The point is that it's not known if Kisame is weaker chakra wise but he could still listen because Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan is enough to make anybody do it. Kisame knows what it is capable of and he has no way to block it so in a fight Kisame would loose.
The thing the Sharingan is best known for is it's genjutsu. That is the thing that it uses most offensively and defensively.
Doesn't Gai even say that he reads people by the way they move their feet so Kakashi's sharingan won't have any effect? Not exactly those words but still. And what did Zabuza do when he realized how Kakashi beat him? He made it so Kakashi couldn't see in their next fight and the sharingan. If it could see like Sasuke did then Kakashi should never be hit, and Gai with just taijutsu should pose no problem even if he doesn't look at the sharingan.
The fact that Gai can tell what somebody does by looking at their feet...I'm sure that's pretty good at reading somebody. And even still he considers Kakashi his rival and with Gai's personality he'd learn everything about him. The way he fights, what moves he uses mostly, everything. And Gai even says he learned to do the knowing how to fight by looking at peoples feet by fighting Kakashi. They've had what like 100 contests...I'm pretty sure when Gai picks they aren't something stupid like rock, paper, scissors like the only thing we've seen them do also. Why would he know anything about what the sharingan can do without fighting it.
Just because Kakashi is skilled in ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu doesn't make it more likely he'd win. As for Primary Lotus, Lee trained his body for it. Neji can't do it but Neji always beats Lee. Gai has also trained his body to withstand it. Heck Lee can't really even withstand the toll it takes on his body. What makes you think Kakashi who hasn't done anything that rivals the strain it is said to put on the body will be able to do it effectively if at all?
Um Sasuke being faster than Naruto or Sakura can even see when they meet him again after a few years means yea...Sasuke is a lot faster than Naruto. I hate Sasuke so no I'm not saying Sasuke is faster because I think he's cooler because I don't. He's just proven it. Not to mention he's always been faster. Sure he's more skilled in taijutsu which was obvious in their fight on the statues but he wasn't so much faster without the seal than normal Naruto then like he is now.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Sasuke is implied to have crazy speed, Deidara even says he cant fight him head on because he is to fast. He moves instantly behind Naruto when they meet again and if you have played Narutimate Accel 2 he has some fast as fuk speed moves in it. Sasuke is currently leagues above practicaly every one in speed.
Sasuke wasn't faster than Yamato or Sai. Nor was he faster than Orochimaru. Sasuke is fast but far from fastest. Though cursed seal 2 he'd probably be way faster than Sai or Yamato. Course it's not like Naruto doesn't get faster than Sasuke and even then I doubt either are the fastest. Tobi, or Pein probably hold that spot...I'd go with Tobi though.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
if gai is staring at kakashi's feet he wont be ablle to see the seals his hands are forming (if he could even read them at all at kakashi's hand speed)
oh yeah sure gai would never do anything stupid like walking around the town a hundred times on his hands or doing a thousand pushups on one thumb. no, thats not like him at all. only kakashi would think of something stupid like that.
because kakashi and gai fight together, not against each other. they have seen each other fight.
dont talk as if kakashi doesnt train. we dont know anything at all about the training kakashi does. it could be the same as gai's for all we know. kakashi is very powerful. no one knows how long he's had ms, but even itachi couldnt hide his fear of kakashi. itachi gets as terrified as a little girl when kakashi tells him he already has magekyou sharingan and is well aware of its abilities and drawbacks.
ok, so the technique that sasuke used when naruto and sakura found him wasnt his speed, it was the same technique he used on diedara, and the same technique he used to get inside the giant snake and save himself. it was an instant transmission technique and it is one of sharingan's abilities. i wouldnt be surprised if kakashi could do it too.
Last edited by wade217 on Jan 30th, 2008 at 08:05 AM
kakashi was caught off guard by itachi because he didnt think he would use the mangekyou sharingan so freely. if kakashi had wanted to, he could have made it a ms vs ms fight and held his own, but he chose to preserve his eyesight. thats the reason kakashi wanted help fighting itachi the second time, because mangekyou sharingan is a very last resort for all of the reasons kakashi stated right before he fought itachi (the 2nd time). itachi seems much more powerful because he is much more liberal w/ his use of ms. he probably isnt as careful w/ it because he is relying on his plan to restore his vision. kakashi is very skilled and powerful ninja in many ways, but hes smart. hes not going to throw his eyesight away just to show off his most powerful move.
if the fight between gai and kakashi was serious (life o death), i really dont think gai would have too much of a chance.
Kakashi never had the Mangekyou Sharingan when he first fought Itachi. We do know he didn't have the Mangekyou Sharingan before the time skip so no he wouldn't have has a battle against Itachi with them when they first fought.
And life and death battle I'd pick the 8 Gates beating a Mangekyou Sharingan that Kakashi can't aim well.
If Naruto and Sakura can see them Gai wouldn't have a problem.
Gai made that after Kakashi did the rock, paper, scissors thing didn't he? And to Gai that's training. Gai does stuff to constantly train himself so yea picking something mundane as rock, paper, scissors really isn't Gai.
Except Gai has fought Kakashi. Not all out no doubt but there isn't anything saying at all that they haven't sparred in all the times they've had contests.
Except we know Kakashi's isn't like Gai. Gai's is like Lee's. We've seen some of Kakashi's training like climbing that mountain with one arm but he also has to train on his ninjutsu also. Just because Kakashi is powerful doesn't mean his body can take the strain of the Lotus. When has Itachi ever been terrified of Kakashi? They fought once face to face, and Kakashi was powerless against him, and the next time it was a clone that only had 30 % of his chakra that Kakashi had trouble with.
When was it ever stated he teleported to Naruto or against Deidara? Not to mention Yamato saw him move and says he's fast while Sakura didn't see him move at all. The only sharingan ability Sasuke used was genjutsu on Manda. Not to mention Sasuke is stronger than Kakashi so who is to say Kakashi could even genjutsu Manda.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
there is no way of knowing how long kakashi has had mangekyou sharingan. imo, he likely did have it before the time skip. the first time we saw him use it is was when he was fighting diedara and he wanted to test out a new technique that required mangeyou sharingan. MS was not the new technique, the worm hole was the new technique. sharingan and MS can be used for many techniques, not just genjutsu.
gai cant look at two things at once. it's either hands or feet.
and u talk as if that wormhole thing (which kakashi could very well have improved its aim by now) that kakshi did with MS is the only thing he can do with MS. Kashi's MS is the same as itachi's MS, and there's a lot of things u can do w/ MS.
u dont know what kakashi does to train himself tho. it could be 10x more intense than gai's training for all we know because they never show kakashi training. the only reason why we see lee and gai train all the time is because their training methods are stupi-- i mean uuh...unique. my point is do not make assumptions about kakashi's training.
u have no way of knowing if theyve fought or not, so dont say that they have fought.
why dont you go back and watch episode 13 (i think thats it) of shippuuden. watch when kakashi busts out his sharingan and says "itachi, how bad has ur eyesight become" (or something like that). look at itachi 's face. listen to his reaction. and then tell me he wasnt scared. he was fealing uneasy as soon as he realized kakashi knew way more about MS than he could have learned from just having seen it. kakashi had MS in that fight with itachi but chose not to use it because he knows that consequences. if kakashi avoided using MS agaist itachi, who knows how long he's had it and just avoided using it. the way kakashi spoke to itachi about MS sure made it seem like he had been familiar with MS for a while.
when sasuke explained how he escaped that atom bomb sized blast, he said something about using some kinda space time technique to fly to another space (inside the giant snake). its chapter 363 if u want to check it out.
and yamato did not see sasuke move. he stated (in astonishment) "he's fast" because he didnt see sasuske move. so, his first though was that sasuke was moving faster than he could see, which is logical thinking. ppl dont usually move by teleporting, but that is what sasuke did. he used the same space time jutsu he used with manda on naruto.
Last edited by wade217 on Jan 30th, 2008 at 10:43 PM
Actually, if there's no time limit, I think Gai would win.
Gai knows Kakashi huge weakness, endurance, all he has to do is keep Kakashi on his toes for awhile, while keeping the sharingan out, then when he's tired attack with the gates.
I only just thought of that. Since Gai is quite abit faster than Kakashi anyway (or so i assume what with all that mad training), keeping distance shouldn't be a problem.
this brings up a good point. gai is a strong short-range fighter. kakashi is more rounded, so if he can just manage to keep his distance. his long-range skills would give him a huge advantage.
Obviously Kakashi had the Mangekyou when he fought Itachi the second time..he used it on Deidara later on after getting to Gaara. He fights Itachi on his way to Gaara.
There is nothing to suggest he had it before then. Just using the sharingan back at the beginning of Naruto drained him of all his chakra, MS would be nearly impossible to have. Not a lot of time passes through the Naruto arc before shippuden.
He can look at his body without looking at his face...it's not impossible.
And there is nothing to say Kakashi's improved his aim. Not when using it easily puts him bedridden.
I seriously doubt Kakashi's training is 10x's harder than Gai's. Not to mention Gai is Kakashi's physical superior while Kakashi is the jutsu superior. There training would probably be to radically different to even say which would be worse.
And what proof is there that they haven't fought?
Itachi looked surprised sorta in the manga, only because he realized Kakashi has the MS. Kakashi has had just about three years to get the mangekyou sharingan.
Sasuke didn't use the sharingan when he moved to put his arm around Naruto. He used a spacial warp jutsu, and even then Suigetsu needed to summon Manda to get Sasuke out. There is nothing to say the Sasuke teleported when he moved at all. Least of all using the same technique to get away from the explosion.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
the reason why i think kakashi has ahd MS for a long time is the way he talked about it and the fact that he chose not to use it even when he was fighting itachi. he didnt use it when he fought the other akatsuki either. if he didnt use it against those extremely dangerous ninja, why would we have seen him use it before? who have we seen him fight that would be more powerful? i cant say for sure that he's had it a long time, but it would make sense if u really have to kill ur closest friend for it. kakashi said all the ppl that were close to him died a long time ago.
of course nothing says he improved his aim. but nothing said he didnt. im just saying that it is possible because we dont know.
i doubt that kakshi's physical training is as extreme as gai's too, but there's no way of knowing. there is no point in making assumptions either way.
hello? there is no proof that gai and kakashi fought or that they didnt fight. that's my point.
He was able to fight Itachi clone pretty evenly so he didn't need it, and he even said he was about to use it on Kakuzu when Naruto and Yamato showed up because he had no other choice. And Kakashi probably did have it for a long time..2 years at the most I'd say though. And Kakashi didn't kill any of his closest friends. Obitio didn't die by him, and we don't even know what happened to the girl. The fourth killed himself. I think Kakashi getting the Mangekyou Sharingan during shippuden is just a way of saying that one doesn't need to kill a best friend to get it, so Sasuke can get it somehow without killing anybody except Itachi.
Because not using it will improve it. He could barley hit a stationary target with it. That's probably another reason he didn't use it on Itachi. They were fighting h2h for the most part so they were both moving around. Same with Kakuzu. Plus he's unable to move for days.
Sasuke never said anything. Suigetsu said he got inside Manda and used a jutsu to fly into a different space.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
yeah, he probably hasnt improved his aim. probably.
kakashi didnt even like obito tho. prolly didnt even consider him a friend until after he thought he died. who knows how close he and rin were. no one knows anything about his friends or family but that his dad died when he was young. unless itachi doesnt know what he's talking about, killing ur friend is what u have to do to obtain MS. i dont know why ppl assume that kakashi didnt kill his friend just because they like him. i mean i like him too, but i dont have any way of knowing if he killed his friend. this is why naruto is such a great story. every revelation causes questions. most of what we've been talking about here is evidence that supports theories about who has what abilities and to what degree. there's no proof that kakashi can kill gai. i can just say that theres a good probability that he would based on the evidence.
my personal theory regarding kakashi's ms is that he had a friend who turned evil and kakashi had to kill him. but it's very possible that a genius like him could find a way to obtain ms w/o killing someone. if he was smart enough to do that, i'd just use that display of intelligence as one more reason he would not lose to gai.
Last edited by wade217 on Jan 31st, 2008 at 07:34 PM
He changed his ways because of Obito though. And they became friends when Obito died. I still believe that Kakashi found a way to obtain the MS without killing a friend. I don't even like Kakashi that much. And...Kakashi could kill Gai. Any of his attacks would probably kill Gai. Gai would have a harder time to kill Kakashi I think with just his pure strength while Kakashi has all the jutsus that can crush or pierce him.
I don't think Kakashi being a genius has any part of him beating Gai at all. And I'm not saying Kakashi can't beat Gai because I believe he can. I just also think Gai can take on Kakashi. Gai may not be a genius but he's not a slouch in fighting at all.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Don't forget Rock Lee is like the best fighter in the Leaf Village out of everyone in his age group...he is just underrated because of Naruto and Saskue....and yeah by the way his teacher is Gai....If gai trained Rock Lee....he has to be pretty good himself...so don't count him out of fight with Gai...the guy was about to take on Itachi by himself by looking at only his feet
Just a note it's fair to assume Kakashi obtained the 'MS' during the time skip considering it was never mentioned or implied before it and obviously Kakashi wasn't sitting around for 3 years doing nothing.
lee is not the best. neji is the best. neji has always had better taijutsu than lee (lee said so himself) and neji will probably always have better taijutsu than lee. imo sasuke prolly has better taijutsu than lee too.
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