Crash> THAT first comment of yours was HILAROUS! I swear
Burlyman> Yes, we seem to all be able to agree that the Merovingian trapped Neo. The question is HOW? In another thread we discussed if we’re to take the Persephone/Hades allegory literal? Do ALL programs pass through the Underworld (aka Club Hell, Mobil Ave) on their way to the Source? Is that how the Mero becomes a haven for exiles? But even if that’s the case, how did Neo end up there?
He jacked out at the end of Reloaded. He talked to Trin, Link and Morph. How did he leave a residual residual self image behind?
Simplepriest> I agree the little girl does seem to fit in with all that WE know. But your average movie-goer doesn’t play ETM or read the comics. Up until the imprisonment. If the mother of the child is one of the Oracles “children” (The Oracle mentions them in M1 “I’ll get one of my kids to fix it” (the vase)), or just someone we’ve seen before I’m a happy camper.
See, if the little girl could be the Oracles programmed grand-daughter I see something emerging which would fit nicely: Namely the idea, that perhaps Rama (Indian God name, reincarnation and stuff like it) and his wife (Krishna?) has managed to create a program and plug it INTO an actual human pod. Such a child would be VERY important to both machines and humans.
Rys> But Neo is wearing the blindfold on and off, so it doesn’t look as if he’s eyes are injured (until what would probably be late in the movie, flying towards 01 or the battery towers).
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
Crash> From the comic about Hope I haven't been able to deduce WHAT that child is, save that she can apparently change her shape. I don’t know if that’s a program in a child or not or a prototype. Shape-changing in the real world is a little… weird. (Waits for JediHDM to announce his MWTM theory )
But Rama and his wife MAY have done that. With Smith/Bane we know it’s possible for an AI to get downloaded into a human.
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
she didnt change her shape in the real world, did she? I thought she only changed her shape in the matrix. If she DID change her shape in Real, then..
"then what"
"then you already know what im going to say, dont you?"
JediHDM> Ah. Yes. My mistake. I remember I initially thought it took place in the real word, because of Link and the reference to dragons (used to refer to Sentinels in ANOTHER comic).
Then someone was kind enough to point out that the comic-Link wasn’t the movie-link, and the comic was deduced to take place in the Matrix.
I did find some info on Ramachandra (yes, Rama is short for Ramachandra), but I think I'll post it in the appropriate thread
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
Ok... Simple here, taking another crack at these new trailers. "Oh what is it this time..." Good question. This is about the whole sequence of events surrounding Neo and his blindfold. We've all been trying to figure it out, put it all in order, and come up with some ideas about what's going on. Well, to make a long story, not as long, I took an in depth look at things again and I came up with some ideas. So... errhm... here they are:
Before I can start into this segment I have to point out something interesting that has to do with the last segment (Mobil Ave, Hel Club, and Neo). When Neo goes to see the Oracle he's in the same clothes as when he was in Mobil Ave. This seems to suggest that he saw her After he was freed from Limbo, but Before he jacked out --OR-- Before he got in Limbo and Before he jacked out. I imagine he sees her After he is freed from Limbo, but it certainly is possible to go either way. One hypothetical scenario might go like this:
Neo stops the Sentinels (either through his Bluetooth wireless technology, or through the fact that it's a MWAM -- depending on which school of thought you subscribe to). However, doing that is a huge shock to his system, and it sends him into a coma. Or perhaps (and this is kinda interesting) because his eyes aren't covered, his brain shuts down because he's getting too much information. (I imagine this is gonna be the explanation for the blindfold) So as we said, his brain is still connected to the Matrix and his residual self is stuck there, while his body remains in the "real" world (again depending on how you think). And... he is NOT physically jacked in. I think this may be because his brain was "confused/stuck" when he started to fry the sentinels. His mind was receiving information from both worlds, so his brain/residual self image just "picked one," which in this case was the Matrix (does this sound kinda flakey... well, I'll finish anyhow). Because of his "bad startup," he's dropped into Limbo, kinda like a Safe Mode start for Windows. But, like I said... I'm really making a big guess here. Please, if you guys find any merit to this idea (especially those of you who know more about computers) feel free to tear this apart or refine it as necessary.
Ok, well, when he does talk to the Oracle (whenever that may be) they have the discussion we've all heard on the clips:
(International Trailer> 0:00 to 0:17)
Oracle: Everything that has a beginning has an end. I see the end coming. I see the darkness spreading. I see death.
(International Trailer> 0:38 to 0:47)
Oracle: And you are all that stands in his way. If you cannot stop him tonight than I fear that tomorrow may never come.
(Final Trailer> 1:15 to 1:24)
Neo: Can Zion be saved?
Oracle: Tonight the future of both worlds will be in your hands, or in his.
(Power TV spot> 0:06 to 0:15)
Oracle: Soon he will have the power to destroy this world
Neo: And if I can't stop him.
Oracle: Than I fear that tomorrow may never come.
(Enemy TV spot> 0:10 to 0:14)
Oracle: One way or another, this war is going to end.
*Please note that these speeches are assumed to be to Neo, as we do not see them both together in the same scene. Also, note that some editing was probably done for effect. For example, the Oracle apparently says the same line in the second and fourth quote that I've listed. So, these quotes are to be taken with a grain of salt*
Ok, well as flakey as my suggestion may have been for the Limbo part of things, we DO know that Neo is connected to the Matrix even though he isn't plugged in. We get this information from the newly released behind the scenes clips on IGN(http://filmforce.ign.com/matrix/art....html?fromint=1). And when all is said and done, Neo and crew all jack out of the Matrix, leaving us in the "real" world. NOTE: At this point Neo's eyes are not hurt and he does not have a blindfold on. Also, at this point they will be playing a nice healthy game of musical ships, and since I don't really have enough to try to say "who's on what ship at what time" I'm not going to guess. Maybe I'll try to figure that out later, but I don't really see much hope in being able to figure that out yet... so... moving on...
Ahhh yes, and the moment we've all been waiting for. Mouse: "Bane is fighting Neo!"
They confront each other. They fight over the lightning gun (Final Trailer> 1:41 -- and the Power TV spot> 0:16 to 0:17, but is that Neo? I can't tell). And on some of the tv spots we can even see clips of Neo punching Bane (The End TV spot> 0:18), and dodging a blast (Enemy TV spot> 0:09/0:10). Notice that in the clip of Neo and Bane grappling for the gun, that Bane's face does not look as bloody/greasy/dirty (?) as it does in the following clip that we all know of:
(Final trailer> 0:51 to 1:00)
Neo: Who are you
Bane: Look past the flesh, and see your enemy.
Neo: That's impossible.
Bane: Not impossible. Inevitable.
Except for a cut on his lip, and some blood dripping from his nose Bane looks pretty much normal, until you get to the scene I just mentioned. These little details are easier to see on the ultra resolution trailer btw.
Before I noticed this I was toying with jedi's idea that Bane is deteriorating. But after seeing him in this fight, where he looks pretty much ok, I think it might be something else on his face. Maybe grease, or blood... I must admit though, his skin color Does look sickly, especially around his eyes. And as I said, the blood looks a little odd. Maybe he is sick or something... I can't really tell what's happening.
So, being that Neo is alive for the rest of the movie... I bet he wins Therefore I bet Bane loses and dies
Oh well... 21 gun salute... Taps... ok, moving along.
Now, the Second moment we've all been waiting for. *Ok... how do I put this...* we all know that Neo has a blindfold on in the real world. But why? I happen to believe in the idea of Neo's brain overloading and tripping out when he shocks the sentinels. Therefore, to keep that from happening again, he covers his eyes. Lots of other people have been suggesting something like this, and I think it's pretty feasible. With the blindfold on he can see what's going on in the machine world/matrix and not go into a coma. Also, this allows him to do what he did to the sentinels again. We see an example of this when he blows up the squiddy bomb (Final Trailer> 1:59 to 2:07). I'll come back to this thought in a moment... But first let me point out something else: I think this blindfold idea is why Bane is in a coma too (this is a big maybe tell me what you think of it).
I imagine the events surrounding Bane went something like this. He sabotaged the counter attack and killed the crew on-board his ship.
Niobe: I can't believe it.
Ghost: We did it.
Sparks: Did what is the question.
Niobe: What do you mean.
Spark: I mean it didn't work. Whatever was supposed to happen, didn't happen. Something's gone wrong.
-Scene switch to various dead bodies in a ship... at the end we see Bane who is alive and well-
-Scene switch to The Hammer (it's the ship that finds Morpheus and his crew at the end of Reloaded)-
-An alarm rings-
Captain: What was that?
Man: I think it was an EMP.
Captain: How?
Man: No idea, but right now we can't reach 11, 4, or 7.
-Scene switch to Commander Lock-
Opera: Sir! We've just lost contact with the Icharus!
Lock: What!
Opera: and the Novalis, and the Caduceus!
Lock: How is that possible?
Man: I don't understand it, sir, but the line is broken.
Lock: God damn it, what the hell is happening?
Then as the sentinels are moving through the wreckage, he ends up having to use a power similar to Neo to stop them. It seems easy to imagine that Bane may have a connection to the Matrix and somehow be able to stop sentinels as well... with the same side effect of putting him in a coma. Why do I even think this is what happened? Well because we know he Is in a coma, and the reason Neo is in one is because of what he did to the sentinels. This kinda leads me to believe that Bane did the same thing, or something similar (maybe).
Sooo, Neo and Trinity go towards the machine city, planing to bring Neo to the Speak machine, with the ultimate hopes of Neo being able to get some help to beat Smith. But what Simple... why does he need the machine's help? Well for one, Smith Is getting pretty powerful. Two, there's a good chance the Oracle told him to do it, knowing that he would need some sort of upgrade (like we've discussed before on other threads) in order to beat Smith. Three, if he Didn't need the machine's help, why wouldn't he just hack in like normal? Why go through all the trouble of infiltrating their territory and walking up to their head machine? Seems kinda dangerous if he wasn't doing it for a reason. Four, he want's to arrange a deal with the machines. They know they need Neo to stop Smith. And Neo is probably trying to get them to call off the seige of Zion. So, as we said, Neo makes his way there... to the big, bad, Speak machine
(Final Trailer> 0:15 to 0:33)
Speak machine: Speak. (duh...)
Neo: The program Smith has grown beyond your control. You cannot stop him. But I can.
Speak machine: And if you fail?
Neo: I won't.
Note that in one of the clips it appears as if the face turns into a large hand reaching out for Neo (Help TV spot> 0:05 to 0:06)
Also note that Neo does not have any of the cuts or scrapes around his eyes in this scene. Again, if you have the high res trailer it's easier to see all these things. The machines and Neo agree to work together and... duh dada duhhh... Super neo is Born. What I mean is, I believe the machines give him some kind of new... Something, that'll help him in the battle against Smith. Where does the orange corridor fit in? That... is a very good question. I've got a lot of different thoughts about that one. First of all, I don't remember who said it, but somebody said that the orange glow might be the way Neo sees things when he has the blindfold on, similar to Shadow Vision in Daredevil. In other words, that's what his mind sees. And he can see all the things that have to do with the machines like that. That sounds pretty interesting to me, and I think that may be what's going on here. I think the tunnel is either a tunnel Neo goes through on his way up to the Speak machine (which then opens up to the platform that we all see him standing on). Or it's a tunnel he goes through after the talk with the speak machine, in which he gets upgraded. I'm not really sure on this one. If anyone else has an idea please let us know.
Well, then comes the third moment we've all been waiting for... The fight against Smith.
Ahh, wasn't that a good fight... Very nice. So anyways, moving along... Now Neo jacks out, and something very bad is happening. The machines are going ahead with thier attack on Zion! And they're sending in the entire fleet. Those bastards... in the words of Mero, "Nom de Dieu de putain de bordel de merde de saloperie de connard d'enculé de ta mère!" Sorry about that. Ok back to business. Why do I think this is what's happening? Well that large fleet of squiddy bombs, destroyers, and other assorted bad things is on their way somewhere. And when the thought crossed my mind that they might be heading to Zion, it seemed to make sense to me. Think about it, they still want control. They've gotten what they want out of Neo (the destruction of Smith). Now they have to stop the rebels. They cannot lose. And at this point they're ready to cut their losses, destroy Neo, and start the process over. As the architect said, "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. They are ready to stop this whole thing and get rid of Neo. He's too powerful -- which is kind of an interesting thought. Neo and Smith have grown beyond thier Control. Hmmm... (wow... this is a big Maybe... but I think it fits. Let me know what you think folks)
So, as I said, now Neo is out. The question is where does he get those cuts from. Maybe from a big fight to get back to the ship (remember, the machines might want to kill him at this point). Maybe from a bumpy ride on-board the ship as they try to hurry out of there. I'm not really sure yet. But as I said, I don't think it's from the Bane fight because Neo's eyes are not hurt when he talks to the Speak machine.
Now, Neo and Trin make their move. They try to intercept the machine army, and do what they can to stop them or slow them down.
(Final Trailer> 2:00 to 2:03)
Trinity: If you tell me we'll make it I'll believe you.
Neo: We'll make it. We have to.
*Note that you must view one of the TV spots to see Neo say "We have to" with his blindfold on (Enemy TV spot> 0:25)
We see the scenes of Neo blowing up squiddy bombs (Final Trailer> 1:59 to 2:07).
And here's an interesting one, that we've all been wondering about. We see what kinda looks like a sentinel crashing into their hovercraft, smashing through the window, and then flying Through/Into Neo!?! As Link would say, "I can't take this." *crashes back into chair in disbelief* So what's going on here? Well, a lot of different things are possible. First thing that raises it's disturbing little head: MWAM. Next, uhhh, Neo's the one, and he can just do that now. Sure... right. Next, it's simply from a different scene (very likely). I even toyed with the idea that the machines are messing with his head. Using his bluetooth in reverse, trying to trip him up a little. I know, I know, but I was just toying with that idea... Well anyways, it appears to be a sentinel crashing into/through Neo. I don't know how it happens, but I do know why I believe this. If you look at the scene really closely, and frame by frame, it looks like the same angels an everything for this to be what's really happening. Everything from the sentinels size, trajectory, to where Neo's hands are a moment before. I even noted that the sentinel is the only thing he sees in the golden vision, which follows along with the Neo Shadow Vision we talked about earlier (only things the machines are connected to show up in that orange glow).
So maybe this is what's happening... and, of course, maybe not. Please let me know what you think of these ideas. Anybody can feel free to add or subtract from this. I just hope this can be a good starting point for our thoughts on the whole situation. Ok folks, keep digging... and let us all know what you come up with.
Yeah it is alot. It's more for the people who haven't read the hundreds of little posts that are scattered through different threads. This hopefully puts all the ideas in one place. Maybe. Anyhow... here it is. Please proceed to add or subtract....
dang, more like Preist then simple, LOL, hehe, the time line, the background, and the philosophy is the best explanation i have read as far as a whole goes, It seems to me, that u have picked up anything and everything possible without seein the movie, the guesses seem to fall in line with the story,and i would not doubt that the W Brothers are gonna send agents to your room to take you out, lol, well, we will see, but i feel like i already watched the movie, now we get to see it with special affects, yay, lol, GOD BLESS
No, Simple, jack out, now, i cannot have a wingman die on me, before our first mission, it's not good luck, nor is it feasible to train someone else...
navykidd> yeah... I really typed a lot didn't I...
Thanks a lot for the comments though. I tried to put some serious thought into it. Yeah, at this point, I'm afraid I may have spoiled the movie for myself It'll be kind of neat to see how many of our guess turn out to be true... what a minute... did you hear that noise... Are you sure this line isn't tapped?
Holy crap -- Operator I need a way out of here! Now!!
navykidd> I just now caught what you said about special effects. LOL I'll have to try to whip something together for you **No, down Priest, down -- Simple beats Priest with a chair : **
KMC Community Forums
Sep 28th, 2003 08:51 PM
)
(I imagine this is gonna be the explanation for the blindfold) So as we said, his brain is still connected to the Matrix and his residual self is stuck there, while his body remains in the "real" world (again depending on how you think). And... he is NOT physically jacked in. 
Therefore I bet Bane loses 
Operator, get Simple an exit, NOW!!
yeah... I really typed a lot didn't I...
It'll be kind of neat to see how many of our guess turn out to be true... what a minute... did you hear that noise... Are you sure this line isn't tapped? 
: **
*Priest returns fire*
