It is what brought me to this "Forsaken Corner of the Plane...To Safeguard the Sanctity of my Own Reality" (please log in to view the image)
Warlock here says..
"For The Sake of this Universe....This Fragile Reality (he's referring to the same Universe) once again needed saving" (please log in to view the image)
SO you can continue to claim WITHOUT a shred of Evidence that LT has M-bodys, but your not convincing anyone until you bring up an issue where that is stated.
ONLY TWO M-bodys of Eternity were shown in Quasar#37, ("simultaneously")
one was from the PAST, of a Warlock's TRIAL from Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1, which took place in February of 92'..
and one of the PRESENT, of Eternity Comatose, which took place in accordance with Quasar #37, in June of 92'.
But why you continue to struggle to mesh the two is beyond me.
The Eternity M-body with the Beyonder is from a separate issue, so it's inconsequential, and we still don't even know from WHAT Comic that is taking place, if from any at all.
You mean his SPECULATION.
I also saw him FIND that "M-body of Eternity where the essence of it was":
"Since there's nothing to be done for this zoned-out MANIFESTATION of Eternity"
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
again, i don't get what you're saying. that meeting took place during secret wars 2. in the dimension of m all the manifestations are existing at the same time. seriously, i don't get why you don't see it.
i denied this somewhere . . .?
no it's not because time has no meaning where they are.
characters go back in time a lot and change continuity. why couldn't continuity have been changed in this case retroactively? the scene has never been revisited, so we have no way to know for sure.
correct, but i said also said the power of an m-body could vary. if someone is standing outside the universe and wants to talk to eternity, THAT m-body may well encompass the whole universe. i said not all m-bodies are the same. an m-body existing WITHIN the universe cannot (it's IMPOSSIBLE to use your earlier term) for it to encompass the whole universe when it exists WITHIN the universe.
umm, that's exactly what i've been saying all along. you said the m-body encompasses the whole universe -- if it encompasses the whole universe then . . . why wouldn't that include the 'spirit'?
the 'spirit' was bound, as such it could not affect the m-body.
the 'spirit' was bound put struggling. spirit: active attempting to escape magus's binding. m-body: inert. the m-body is meaningless and incomplete. the spirit or essence is key.
the 'spirit' was bound by magus.
my take has never changed. the m-body represents the abstract, but it is an incomplete representation. essentially it IS the concept, but the body is meaningless (depending on what the abstract wills, of course). a destroyed m-body does not necessarily destroy the concept.
when death DOES come back its in a new m-body. strange beat the first, but that win is meaningless of course, because death can instantly recreate a new m-body.
you can continue to believe they are meaningless. your perogative.
he was sent against q because lt noticed quasar. that action, even his words, are independent of the situation we HAD seen in the past. if they were simple reflections, quasar could NOT have interfered. they were not just 'replays' of past events.
she couldn't -- she too was bound along with eternity by magus. she either couldn't manifest an m-body or that infinity q saw was also in a coma. not sure which as it was never really defined.
so none of them were really death? they ALL were.
you keep talking about errors in the story. my explanation easily accounts for all these 'errors'.
eternity and infinity resisted almost as long as lt did. lt should have lasted a lot longer. my explanation: the lt m-body was more powerful than eternity but not by all that much. multi-eternity would be a great deal more powerful and seemingly should have/could have resisted. abraxas was like multi's kryptonite, its drax. even singlular eternity resisted thanos.
no worries. malestrom DID assume its role though and commited the m-body to oblivion.
again, your perogative.
i'm just trying to explain what i've seen. you asked about it, now that i've answered your query you are calling pis. lt and eternity are said to exist in all times and places. perhap this is how they do so. i don't mean to torture you, but it really does make sense to me.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
if the lt exists in every universe at the same time, why wouldn't there be a d of m in each universe? how do you come to the conclusion that just because it is said to be lt's realm that it is the only one in the . . . multiverse? omniverse? lt can only have one realm? seems like one realm for THIS universe's manifestation of lt explains things nicely.
how do you know it has nothing to do with scale of power? the form can vary. why would that be limited to simply shape?
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to debates? they have ALWAYS been irrelevent because the portrayal of characters are . . . not very good. unless you really DO think lt's supreme judgement is a supernova . . .?
they essentially created their own universe and seperated from eternity. okay.
dismissing? how am i dismissing?
maybe . . . or i could call pis . . . of course their WAS the explosion. could have happened during that time i suppose. that's REALLY forcing order on events that are not MEANT to be ordered. the real reason is of course the writers wanted to SHOW the universe was made. showing an m-body of the universe is a lot cooler than showing them in front of a space-scape. fact remains, it was an m-body, and they come from the d of m.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
no problem.
exact duplicates happen all the time. that's what every what if book is. a duplicate of 616 that becomes its own universe when an event is changed. 4321 would have been an exact duplicate of 616 (would in fact have BEEN 616) until it diverged and became its own universe. until the divergence, the histories and everything were exactly the same.
he couldn't have battled abraxas -- not because of a power issue but because of what ab was.
the reasons for this scene are the heart of the debate. you say there were still stars because he absorbed so fast no void could have existed and he wiped out the multiverse. i say he absorbed m-bodies and continued to absorb beyond the m-body to the universe itself. technically, you've shown no proof that a multiverse was absorbed. your opinion goes against all off-panel explanations by writers and handbooks and even makes atleza the anchor of the multiverse. my explanation fits in quite nicely with all those things.
starlin could have made the event crystal clear had he showed multi being absorbed. you're speculating again. and again, that's fine. just that you haven't really proven anything any more than i have. your thoughts fit your pre-conceived ideas, mine fit with what has been accepted and put out by marvel (though i concede what they put out is not always correct).
you were very quick to call out errors and pis in some of the scans and things i showed but when overwhelming evidence points to this being an error you stick with it? or perhaps it IS correct, and kubick is simply referencing each singular eternity as a multiverse, which is a claim i've stated before. in THAT case, the statement makes absolutely PERFECT sense. and if he exists in all universes simultaneously, how does he manifest in each? contemplator says the being REPRESENTS lt -- not IS lt. if every lt is ALL of lt, did ALL lt's across the multiverse get scattered across dimensions by reed? of course not because each lt (while still part of the whole) is a seperate and distinct manifestation. truely -- it makes so much sense to me. how else do you explain it? you can't. you can just say -- that's what it says. i like my explanation better even if NO ONE sees it that way.
i told you the third was in 38, found by contemplator just after quasar left. 3 in all.
why you say 2 eternities can both exist yet both be complete eternities is also beyond me.
isn't that the scene where they are pleading that death not be eliminated?
i said it could be all . . . just not that it NEEDS to be, or has to be and that an m-body can be destroyed/killed without it 'killing' the concept that it represents.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
anywho, please don't go point for point, mm. this will NEVER END!!
my contention is a simple one: an m-body represents the abstract, but it NOT the complete abstract. if an m-body is destroyed, the abstract need not be destroyed (it could be IF the abstract wills ALL of itself into the body, i suppose). eternity seen from OUTSIDE itself could logically have an m-body that encompasses all of it if it chose. why is this important? because then that allows for tha fact that thanos could have absorbed m-bodies of lt, eternity and infinity rather than all their essence, leaving the remainder of the universe behind which thanos than absorbed.
basically that's let atleza anchor the 616 (as she has been said to) as opposed to the multiverse, it explains all the terminology that was used in the story (universe was used repeatedly, not multiverse, by charatcers WELL versed in things cosmic . . .) and prevents any real speculation about the events because it fits with the story and the explanations put forth by marvel AND (perhaps more imortantly) the writer of the story.
for those reasons, i believe it was the universe that was absorbed. everyone else is free to believe whatever they wish. occams razor for me -- the simplest explanation is the best.
i'm pretty much done, mm. a fine debate as usual and civil til the end!! yay for us!
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Last edited by leonidas on Dec 3rd, 2006 at 04:48 AM
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
thanks, mm! not to sound like a mutual admiration society, but you're pretty good yourself. not many times lately have a felt the need to delve into books for proof and assistance. i used to all the time when i was new.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
okey-dokey. a couple things i know you wanted to see. the first 3 deal with the binding and freeing of eternity's consciousness. it still struggled against its bonds and would have broken free on its own, but galactus didn't want to wait. when it's released, infinity is ALSO released.
the next ones deal with an issue i KNOW you'll bring up: the singular eternity being referenced as a 'multiverse'. we've been over this before, but you know i think calling singular eternity a multiverse is completely valid as eternity 616 is made of countless dimensions/relaities/planes/universes. you also know that i think the best proof for this is the defenders ltd series where eternity tells dormammu they have met before, indicating this is the SAME eternity he fought in the past and NOT multi-eternity as you claim it is. i think the term multiverse as it was used in that series refers strictly to 616's eternity and NOT the multi-eternity.
here are a couple interesting NEW scans (and nothing like the silliness of that defenders series) which back it up further.
"A hand which holds whole UNIVERSES." he even references strange's universe (the 616) as a dimension.
viewed from this perspective, that lt scan makes perfect sense, no error needed to explain it. each singular eternity IS a multiverse, all combined make multi-eternity. in the book eternity also references a past meeting with strange and reminds strange that the ancient one was the first mortal to ever see him. are we to ascribe every meeting with eternity retroactively as a meeting with MULTI-eternity . . .? no, i don't think so. strange was before 616 eternity. ancient one was before 616 eternity, and in the defenders, dormammu was before 616 eternity.
anyway, i actually like this explanation BETTER than calling error or pis in your lt scan.
what do you think goober?
ps-a thought just occurred to me, mm. you say warlock met multi-eternity, and the most convincing piece of evidence you site is the fact that they existed in myriad fashions. the d of m explains away THAT little quote quite nicely, as well and further strengthens the notion that it was NOT multi-eternity warlock stood before (a fact that cannot be explained by any on-panel evidence in that book, anyway, but which actually DOES say he was searching out simply eternity). no speculation needed, no bringing in of other books not relevent to the book that is in question.
i think this has all come together rather nicely.
somehow.
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Last edited by leonidas on Dec 3rd, 2006 at 02:27 PM
Wow Leo, that's actually a very interesting theory, and I can't really come up with anything wrong with it off the top of my head. Let me give it some thought and get back to you about it.
But check out what I realized not very long ago. Ok now you say that the whole Ultra-verse thing is one indication of LT's restricted power right? OK, now I normally HATE calling PIS on cosmics, because it's to easy to abuse that in an effort to structure the cosmic hierarchy to your liking. HOWEVER there's not really much choice in this instance. And here's the explanation for it. Now, in the Infinity War #6 when Eternity reinstates the restriction on the gems he says "Let it be known that the power the Living Tribunal REPRESENTS will never allow the gems to be used in unison". Now to me, it sounds like Eternity is actually talking about TOAA, because he's the power over LT. So if the gems worked together in the Ultra-verse, that would mean that it went against HIS ruling. So the only thing that really makes sense, its to write the thing off as bad writing, and the single biggest instance of PIS in comics( it'd actually be the biggest also, because it happened on TOAA).
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
could be PIS. i like how you prefaced your stance about hating PIS first. i hate it to for EXACTLY the reason you mentioned. the only other way around it is to speculate that lt's ruling called only for the inability to use the gems in THIS multiverse. i hate guessing at something like that, but i suppose it COULD be viewed retroactively to mean that . . . of course there is no evidence to support it.
even allowing for that to be pis, the multiversal view of a singular eternity works pretty well -- and doesn't call for there to have been an error in the printing, or a typo, etc . . .
"she's IGNORING me, GUESS THIS ISN'T the M-BODY I MET" (please log in to view the image)
"What'd I expect, She of ALL people must have an INFINITE Number of M-BODIES"
SO what does this mean?
That THIS is a DIFFERENT Infinity, in FACT the MULTIPLE Reflections in the Dimension of Manifestations are from OTHER UNIVERSES! (That's what this proves)
Of course it sounds nicely to YOU,
it's YOUR opinion on the matter, your not going to say what your OPINION (WITHOUT PROOF) sounds illogical.
Your SPECULATING again.
"Some Entities have very SPECIFIC Requirements, others give us FREER REIGN" (please log in to view the image)
"Frequently we FORM the MANIFESTATION-BODY to the MENTAL IMAGE of the Beholder"
You can't go around ADDING theories and speculation to what was said On Panel to solidify what your postulating.
The Fractals claim to have some freedom in the Form of the M-body, and NOTHING else.
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Dec 3rd, 2006 01:42 AM
