have tried no such thing.

Yes, as his experience is why he has tapped into more of his potential and technical ability. Luke obviously would destroy Vader (or Palpatine) if their experience levels were on an even playing field.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaeZ3RrzpLA

Once again, you are missing the point.

Yes, of course Darth Vader is skilled. However, not all sources portray him that way. My explicit point is that Fightsaber - the source you are using to argue that Darth Vader grew vastly in power between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back - disagrees. In other words, you are cherry picking what parts of a source you want to use. To preface, You baselessly assume that Darth Vader toyed with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. You may not know this, but many sources - perhaps a majority, including primary sources like the script and The Essential Guide to Characters which you cite later on - convey that Luke legitimately contended with Vader on Bespin. Further, most of the sources that state Luke was no match for Vader make no mention of toying either, just that the fight was brutal. Luke’s comparison between Gethzerion and Vader, as I discuss in greater detail later on, is the only quote I can think of that implies Vader went easy, and even then the context is ambiguous.

Regardless, you would have to argue the author is being intentionally deceptive and withholding information from the reader, since Fightsaber never even implies what you are suggesting. There is no reason why Vader’s technique would suddenly collapse, even if he were toying with Luke Skywalker. If anything, Vader’s alleged toying would demonstrate his ”advanced polish of study,” similar to Dooku versus Obi-Wan Kenobi in Attack of the Clones. Further, Fightsaber stating, “Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers,” clearly does not mean Luke “held up against” a holding back Vader. That would be a crucial left out detail that completely redefines the meaning of the quote. The same applies for the ”advanced polish of study” quote.

You are going to need another source to argue Darth Vader vastly grew between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back.

(Continued . . . )


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Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 07:55 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

(Post 3 of 12)

(Continued . . . )

RE: SHEDDING LIMITATIONS

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

Wrong. “malevolence” and “force” are two different terms; the Emperor does turn his full malevolence against Luke by sadistically torturing him. If he had killed Luke quickly he actually would not have been as malevolent as he could be. That obviously doesn’t mean the same thing as force and frankly that argument was silly.

Your point is rather convoluted and a transparent attempt at mental gymnastics, but let’s cut the speculation and look at the actual source material:

Note the lightning in the second panel – all of it in view very clearly arcs back at Vader. Note the shading and the border – it’s clearly enveloping the two of them. The only way this could mean anything different is if Palpatine were shooting his lightning directly into the page, and then only some of it arcs back at Vader. That doesn’t work when you look at the two scorched figures’ feet and the apparent positioning of Palpatine's hands – Palpatine would have to be deliberately arcing his lightning not only away from Vader, but in such a configuration as for none of the allegedly loose lightning to show up on the panel.


(please log in to view the image)

I am getting second-hand embarrassment right now. There must be some misunderstanding of my argument since I completely agree that the Emperor’s lightning hit Darth Vader. In fact, that is my entire point! The “full force” in “Anakin took the full force of his Dark Master's evil lightning upon himself” can mean either “full potency” or “full impact.” Below are four examples of “full force” and “full impact” functioning interchangeably.

> The anticyclonic ridge strengthened on its northern side and interrupted the full force of the colder air mass.

> Hulk punches Thor, but the Viking god dodges the blow. Instead, the wall is hit with the full force of Hulk’s blow!

> The building took the full force of the blast.

> Draped over the bench like this the body takes the full force of recoil, with no flexibility to absorb the jolt.

---

What we know:

A.) “Full force” is synonymous with “full potency” and “full impact.”

B.) Darth Vader took the “full impact” of the Emperor’s lightning.

Note: for unknown reasons, you extensively argue why this should be case in your last post, noting “all of [the lightning] in view very clearly arcs back at Vader,” so there should be no dispute here.

Put two and two together and, within the context of the quote, my “full impact” interpretation perfectly works for “full force.”

We have two possible values for X (what “full force” means): I and P. It is unknown whether both values work, or just one. However, we definitively know that value I, “full impact,” satisfies the conditions for X. On the contrary, there is no evidence that value P, “full potency,” works. All you have cited thus far is the quote itself, which is circular logic. Further, the Dark Empire Endnotes is a retelling of already defined events. Summaries generally recount pre-established information and rarely create new pieces of continuity. Thus, it is unlikely that the source would have created value P rather than just work with the already created value I. All things considered, either X is value P or X is undefined. Either way, your point fails.

Remember, you are the one who started this argument. The burden of proof is on you to prove that “full force,” which can already be translated to a canonical interpretation of “full impact,” is actually referring to “full potency.” Exceptional arguments require exceptional proof, but regretfully you have none.

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

Absurd non sequitur. So a lack of omniscience suggests something about Palpatine’s lightning? Perhaps we can say Vitiate’s lightning wasn’t at full power against Revan because he couldn’t foresee Scourge’s betrayal?

Textbook circular logic fallacy. But congratulations, you’ve given Vader another feat – that he can block RotJ Sidious’s foresight / telepathy.


You are missing the point.

I agree that a single misstep by the Emperor does not indicate much - even the most powerful Sith Lord in history is not omniscient. However, when there are five instances of the Emperor’s powers failing him in a three-minute timespan, red flags should be raised. It is far too unlikely to chalk up to coincidence alone, especially considering the cosmic significance of the events. As I note in my first post, “Whether it was because he was blinded by rage, blocked by the will of the Force, taken off guard, or all of the above, it is clear the Emperor lost control of his powers and thus would not be capable of utilizing them effectively.”

Also, no. Darth Vader does not block the Emperor’s foresight when he grabs him. I do not know why you stated that since you know it is not supported by any source whatsoever, especially considering the Emperor’s foresight fails him moments earlier with explicit mention that Darth Vader has nothing to do with it [2]. However, early drafts of Return of the Jedi, albeit clearly not definitive, indicate that the netherworld blocks the Emperor’s perception of Darth Vader’s betrayal [3]. This further substantiates the likelihood that, given this event is the most pivotal in galactic history and the fulfillment of the Force’s will, mysterious factors are at play.

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

d and e are irrelevant given the sources provided.


Pardon me? How is the fact that the Emperor is unable to levitate out of the pit after being thrown in, nor guide himself to land on the many walkways he fell past, irrelevant? Those are two blatant examples that the Emperor lost control of his power and, thus, could not utilize them effectively. If your issue is that this is exclusive to Canon, you are wrong. The walkways are visible in countless Legends images, from paintings to photos (click for reference).

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

Congratulations, you’ve given Vader another feat – he can physically overpower Palpatine, who has matched blades with Yoda, moved faster than Maul can perceive and casually saber locked against Savage and Maul’s running starts at the same time.


Darth Vader had spent “minutes” focusing and preparing “his very fiber of [his] being” for the attack, then, “with a final surge of strength,” ambushes the Emperor and immediately pins his arms into place. This makes the event utterly not combat applicable, which is obvious, but further calls into question the feat given Vader is operating a level of power far beyond his normal output.

quote:
Source: Star Wars: Return of the Jedi adult novelization (1983)

At that instant, Vader sprang up and grabbed the Emperor from behind, pinning Palpatine's upper arms to his torso. Weaker than he'd ever been, Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed.


(Continued . . . )


__________________

"There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 07:55 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

(Post 4 of 12)

(Continued . . .)

RE: LUCY IN THE SKY WITH DIAMONDS

In my last post, I extensively explained how The Force Unleashed novelization holds greater authority than the video game. However, The Ellimist and I are in dispute if this argument holds relevance given the specific rules of the thread. Since negotiations are still proceeding as I write this post, I will refrain from commenting on it for the time being, but may respond in my third post depending on what we decide. That being said, my foremost rebuttal to the Fusion Accelerator Cannon is the TOO TIRED TO . . . FAIL? argument at the start. Since Darth Vader cannot be scaled of Starkiller, none of Starkiller’s feats are relevant to the debate. Nevertheless, I am addressing this because I do not believe this is a feat for Starkiller either.

There are two interpretations of the Fusion Accelerator Cannon event: the Databank explicitly states the cannon can be reconfigured into a superweapon in a way that resembles Starkiller’s actions, but such is wholly coincidental and, rather, Starkiller directly supplies the energy needed to split a Star Destroyer in two - or - Starkiller’s actions resembling said alterations is not a coincidence and means Starkiller reconfigured it into a superweapon. Of these two, one should obviously accept the most logical and consistent take. The fact The Ellimist self-professes his interpretation to be a “ludicrous” display of power in his first post highlights which argument should be taken seriously.

Mine.

However, The Ellimist’s interpretation is irrelevant regardless, given it hinges on Starkiller supplying the power input and forcing it through the barrel of the cannon. Sourcebooks state that the power input for laser cannons are the same for mere blasters, but the energy goes through a series of amplifying processes in the barrel that dramatically increase its potency. Standard turbolasers have an additional layer of focusing properties, thus tripping the power output compared to a laser cannon. Planetary turbolasers take it to another level, having dispersal tubes and cooling sleeves helping to maintain stability at such levels of power. Thus, the argument that Starkiller supplied the power input is laughably inconsequential given how dramatically it would be amplified. If the power of a blaster bolt can be converted into the output of turbolasers, Starkiller’s vastly more potent Force lightning would clearly yield the power needed to destroy a Star Destroyer. Interestingly, Hayden Blackman, the main supervisor of The Force Unleashed, even wrote The New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology!


quote:
Source: The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology (1997)

When a blaster is fired, a small amount of high-energy blaster gas moves from the gas chamber to the gas conversion enabler (commonly called an XCiter). There the gas is excited by energy from the weapon's power source, which is a small power pack for hand weapons and a reactor or a power generator for a larger weapon. The excited gas passes into the actuating blaster module, where it is processed into a beam comprised of intense energy particles coupled with light. Turbolasers are two-stage supercharged laser cannons. The small primary laser produces an intense energy beam that enters the turbolaser's main actuator, where it interacts with a stream of energized blaster gas to produce an intense blast.


quote:
Source: The New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology (2004)

Laser cannons are similar in blasters in design. Volatile blaster gas, funneled from a supercooled and armored chamber, is combined with a power charge. The resulting energy is directed through a long barrel, were galven coils focus it into a damaging beam. Other circuitry in the barrel increases the beam’s power, allowing laser cannons to inflict incredible damage . . . Laser cannons also require dedicated power sources and advanced cooling systems to avoid overheating . . .

Unlike a standard laser cannon, a turbolaser employs a two-stage supercharging process. The first stage creates a typical laser beam, which is guided through a stream of energized blaster gas to dramatically increase its potency. As with other laser cannons, the turbolaser’s energy field is focused by galven coils in the weapon’s barrel. The two-stage design creates blasts with triple the power of standard laser cannons.


In my first post, I note that all cannon functions turn back online once Starkiller charges it with Force lightning, indicating he reactivates it. The Ellimist argues this means Starkiller “supercharges it and there is lots of residual energy, given that Galen does this to a hyperdrive engine.” Regardless if true or not, there is mutual consensus that the barrel’s functions are back online once Starkiller does-what-he-does to the coils. Indeed, the barrel is visibly activated and glowing when the Star Destroyer-destroying blast fires (click for reference). Thus, there should be no dispute that Starkiller’s energies would have coursed through the activated barrel, been unfathomably amplified many times over, then fired.

--- --- ---

While these points cover the bulk of The Ellimist latest arguments, I will touch upon a few that do not.

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

Kota’s dialogue with Starkiller. When Kota notes the gun is offline from a “direct hit” and asks Starkiller what he can do, Starkiller says “do I look like an engineer to you?”

Does that sound like someone who understands the intricacies of this prototype superweapon’s “tertiary cooling” system that you allege he somehow managed to “fine tune” by blindly shooting lightning at it? Kota then says “I don’t care if you have to power that thing by hand!”


To quote you, this is an “absurd non sequitur.” I never argued Starkiller had to understand the intricacies of the Fusion Accelerator Cannon. Starkiller may not know the details of reconfiguration, but that does not negate the idea that he did reconfigure the cannon, especially considering his actions resemble the process listed in the Databanks.

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

Second smoking gun: the cannon clearly fires Starkiller’s Force lightning:

Right before that, we see Starkiller draining his own lightning from the coils and then physically pushing it into the cannon


This . . . never happens. The energy within the coils remains after Starkiller charges up his telekinetic push. It only goes away once the cannon fires.

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

We see the cannon fire earlier and it looks completely different (and far weaker) – given that we’ve established above and will establish a bit later that Starkiller could not have done the necessary configurations to make it a superweapon, the only explanation is that it’s firing his energy..


The cannon fire that Starkiller initiates appears exactly the same as the standard cannon fire (click for reference). All of the charges have the bluish purple lightning-esque effects. The only distinction is that the cannon fire initiated by Starkiller appears larger and more volatile, but that is obvious given the blast had enough power to cut a Star Destroyer in two. The point of dispute is what gave it such power.

Further, you are blatantly contradicting yourself by arguing that the cannon outright fires Starkiller’s Force lightning. You argue a few quotes down that “any weapons system involves converting between different forms of energy” to my point that, in the Nintendo DS version, the cannon visibly fires projectiles indisputably distinct from Force energy. So, does the cannon convert Starkiller’s energy into something else (click for reference) - or - is the cannon simply a means for Starkiller to transport his own Force lightning into space? At the moment, it seems you are content at arguing whichever one benefits your point.

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

There are two ways to reconcile differences between the game platforms:

1. View them all as alternative pathways that nonetheless reflect plausible events that would have happened given different starting conditions and decisions.
2. Treat some as more valid than others, in which case you would obviously prefer the high-budget console versions with realistic visuals and significantly more attention and investment than the DS version that almost nobody has played.

Either way works for my case.


Your offers are unwarranted. We are in disagreement over what happens in the PC version: you argue that Starkiller powered the cannon, I argue that Starkiller reactivated the cannon. The fact the Nintendo DS version explicitly aligns with my interpretation further substantiates my case over yours since the Nintendo DS version appears to be specifically based on the PC version. That is all.

(Continued . . . )


__________________

"There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."

Last edited by Jaggarath on Mar 8th, 2018 at 08:01 AM

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 07:56 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

(Post 5 of 12)

(Continued . . . )

RE: THE WAR OF WILLS

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

Galen Marek is advancing on Sidious’s lightning. Guess who couldn’t do that? Yoda.


When I first read this, I thought you were joking . . . until the harsh reality dawned on me.

To point out the obvious, Yoda was physically blocked from moving forward. He is stuck on the outer edge of the Senate pod, blocked by a metal bar and a ledge (click for reference) (click for reference). Note I provided two pictures - one from the movie and one from a Legends sourcebook - in case the movie image was ineligible since this is a “Legends only” debate. Further, it is stated that Yoda not only absorbed, but “deflected” the Emperor’s lightning back at him. Guess who couldn’t do that? Galen Marek.

quote:
Source: Star Wars: Beware of the Sith (2012)

Yoda absorbed Sidious’ lightning strike and deflected it back at him.


quote:
Source: Star Wars: Jedi Battles (2013)

Using great concentration and focus, Yoda was able to absorb Sidious’ brutal Force lightning and deflect it back at him again.


quote:
Source: Star Wars: Mysteries of the Jedi (2011)

Yoda, who repulses deadly Sith lightning fired at him by Chancellor Palpatine.



Thus, the only comparison to be made between Yoda and Galen Marek does not favor your case.

--- --- ---

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

And Vader tanks it.

Being above Yoda isn’t enough to put Vader down with a suicide blast. It’s game over for Revan.


Since you were very vague about what this meant to you, I asked for further clarification on Google Hangouts and you stated, “well i would default to it being a durability feat but reserve the right to argue otherwise.” Thus, I will address it as a durability feat - -

-- and the main issue with it being a durability feat is its relevance. Despite surviving Galen Marek’s suicidal explosion, Marek still thrashed Darth Vader like a ragdoll with telekinesis, then as Starkiller brought Vader to his knees with Force lightning. Thus, strong durability has nothing to do with whether or not he can resist Revan’s Force attacks, but simply that the Force attacks may not significantly damage him. However, telekinetic attacks rarely physically hurt other Force-sensitives (inconsistent exceptions aside). They are mainly used to disrupt the flow of engagement, gain an upper-hand in battle, or outright subdue the opponent into defeat. This is likely how both Revan and Darth Vader will attempt to use the Force in combat - not by outright shattering their opponent into oblivion.

However, Darth Vader’s handling of the suicide explosion is not even that impressive. If you are going to use all three versions of The Force Unleashed interchangeably, I see no reason why I should limit myself unless you want to concede that the novelization trumps all other mediums. In the comic, the potency of the explosion is tested against a nearby Royal Guard. The results were . . . disappointing (click for reference). Although the Royal Guard obviously died, the explosion had little effect on the armor, leaving only scorch marches. Notice also a random stormtrooper in view, who likewise just has a few paint blemishes. I do not consider this “lowballing,” but rather objectively looking at the only way one can gauge its potency - the effects. As to how Galen Marek’s most potent attack could be so insignificant, it is likely that it was foremost concentrated against the Emperor. Note that Galen Marek holds onto the Emperor when the event happens, indicating the brunt of the energy transferred between them (click for reference). What follows simply appears to be a strong telekinetic wave (click for reference).

Plus, The Force Unleashed already defines the upper limits of Darth Vader’s durability: an exploding shield generator. I think you would agree that Galen Marek’s immediate explosion against the Emperor is far more potent than such, substianting my argument that the telekinetic wave that hit Darth Vader or the Royal Guard is in no way compatible with Marek’s initial release of energy.

quote:
Source: The Force Unleashed novelization (2008)

The apprentice ripped the energy field generator in the center of the room right out of the floor and hurled it at his former Master.

The generator exploded with greater force than he had expected
, throwing him and everyone else to the floor. The transparisteel dome shattered. Debris rained everywhere. The sound of the explosion rang in his ears for an unnaturally long time afterward.

He was the first to his feet, striding across the rubble to where Darth Vader lay face-forward, gravely wounded and stripped of his armor in places. Flesh and machinery showed through the gaps. Finally, some real blood was flowing.


--- --- ---

quote:
Source: The Return of Ben Kenobi (1982)

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(Image link for reference: https://i.imgur.com/yJYRGsY.png


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In the old Star Wars comics, an impersonator of Ben Kenobi detonates an explosion that destroys the upper portion of the Iron Tower. It is difficult to visibly tell, but the tower is not very large, since the imposter falls all the way to the ground yet lives long enough to say dying words to Luke Skywalker [4]. However, caught in the center of the explosion, Darth Vader is near-mortally wounded and left for dead. Years after publication, Star Wars Galaxy Magazine picked it up and wrote that Wrenga Jixton found the unconscious Darth Vader and nursed him back to health, emphasizing this is not just a one-off comic from the 80s but has repeated and deep impact on the lore. It is also mentioned in The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia (2008) and A New Hope: The Life of Luke Skywalker (2009).

This point is continued in the THAT’S SO REVAN! section.

(Continued . . . )


__________________

"There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 07:56 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

(Post 6 of 12)

(Continued . . . )

RE: SEDRISS UNLEASHED

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

Vader is clearly more powerful than Dooku:

Sedriss.

Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebels' Pinnacle Base.

-- Handbook 3: Dark Empire

You might wonder if this is only referring to disciples who were alive at a particular point in time, but it's actually referring to Sedriss's power after Vader's death, so if it references Vader it must also reference Dooku. We know this because Palpatine considers Sedriss to be "a moderate force sensitive, a capable errand boy, not the stuff of a true apprentice" (Jedi vs. Sith), which is hardly language that implies Sedriss at that point was on the level of, say, Jerec or even Mara Jade. So the quote has to be referring to Sedriss after Palpatine amps his power to the point where he can defeat Luke Skywalker.

Ergo, Vader > Dooku.


The opening crawl of Dark Empire II #1 states the Emperor “empowered” Sedriss “long before” his first clone death by Luke Skywalker and Leia Solo. However, the Emperor wrote that Sedriss “is not the stuff of a true apprentice” afterward, since the article thanks Sedriss for helping relocate his spirit into a second clone body. Thus, the Emperor would have factored Sedriss’ empowerment into his assessment. As to your point that Sedriss could defeat Luke Skywalker, that is clearly referring to him calling upon the charged energy of the atmosphere, since Luke instantly overpowered Sedriss in combat. Given the scan below, I cannot help but ask: have you ever even read Dark Empire?

quote:
Source: Star Wars: Dark Empire II 3: World of the Ancient Sith (1995)

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(Image link for reference: https://i.imgur.com/c5PwKch.png)


--- --- ---

quote:
Source: Star Wars: Handbook 3: Dark Empire (2000)

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(Image link for reference: https://i.imgur.com/c5PwKch.png)


With that in mind, the article is clearly discussing the dark side disciples under the role of Emperor Palpatine,” going into detail of how they were utilized and their varying levels of power within the context of the Galactic Empire. Constant references are even made to the “Empire,” “Imperial Court,” “campaign against the Jedi,” “dark side adepts,” etc. The quote is simply stating that Sedriss, while not as strong as a Dark Lord of the Sith like Darth Vader, was still the most formidable of all the dark side adepts Palpatine trained. Taking it to mean anything beyond that is willful ignorance. That is, unless you want to argue Dooku and Darth Maul are also “moderate Force sensitives” and “not the stuff of true apprentices,” which would be highly amusing albeit not entirely unexpected for you.

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

Minor Masterpiece

Here's what Sidious has to say about Vader:

Of all the monsters I have created, I still regard Darth Vader as something of a minor masterpiece. No, he was not an entirely alchemical creation, but he was my monster nevertheless. Even though he failed to live up to his full potential, there was much pleasure in transforming Anakin Skywalker from a bright-eyed, tousle-headed youth into the greatest Jedi killer of all time. Yes, he ultimately turned against his Master, as monsters sometimes do, but that was my fault, not his. Given the opportunity to create Vader again, I would, and with zeal.

-- Jedi Vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force


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The segment is specifically referring to the creation of alchemical monsters - or the warping of creatures into hideous dark side abominations. Palpatine muses that, while Darth Vader is obviously not a terentatek, he is similar in that Palpatine twisted the light-hearted Chosen One into a hideous, sociopathic Jedi killer. The context is literally right there. I even underlined it for you. How you can argue it applies to his other Sith apprentices is beyond me, but no, it has nothing to do with power whatsoever.

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

And given that Dooku is an equal match for TCW Windu:

Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground.

- Yoda: Dark Rendezvous


The statement is explicitly referring to lightsaber skill, so no.

quote:
Source: Star Wars: Yoda - Dark Rendezvous (2004)

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.


--- --- ---

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

…what?

Indeed, if Cronal has been amping Vastor, that makes the scaling even stronger..


I know that you never knew about the character until you looked him on Wookieepedia, but Cronal is not even a powerful Force user. The text explicitly correlates “the shadow nerve network of meltmassif lacing his body,” which is a strange substance that Cronal can manipulate and control with his mind and not some strange power-amplifying device, to Kar Vastor’s “fundamental connection to the Dark.” It is not saying that Kar Vastor’s Force powers are on par with Cronal’s. However, even if we want to rewrite the quote so it says, “Kar Vastor is far weaker than Cronal,” it does not matter since Kar Vastor is no longer on Haruun Kal.

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

RotJ Vader > ESB Vader > Gethzerion = threat to Palpatine


There is little distinction between the Emperor being “alarmed by [Gethzerion and the Nightsister’s] growing power and purposely stranded them on Dathomir,” and Palpatine being “troubled by Asajj Ventress' growing prowess with the dark side of the Force and commanding Count Dooku to eliminate her.” In fact, the quotes are eerily similar. The Emperor is intrinsically a character all about preserving his power and fearing betrayal, withholding knowledge from even the simpleton dark side adepts so that there is no conceivable way they could encroach him, so it is nowhere near as impressive as you make it out to be. Rest assured, if Revan was running around in the era, the Emperor would not be indifferent.

More importantly, the quotes placing Darth Vader above Gethzerion by way of Vader being the second most powerful individual in the galaxy are outright contradicted by Abeloth and Sekot, both of whom are undisputedly more powerful Vader. ” Thus, the quotes are literally false, carry no definitive value, and cannot be used.

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

You didn't think Kar Vastor was the only way to put Vader above TPM Mace, was it?


I hope not, for your sake.

(Continued . . . )


__________________

"There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 07:57 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

(Post 7 of 12)

(Continued . . . )

RE: KIND OF A FLUNKY

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

Wrong on two fronts. Firstly, Palpatine in the same train of thoughts was planning to replace Vader:. The point is that Palpatine is not operating in this particular passage under the assumption that he’ll reawaken Anakin’s potential, but still thinks Vader can grow powerful enough to challenge, if not surpass, him, a claim supported independently by several sources.

Secondly, it isn’t true that Palpatine changes his mind about Vader never being able to approach his power:

We have plenty of additional reasons to believe that Vader is (relatively) close to Palpatine by RotJ:


Darth Vader is ”relatively close” to the Emperor in Return of the Jedi? What are you talking about?

Foremost, the Emperor’s optimism about Darth Vader seems to quickly die off. The Emperor later writes that he is confident that Vader could ”never” succeed him, and is so disappointed in Vader’s situation that he is looking through a ”pool of minor wizards and political sycophants” for a replacement. That certainly does not indicate Vader has the raw potential of the Emperor.

quote:
Source: Vader: The Ultimate Guide (2005)

But Vader’s reconstruction was a mixed blessing for Palpatine. The Emperor had wanted an apprentice - he had not wanted a walking wound. Vader was barely able to stay alive without life support machinery and the brute force of the dark side. Because of his cyborg arms, Vader would never be able to hurl Force lightning. His suffocating body armor left him unable to perform the acrobatics that had made Darth Maul into the ultimate assassin . . .

In the Emperor’s eyes, Darth Vader was damaged. Palpatine secretly began looking for a replacement, expanding the ranks of his dark side adepts. From this pool of minor wizards and political sycophants, Palpatine hoped to raise the next Sith Lord.


quote:
Source: Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force (2007)

I regret Vader disappointed me early on when he allowed himself to be mutilated by Kenobi. Yes, Vader remained strong in the Force, but strong enough to succeed me? Never.


Second, Darth Vader’s own thoughts on the situations deteriorate as well. In Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, he believes that he will one day have powers equal to that of the Emperor. However, Vader eventually recognizes that ”he could not hope to defeat” and “had no reason to ever believe he could defeat” the Emperor. Again, if Vader’s raw potential was comparable to the Emperor’s power, then these statements would make no sense.

quote:
Source: Vader: The Ultimate Guide (2005)

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known . . .

Vader, who was all too aware of the Sith rule of two that mandated a single master and single apprentice at any time, had his own designs on Luke. Palpatine’s omniscience, however, had changed the rules of engagement. Vader no longer dared to entertain thoughts of rebellion, not when the Emperor seemed more powerful than ever before.


quote:
Source: The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader (2007)

But because Palpatine was so incredibly powerful, and despite several attempts, Vader learned that he had no reason to believe he could ever defeat the elder Sith Lord.


Lastly, so what? Even if we take the Emperor seriously and that Darth Vader’s potential is comparable to his own, why would that translate meaningfully into the fight? The Emperor also tells Darth Maul that, “Someday, you might become stronger than I," indicating Maul’s potential surpasses Vader’s. However, Maul’s applicable power is vastly below the Emperor, even despite decades of extensive training that likely far surpasses Vader’s own. Between The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, the Emperor telepathically brings Darth Vader to his knees. While this was an ambush attack, the sheer dominance displayed here - the Emperor sensing a rebellious thought from across the galaxy, then utterly crushing Vader - makes clear it clear that Vader never reaches a level of power comparable to that of the Emperor.


quote:
Source: Clone B-2332-54 (1994)

Suddenly, Vader was struck to his knees by the horribly powerful voice that rolled like fiery thunder through his brain. The pilots struggled vainly to ignore the Dark Lord's discomfort. "Yes, my servant," the voice boomed in his mind, dripping raw evil. "Come to Mount Tantiss, immediately. I shall meet you there, and we will discuss my new trophy."

"Yes...my Master," Vader gasped, feeling an icy stab of dread in his soul, as the Emperor's mocking chuckle still echoed in his mind. His Master had detected his rebellious thoughts. This discussion would be most unpleasant. Most unpleasant indeed.


--- --- ---

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

Thirdly, even if we temporarily take Lucas’s word as relevant to Legends, that lends credence to my point, as “20 percent less” than RotJ Sidious is pretty damn impressive, and I never said Vader would have surpassed Palpatine.



It amazes me that this argument still exists. No, that does not lend credence to your point since he uses “maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor” interchangeably with “he is like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.” Unless you want to argue all of them are close to the Emperor - and at this point I would not be surprised if you tried - whether or not he used “fifty” or “ninty” as the number is irrelevant. Besides, George Lucas saying Darth Vader’s ”not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky,” does not seem very Emperor-esque to me.

quote:
Source: George Lucas and the Cult of Darth Vader (2005)

So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind.


quote:
Source: Star Wars: The Last Battle (2005)
But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become.


(Continued . . . )


__________________

"There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 07:57 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

(Post 8 of 12)

(Continued . . . )

RE: OVERCOOKED BALAWAI MEATPIE

This section is divided into three difficult arguments.

1. KAR VASTOR’S POWER IS NEBULOUS
A. Is Haruun Kal a dark side nexus?
B. Is Kar Vastor the embodiment of the jungle?
C. Is Kar Vastor’s power difficult to gauge?
D. How reliable is Nick Rostu as a narrator?

2. MACE WINDU IS MORE POWERFUL THAN KAR VASTOR

3. THE CHERRY PICKER: A STAR WARS STORY

Between it all, this nonsense “Kar Vastor scaling” is thoroughly debunked.

1. KAR VASTOR’S POWER IS NEBULOUS

INTENT: Counter ”Darth Vader > Kar Vastor” scaling.

SUMMARY: Kar Vastor is independently a powerful Force user, but his legendary “raw power” comes from the limitless dark side energies of the jungle around him. This is beyond simply using a dark side nexus: Kar Vastor is the literal embodiment of jungle and intricately connected to its properties. However, the energies Kar Vastor calls upon never permanently rests within him, but rather flow or radiate in and out from him. As consequence, Kar Vastor can only use a finite amount of his “raw power” at once, and it is demonstrably impossible to get a proper gauge of his actual power. However, since I think my next two points end the debate, I relocated the argument to a separate document to save space: https://www.writeurl.com/publish/vl3k6z3ori516p7qoion.

--- --- ---

2. MACE WINDU IS MORE POWERFUL THAN KAR VASTOR

INTENT: Counter ”Kar Vastor > Mace Windu” scaling.

SUMMARY: Your entire case is dependent upon Kar Vastor being more powerful than Mace Windu. Even if Darth Vader is indeed more powerful than Kar Vastor, the point would only hold a grain of relevance if Kar Vastor is, in turn, more powerful than Mace Windu. However, note that almost everything we know about Kar Vastor’s power comes from Mace himself. The issue is that Mace has proven himself to be the mother of all unreliable narrators. Almost everything he says about Kar Vastor’s power relative to himself is demonstrably and quantifiably false. Thus, your “link” between Darth Vader and Revan is nonexistent.

quote:
Source: Star Wars: Shatterpoint (2003)

Vastor was younger, stronger, faster, and immensely more powerful, and he wielded weapons that could not be harmed by the Jedi blade.


A. FASTER?

Laughably false.

Mace Windu casually intercepts Kar Vastor’s attack, then releases him faster than Vastor can react:

quote:
Source: Star Wars: Shatterpoint (2003)

Vastor's immense left arm flashed at Nick in a blinding palm slap that would have taken his head right off before he could even blink-but that massive arm was intercepted by the heel of Mace's open hand.

Mace's fingers locked momentarily around Vastor's wrist.
"He's with me," he said, and before the lor pelek could react, he released Vaster and backhanded Nick off his feet.


Mace Windu strikes Kar Vastor a bajillion and one times, completely overwhelming him with raw speed:

quote:
Source: Star Wars: Shatterpoint (2003)

Without warning, Vastor's stalk became a lightning lunge, fingers hooked like talons, his arms sweeping wide to close on Mace once more-but Mace wasn't there anymore. A slight sidestep and a weave of his head snuck him to the outside of Vastor's lunge, and his fist whipped backhand to snap Vastor in the base of the skull as he passed: a knockout blow.

But Vastor must have felt it coming; he pitched forward, rolling with the punch so that it flipped him end for end. He landed in perfect balance and sprang again, straight up; the kick Mace had aimed at his kidneys only grazed his calf muscle. He used the impact to whirl in the air so that he could fall upon the Jedi Master like a branch leopard taking a tusker.

But what he fell upon was Mace's fist, driven upward into his solar plexus by the combined power of the Force and nearly fifty years of Jedi combat training.

Mace's hand sank in to the wrist, and Vastor's fighting snarl became an agonized struggle for breath.
Mace used the Force to hurl him off and send him tumbling through the air to slam into the flank of an agitated akk dog. Eyes glazing, half stunned, the lor pelek slid bonelessly down the akk's armored ribs, and staggered as his feet skidded over gnarled roots.

Before he could find his balance, Mace was on him. "Impressed yet?"

Standing toe to toe, the top of Mace's head barely came to the level of Vastor's chin, and you could have tucked Mace's whole thick-muscled upper body inside Vastor's chest with room to spare. And even hurt, lurching drunkenly, Vaster still could whip his arms in blindingly fast raking slaps at Mace's head and wounded neck. But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected.

Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times: two thundering hooks to his short ribs, a knee slamming hard into the same thigh he'd hit before, an elbow snapping up to the point of his chin, and two devastating palm strikes to either hinge of his jaw.


An ordinary man would have been unconscious. Vastor seemed to be getting stronger.

Vastor fired another of those blinding slaps. This time, instead of ducking, Mace countered with a whirring hook that met the lor peleks swinging arm directly on the nerve that ran up the inside of the biceps. Vastor threw the other even harder-which only made the inside of that arm connect that much harder with Mace's counterhook.

Vastor's mighty arms spasmed and dropped limply to his sides.
"This is called Vaapad, Kar." A fierce light burned in Mace's eyes. "How many arms do you see?"

Then he hit Vastor twice in the nose before the lor pelek could even blink.

Vastor howled in pain and raging disbelief, falling back against the akk dog's flank once more, twisting and turning to try to find some way to avoid the Jedi's flashing hands.

Mace stayed with him, pinning him to the akk's flank, fists whirling through Vaapad flurries, striking not to disable or to kill, but instead to hurt: stinging flicks to soft tissue, smashing ears and nose, stabbing up under the chin.


B. IMMENSELY MORE POWERFUL?

As outlined above, Kar Vastor has near-infinite raw power, so if Mace Windu is referring to that then the statement is obviously accurate. However, if we take it as combat applicable power - the only relevant basis you can argue Darth Vader’s superiority in - then it is simply not true. Mace Windu consistently rivals Kar Vastor’s telekinetic power on Haruun Kal, even despite being vastly hindered by a dark side nexus.

The two collide in a war of physical strength and Force energy with neither gaining the upper hand:

quote:
Source: Star Wars: Shatterpoint (2003)

The lor pelek crouched and lowered one hand to the ground, digging in the leaf mold, his sweat-glistening chest heaving, breath pumping darkness into him and out again. Gathering rage. Gathering power.

Vastor's reply was the snort of a hunting akk. Jungle rules. A burst of power launched the lor pelek as a human missile, clawing his way through the twilight toward the Jedi Master.

Jungle rules it is, then, Mace thought, and leapt to meet him in midair.

They collided with a crash that shook the jungle around them. The collision was not just of two human bodies, but of two node-channels of the Force: invisible energy crackled, and vivid blue gap-sparks arced from leaf to leaf in the canopy above.


Mace Windu casually replicates Kar Vastor’s telekinetic power:

quote:
Source: Star Wars: Shatterpoint (2003)

He bounded off into the air-And Vaster's Force grip seized him again.

Vaster was on his feet now, and his arms didn't seem hurt at all. His blood-smeared mouth spread wide in a howl of triumph as he yanked Mace through the multicolored glowvine-shaded night, pulling him in while he opened his arms for that lethal embrace.

Mace thought: Well, if you insist...

Instead of resisting or grounding the power of Vastor's Force grip, Mace added his own strength to it. The speed of his flight suddenly doubled; Vastor had only time to widen his eyes in dismay as Mace flipped headfirst in the air.


You argued in your last post that I was “cherry picking” Mace Windu’s advantages over Kar Vastor, then cited Vastor telekinetically influencing Mace twice. However, the first time took Mace by surprise, and the second was a direct continuation of the first attack. Besides, Mace can likewise do the same in return:

quote:
Source: Star Wars: Shatterpoint (2003)

Vaster was still in the air, and Nick was still twisting to track him with his blazing pistol, when Mace Windu whipped his arms straight and shouted, "Stop!"

The Force blasts that accompanied the Jedi Master's command clubbed Nick to the ground and sent Vaster spinning against the mountain's face above the cave.


(Continued . . . )


__________________

"There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 07:57 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

(Post 9 of 12)

(Continued . . . )

3. THE CHERRY PICKER: A STAR WARS STORY

As a *final* point, Fact File, which is what you are using to argue Mace Windu and Yoda are the two most powerful Jedi to ever walk the Jedi Temple circa The Phantom Menace, also writes in issue #59 that Mace Windu has powers on par with those of the venerable Yoda” [11]. Therefore, Revan being below Mace in the same source that puts Mace an equal to Yoda is by no means a disgrace. However, do you really want to publicly argue that Darth Vader two months after Revenge of the Sith is vastly more powerful than Yoda as of The Phantom Menace/Attack of the Clones? Well, you already are, but I do not think you understood the full ramifications of your argument until now. The fact is you cannot simultaneously use Fact File to argue Mace Windu is above Revan without also admitting Mace Windu is on par with Yoda [11].

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Frankly, it should just be self-evident that this quote is false, regardless of author intent. There is a consistent trend of 19 BBY Darth Vader struggling against every named and unnamed Jedi he comes across. The idea that he can struggle so significantly against the likes of Sha Koon yet be Mace Windu or Yoda’s superior is absurd! There is nothing to be ashamed about regarding 19 BBY Darth Vader - no one expects him to be powerful a few weeks or month after Mustafar. Simply put, the author is wrong to claim 19 BBY Darth Vader is comparable, yet alone superior, to the high tiers. So, please, stop acting like some cripple who gets “speed-blitzed” by characters you cannot even Google since they have no name is grossly more powerful than one of the most prodigal, masterful, and accomplished Force users in history. I look forward to either your concession or the header of your next post being: “Can Yoda even hurt Vader? 19 BBY Darth Vader >>> Yoda scaling.” your concession.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

THE POWER OF MUUR COMPELS YOU

Your rebuttal makes no sense. Yes, the mechanisms of the talisman converts the raw power inside to a plague that turns individual into rakghouls. The issue is that Darth Vader knew this going into the fight with Celeste Moure. This is not any grand revelation to him. The text stating Darth Vader feels the power of the Muur Talisman blatantly means he senses its energies. The talisman is a powerful dark side nexus, but as explained in my first post, it is vastly inferior to the Star Map, let alone the Star Forge. Your argument that Celeste Morne is more powerful than Karness Muur because she can resist his telepathic temptations is ludicrous. There is a noted distinction in Muur’s telepathic effects between those who call upon his power and those who do not, hence why Celeste is so fearful of using the Muur Talisman. Then, you allege that Darth Vader plans to raise an army of rakghouls to kill the Emperor, which is the farthest reaching theory I have ever seen. We outright see a picture immediately after the hypothetical battle with no rakghouls anywhere.

You propose three possible reasons for why Darth Vader thinks Karness Muur’s power will raise him above the Emperor: he underestimates the Emperor, overestimates himself, or overestimates Muur. Of the three, the third option is the one we can most quickly eliminate since Vader muses he can overthrow the Emperor after outright sensing the energies of the Muur Talisman. There is a direct cause and effect. Unlike Force users, where their auras may not reflect their abilities and it is difficult to gauge the reserves of their power, a concentration of dark side energies in a talisman should be incredibly easy to sense. Next, Vader is clearly not overestimating himself, since he figures he would be subservient to Muur. That leads us to Vader underestimating the Emperor’s power . . . You cite the Mace Windu fight, but that is actually a perfect example of why this would be the case: Palpatine feigns weakness relative to Mace and Anakin completely eats it up.

Again, this is another rebuttal to your crazed idea that Darth Vader as early as 19 BBY could defeat Revan. That clearly is not the case when Karness Muur is at least around Vader’s level, if not significantly above, yet is vastly inferior to Darth Malak.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

RE: A HINT OF NOTHING

There is no question that Galen Marek is an absurdly powerful Force user. That is the whole premise of the character, explained in-universe by him having the Force potential of Luke Skywalker himself. However, unlike Luke, Darth Vader specifically trained Galen ”in such a way they he just kept pushing his limitations, seeing how far he could use the Force,” or, in other words, to unleash his raw power must effectively and dramatically. The awesome displays of power you cited are visible manifestations of this. We see a similar situation with Anakin Skywalker circa Attack of the Clones, who despite being intentionally suppressed and capped by Jedi restraints and fear, has moments that few other beings in the galaxy could replicate. For example, Anakin holds back a theta storm, despite Obi-Wan noting hat he was “not certain that Yoda himself could've held this wretched storm back the way you did, for as long as you did.” I fail to see the correlation with Darth Vader, however. In case you have not noticed, a central premise of Vader’s character is that he does not have the Force potential of Luke Skywalker. Nowhere near, actually. In contrast, the whole justification of Galen Marek’s feats is that his raw strength is of the highest tier and has been meticulously trained for unleashing such power.

quote:
Source: Star Wars Insider 100

"The Apprentice is the photo negative of Luke Skywalker. He's been raised by Darth Vader, and is what Luke would have become if he had joined his father. Vader's not a very nice daddy. This guy has been raised to be a Jedi. When the Jedi use the Force, they respect it and don't overuse it. The bad guys - the Sith - keep testing their limits. Vader discovered this person who had the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever. He's up there with the top tier. He's extremely powerful. Vader has trained him in such a way that he just kept pushing his limitations, seeing how far he could use the Force. So, where a normal Jedi might use the Force to trick his way past a few stormtroopers, the apprentice might use the Force to bring down an adjacent building on top of those stormtroopers. He's extremely confident in everything he does. He's been trained by Vader to be an assassin, an unstoppable force."


--- --- ---

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

Blasted away thousands of droids at once:


My immediate problem with using feats where Galen Marek draws deep into himself or uses the Force for extended periods of time is that, given the enormous raw power disparity, it is difficult to ascribe to Vader. Also, the quote reads, ”He began to tire, not from exertion but from the tedium of knocking down droid after droid, to no apparent end. There might have been thousands of them,” so it is curious why you neglected the ”might” part, especially since the context more-than-likely not being literal but rather a textbook example of exasperated hyperbole (i.e. “There are so many of them. Maybe thousands!”) Regardless, it is a solid showing for Galen that he Force pushed an undefined amount of destroyed droids plus an undefined amount of barely functioning droids for an undefined amount of time and continuous effort, but it is by no means unprecedented. Nevertheless, I would wager early-career Darth Malgus being vastly above a Jedi that non-chantilly brings down two buildings on top of him is comparably impressive and far easier to directly scale to Revan.

quote:
Source: The Last Lesson

The Jedi held his ground. At twenty meters, the Jedi raised his lightsabers aloft to either side and drew them both down with a flourish.

Too late the rumble of the falling buildings penetrated the haze of Malgus's anger. An avalanche of duracrete and transparisteel crashed down on him from either side of the street.

Malgus stood in a pocket under a mountain of rubble, legs bent, the power from his upraised hands preventing several tons of duracrete and steel from crushing him. Dust made his already troubled breathing more difficult. He coughed as the words of his father echoed in his mind.


(Continued . . . )


__________________

"There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 07:57 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

(Post 10 of 12)

(Continued . . . )

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

Powered a several hundred meter long's ship's engines:


I have no clue where you got ”several hundred meter long” from. That is stated nowhere. As to why it would take ”hours” for Galen Marek to get around, that is because it is blocking the entrance, not that it is infinitely tall and wide despite just being a ”corvette”. As to the actual feat itself, it is obviously good, but I do have the same issues with it as the last: it is prolonged and raw power dependent, so Vader’s relation to it is shaky. Besides, Darth Jadus holding half of a 600 meter Harrower-class Dreadnought together with telekinesis is better.

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

Casually blew a tie-fighter sized hole in said ship

Note that the AotC: ICS says that the hulls of Acclamator troop-transports can no-sell nuclear fusion warheads.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLBOn0Whhyc

Why are you comparing capital ships to a terribly damaged corvette?

--- --- ---

There is a generally acknowledged inconsistency in Darth Vader’s power around 0 BBY. The Force Unleashed paints him as quite impressive, but all other the sources have him struggling against the Dark Woman, losing to Darth Maul, quasi-stalemating old Ben Kenobi, and struggling against Luke Skywalker circa The Empire Strikes Back. In other words, Vader is a total shadow of his former self. Generally this is poorly explained by out-of-universe reasoning - that suddenly everyone decided to make Vader far more powerful and the low showings should be ignored. However, this is an in-universe, quote-driven argument why the Galen Marek shenanigans does not add up. To preface, when dealing with young Force prodigies, there is a strange consistency that mindset is everything. Take Vaylin, take Anakin Skywalker, and take Kyp Durron as case-and-point examples of this. Galen Marek is completely in the same boat.

quote:
Source: Star Wars: The Force Unleashed comic (2008)

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(Image link for reference: https://i.imgur.com/R6o3oFr.png


On Kashyyyk, Galen Marek walks into the hut where he grew up and sees a vision of his father’s death. Galen notes that he had never considered that he once had a family - that he had exclusively seen himself as the apprentice of Darth Vader: ”He hadn't realized that there had even been a him to think of outside his relationship with Darth Vader. He had imagined himself simply made, somehow, one of his Master's stranger biological experiments, with no parents and no home but the one he remembered.” After this recognition that he is something more than just Vader’s servant, PROXY notes an immediate and tremendous increase in Galen’s power. Galen reflects back on this on route to the Death Star and concludes that this he has always had this power. Galen has difficulty accepting this, again noting that he had never seen himself as anything greater than the apprentice of Vader.

quote:
Source: Star Wars: The Force Unleashed novelization (2008)

On Raxus Prime, when he had tried to call on the naive audacity of the boy he had once been to bring down the Star Destroyer, nothing had stirred in him. No memories, no buried personalities, no hidden strength. He had worried at that fact ever since, wondering if his vision on Kashyyyk had been mistaken after all, or if Galen had been so thoroughly erased that no vestige of him remained.

But now he understood. When he had turned to Juno at the base of the cliff and told her his name, it had been him telling her, not the ghost of his former self. Galen had ignored his summons on Raxus Prime because he was already there. He had possessed the strength to do what he needed to do. He always had. It was Galen as much as Darth Vader's apprentice who had invoked the thought of Juno to make him strong. They were one and the same person.

He still couldn't think of himself that way. He had been nothing but an apprentice for all his conscious life. It might be years before he was completely free of his Master's taint, if he survived that long . . .


--- --- ---

quote:
Source: Star Wars: The Force Unleashed comic (2008)

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(Image link for reference: https://i.imgur.com/vBThbGm.png)


Read the dialogue exchange between Darth Vader and Galen Marek posted with the above context in mind. In the novelizaityon, after the first exchange of attacks, Galen Marek is amazed that he is fighting a battle of ”equals” against Darth Vader, yet Galen is still constraining his mindset here - still thinking himself relative to Vader. As the fight progresses, so too does his confidence. As he begins to make jabs at Vader, there is a noticeable improvement in skill, since he is freeing himself from Vader’s psychic hold. When Galen finally realizes “a way to finish the job,” he efficiently wins the fight: repels his telekinetic attack with one of far greater Force, defeats him in lightsaber combat, and thrashes him around with the Force. The comic demonstrates this point best, with Galen kicking Vader to the curb - figuratively and literally - after rejecting Vader tries to place himself about Galen.

quote:
Source: Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II (2010)

Slowly a dark understanding began to form. All the duels, all the tests, all the torturous mind games, had been to ensure his survival against every opponent-bar one. His Master. In a sense, they were still playing out the first time they had faced each other in combat.

He didn't remember the early days of his apprenticeship, when the memories of his parents had been strong and the young boy he had once been resisted Vader's absolute authority, but he was sure the battle had been even then, psychological. The battle would never cease until one of them won.


Overall, Galen Marek’s base power is unfathomable, which is unsurprising given his Force potential. In fact, The Essential Reader’s Companion outright states it to be ”unfathomable” despite Darth Vader being in the same sentence. Galen was trained to maximize these powers in battle to defeat any opponent”-bar one. His Master.” Vader’s years of psychological conditioning has curbed Galen’s potency by making himself (Vader) intrinsic and indispensable to Galen. Before switching sides, there is even a noticeable trend of Galen justifying his power by being the apprentice of Vader. For example, in the corvette feat you cited above, he begins by thinking, ”A slow smile crept across his face. Why be coy? He was the apprentice of Darth Vader and a servant of the dark side. It didn't pay to creep about in fear of raising his head.” Later, as he first starts to bring down the Star Destroyer, his first thought is, ”Had his Master ever done anything like this?” Galen may be able to defeat any opponent, but the sheer thought of being comparable to Vader in power never seems to even cross Galen’s mind until he frees himself from Vader’s control. Until that point, his thoughts were a direct, “since Vader is all-powerful, I am powerful” line-of-thinking.

Tl;dr: Galen can’t beat Vader because he doesn’t believe in himself. When he believes he can beat Vader, Vader gets punked.

Therefore, it is difficult even to entertain the notion that Darth Vader can replicate Galen Marek’s later feats. Not only is that pure assumption on your part, but it seems to go against the core philosophical insight of the story: that Galen was always better than Vader. Vader retains his dominance throughout much of the story through persona, intelligence, planning, conditioning, and mastery, not raw power. In instances like the Star Destroyer feat, where Galen is drawing deep into near-limitless Force reserves, it is clear that not Vader (nor Revan) has any chance of matching him. Besides, Galen outright telekinetically dominates Vader on the Death Star. The novelization even draws a comparison between it and Darth Vader’s handling of Kento Marek. Ouch. The common rebuttal is that Darth Vader was injured, but that does not remotely justify the event. Darth Vader’s cybernetic injuries would not affect his Force barrier capabilities, and the only possible flesh-based injury that Vader had was ”a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder”. However, since his shoulder guards are highly resistant to lightsaber strikes, I question if this attack even broke skin, let alone meaningfully affected his ability to draw on the Force.

All of this should already be apparent when Galen Marek is bringing down Star Destroyers yet The Force Unleashed II defines Vader’s cap at holding back a TIE fighter though.

(Continued . . . )


__________________

"There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 07:58 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

(Post 11 of 12)

(Continued . . . )

THAT’S SO REVAN!

DURABILITY AND FORCE DEFENSES:

You made a fatal mistake trying to argue Darth Vader has greater durability than Revan. The issue with an X versus Revan durability comparison is that Revan will always either match or surpass his opponent. Revan dies on the Foundry; in Shadow of Revan, he powers and holds his body together through sheer force of will. As a result, he is essentially and demonstrably nigh-indestructible, since Darth Vader would need to unleash an attack potent enough to break Revan’s will over his body and cause lasting injury. The issue is even superweapons have tried and failed this. Since you referenced already referenced the scripted events from the Temple of Sacrifice, and have constantly used game mechanics throughout the debate, there should be no issue bringing it up here.

Revan channels the Machine Core’s power, an ancient Sith device with world-destroying potency, into himself in an attempt to damage/destroy all life in a one kilometer radius. This includes the strike team facing him and likely large portions of the Revanite, Massassi, Jedi, and Sith armies nearby. However, the strike team interrupts his quasi-ritual, causing Revan to lose control of the energies. The power ”overloads” or ”backlashes” inside of him, with the animation showing Force energy brutally course throughout this body. However, Revan near-instantly gets back on his feet and continues fighting, simply noting, “No! I won’t be denied!” Given the power he was wielding, this attack should have instantly disintegrated him, yet his will was unfazed.

Shortly thereafter, the Machine Core becomes an unstable and “violent maelstrom of twisted force essence. indiscriminately striping” Revan’s “life force.” However, this has no effect on Revan, who appears to casually resist it with a Force barrier, continues conjuring dark side aberrations, and yells, "You may have put an end to this plan, but so long as I have breath, I will have my vengeance!" With Darth Vader’s defenses and defenses capping out with an exploding shield generator and the Iron Tower, there is little comparison to be made. Vader does not have the power to mimic or surpass the two attacks listed above, but Revan has the power to defend against such in battle. Also, as to your nonsense Vitiate argument, this is Shadow of Revan we are talking, not Revan Revan. While I will not go into details about the Force lightning square off yet, Revan Reborn falling to the ground after getting hit with lightning is not indicative of Shadow of Revan’s durability whatsoever.

--- --- ---

quote:
Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force (2007)

These creatures have become such an irritation that every time I see one I want to strike it down with my lightsaber. Be that as it may, I interviewed a Toydarian subject who showed a great amount of resistance to Force suggestion, up to the point that I created physical discomfort. I found that they can be easily intimidated by a demonstration of strength. And it proved relatively simple to cause it to expire, merely by making its existence extremely painful. Ultimately, though it showed a great degree of willpower, it was no match for the power of the Force.


TELEPATHY:

This is the most direct comparison we have between Revan and Darth Vader in ability and power. Vader notes in Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force that he failed to mindtrick a Toydarian without using a great deal of his power and telekinetic pressure. By itself, this is not a bad showing: Toydarians have evolved through millenia to be naturally resistant to the Force. However, when Revan visited Lehon as a Sith Lord, he telepathically dominated over a thousand highly-Force resistant Rakata, individuals that are likewise biologically resistant. Revan ripped the Rakatan language from the Black and Red Rakata tribes, then drove Basic into all their minds.

As to the point that it was all the Rakata and not just The One and the Elder Tribe, every Red and Black Rakatan encountered in Knights of the Old Republic are incredibly fluent in understanding Basic. The notion that they taught Basic to each other ignores the fact that the Rakata are an wholly isolated group of primitives with no contact with the outside world and believed Revan had permanently left them. Simply put, there is no reason why such lessons would be taught, especially among “the thousand” of Black Rakata who are savage, cavemen-esque barbarians who only care about destroying the Red Rakata.

Overall, simply influencing one Rakakta is a blatant demonstration of superiority over Vader, but by also using a far more advanced variant of the practice against an incredibly larger force show shows Revan’s in a league beyond Vader. It is highly probable that Revan can use telepathy and sorcery to gain or maintain the upper-hand against Vader in the fight. As demonstrated in The Force Unleashed II and Dynasty of Evil, Vader only needs to be affected for a split second for the consequence to be lethal. However, given their vast distinction in telepathic and Force ability, and Vader having little feats to indicate otherwise, it is highly probable Revan outright shatters Vader to the floor with telepathy.

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--- --- ---

quote:
Source: Darth Plagueis (2012)

A human Sith Lord whose short reign had elapsed some five centuries earlier, Gravid had been persuaded to believe that total commitment to the dark side would sentence the Sith Order to eventual defeat, and so had sought to introduce Jedi selflessness and compassion into his teachings and practice, forgetting that there can be no return to the light for an adept who has entered the dark wood; that the dark side will not surrender one to whom, by mutual agreement, it has staked a claim. Driven increasingly mad by his attempts to straddle the two realms, Gravid became convinced that the only way to safeguard the future of the Sith was to hide or destroy the lore that had been amassed through the generations-the texts, holocrons, and treatises-so that the Sith could fashion a new beginning for themselves that would guarantee success.


quote:
Source: Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan (2011)

Revan had learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength.

Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in it's purest form. There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering.


quote:
Source: Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia (2012)

"Three centuries ago, Revan wielded the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies.”


quote:
Source: Star Wars: New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force (2003)

As his grandfather had done, he had broken through the apparent opposites that concealed the absolute nature of the Force, and found his way into an unseen unity that existed beyond the seeming separateness of the world. For a moment all the cosmic tumblers had clicked into place, and light and dark sides became something he could balance within himself, without having to remain on one side or the other.


FORCE IN BALANCE:

My apologies for the quote spam, but all of them are important. Darth Gravid, a mid-lineage Banite Sith, was driven to insanity trying to ”straddle” and merge Jedi and Sith philosophy. However, Revan successfully learned to achieve this and use both sides simultaneously. This is drastically underrated, since it is a demonstration of knowledge and mastery of the intricacies of the Force unreplicated by any other Jedi or Sith, despite even Banite Sith trying. Further, this grants Revan immeasurable power, since he can essentially enter a state otherwise only achievable in Oneness at will, as highlighted with The Unifying Force. On the Foundry, Revan focuses his Balance attack inwards and becomes radically more powerful, with the game noting, "Revan has become more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of” and “Revan has become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.” While these statements are obvious hyperbole in reference to Revenge of the Sith, they nonetheless reveal that Revan can radically heighten his own powers at will for a period of time.

(Continued . . . )


__________________

"There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 07:58 AM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

(Post 12 of 12)

(Continued . . . )

quote:
Originally posted by The Ellimist

Most of your arguments here aren’t wrong so much as they are…pointless. I mean, you’re trying to match one-shotting an imperial star destroyer, one-shotting thousands of droids with a single burst of telekinesis, bringing down an imperial star destroyer, walking through Sidious’s lightning, with….


SCALING:

I do not need to match anything; you have hardly presented me with one actual feat for Darth Vader this entire debate. Vader cannot do any of the things you listed, nor is mockery an argument. You fail to address Queen Amanoa’s feat of unleashing Waves of Hatred that engulf a city and devastate thousands of Beast Riders, which alone is frankly more impressive than anything Vader has shown. If Amanoa can do that by drawing off the residual energy of Freedon Nadd’s tomb, we can quickly and definitively conclude Nadd himself could replicate it to a much greater proportion and effect. Then, we have Darth Malak, who is ”far greater” than Nadd, yet Revan can break him many times over. This direct, applicable power-only line of scaling yields Revan as a Force user ways beyond Vader’s paygrade. Although it is hard to reconcile telekinesis with other abilities, I fail to see Vader likewise affecting thousands with his raw power and hatred, let alone doing it many, many times over like Revan can. Or, we can look at Exar Kun, who Revan is also ”far greater than”. As you know, Exar has frozen tens of thousands individually instantly and is “far more powerful” than Jedi who can ”buckle” Ryloth heat storms. The fact the Jedi were affected by the Force stasis is irrelevant to the point Exar handily affected such a large population so effectively. Vader has never shown power on such a scale.

POWER:

However, scaling can any take you so far. Let us take a look at Revan’s power. I admit, Revan may not have a lot of environmental telekinetic feats. However, what he does have, which I find far more combat applicable, is raw dominance of some of the most powerful Force users in history. Darth Nyriss is an incredibly underrated Sith. Nyriss had refined her mastery of the Sith arts for decades, gaining an understanding of the ancient arts that was beyond Scourge’s ability to fathom. Simple bursts of her lightning were potent enough that Meetra Surik and Scourge - two very formidable opponents - opted not to handle it with their lightsabers but rather by completely jumping out of the way from it. It was also capable of instantly turning two guards to charred husks. Nyriss stood over the beaten Meetra and Scourge and charged her energy for an immense Force lightning storm. The text notes that this attack would had “incinerated” them both, which is a display of Force lightning against other individuals only demonstrably surpassed by Vitiate and the Emperor themselves.

Despite this, Revan, who had just been in prison, tortured, and injected with Force-hindering drugs for three years, walks up, absorbs the Force lightning, then deflects it back at her as if it was nothing. Look at how the Essential Reader’s Companion describes it: ”Revan’s raw power in the Force bends Nyris’s Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord.” Note that this is a defense that requires one to outright summon their energies, as shown by Revan needing to do so against Vitiate later on. Thus, Revan is capable of summoning such destructive energy that he can disintegrate Darth Nyriss-tier opponents, even when they are armed with a lightsaber, instantly. Said power is applicable in a combat situation, given the circumstances of his feat mirrored that with what would present itself on the battlefield (i.e. only having a fraction of a second to unleash your power). Furthermore, when one considers that Revan was certainly not in his best shape, performed the feat without any indication of strain, and is perhaps before his prime in Shadow of Revan, this feat is simply monstrous. The fact is only a few beings have shown raw power comparable to this, and Darth Vader is certainly not on that list.

And then there is Revan turning Darth Marr and Satele Shan into helpless fidget spinners, but I will give you some fresh air and wait until next post for that juicy story.

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--- --- ---

I have a proposal for you: show me a feat by Darth Vader comparable to beating down a Force titan radically beyond the Jedi Exiles and far more powerful than Exar Kun multiple times in a row after fighting through armies of Dark Jedi and Star Forge enhanced war droids while hindered by one of the most potent dark side nexus’ in history and I will clock him at Knights of the Old Republic Revan level. When we get to Shadow of Revan, it is difficult to even form a proposal since Revan has taken the level of power described, perfected it to wield both sides of the Force simultaneously, and is now quasi-invincible with telepathic powers Vader cannot hope to stand again. And unfortunately, being telekinetically dominated by Galen Marek and blasted to submission by an hilariously exhausted Starkiller does not qualify as a counter. How about you use his fights against Darth Maul Ben Kenobi Luke Skywalker -- oh, right, sorry, nevermind. At this point, it might be less embarrassing if you just made one up, since Vader has nothing but empty hype and false promises.



__________________

"There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 07:58 AM
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ILS
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“The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 11:14 AM
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Haschwalth
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S_W_LeGenD
I am LeGenD

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The Force is strong with DarthAnt66.

Old Post Mar 8th, 2018 02:04 PM
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