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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
It seems to have gone down like this...

Dadudamon was citing a lot of feats from the EU material including the CW cartoon.



That is a very gross misrepresentation. The only thing I cited, as an aside, which later was unecceassry, was force crush being canon or non-canon. It is canon, and therefore, it is not EU.

The only thing left to see is if it's partially canon for Mace. (I still have to go back and watch the commentary to see how "real" it is.)

You can mention the H2H thing of Maces, but I'm quite sure I mentioned that being EU/non-canon.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
(The original one) while decrying stuff we saw on screen.


What stuff?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
That leads onto argument 2.

This was regards to the clash between the canons of the CW movie and all existing canon before (Anakin having an apprentice himself pre jedi master status, Grevious clearly having his movie appearance already, as opposed to the original CW cartoon, where he walks hunched and coughs becuse Mace force crushed him at the battle of coruscant in the cartoon. etc)


This is clearly a writing problem and not an issue of canon non-canon. Like I said, hold off on conclusions until I get the commentary.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
(Despite canon being that Jedi dont use their powers for attack anyway.)


That's wrong. Mace was going to execute Sidious. Anakin killed before falling to the dark side...but he doesn't really count. Yoda fought Dooku with some pretty good fury on form IV which is the heavily force assisted fighting form. Obi used force Jump and form IV to get a suprise attack on Darth Maul. Luke used force choke, a dark side power, against the gamoreans. Etc. etc. etc.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
So Yoda just pulled that out of his ass..?

Yodas teachings to Luke were probably revised by 21 years of sitting around in a swamp thinking "Oooopsss. Beat, my ass got last time I went on the attack."


laughing laughing laughing


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Old Post Feb 10th, 2009 09:48 PM
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Sadako of Girth
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
1)That is a very gross misrepresentation. The only thing I cited, as an aside, which later was unecceassry, was force crush being canon or non-canon. It is canon, and therefore, it is not EU.

The only thing left to see is if it's partially canon for Mace. (I still have to go back and watch the commentary to see how "real" it is.)

You can mention the H2H thing of Maces, but I'm quite sure I mentioned that being EU/non-canon.



2)What stuff?



3) This is clearly a writing problem and not an issue of canon non-canon. Like I said, hold off on conclusions until I get the commentary.




That's wrong. Mace was going to execute Sidious. Anakin killed before falling to the dark side...



1) No its not.

2) The Flash Thompson fight scene showing how much faster Peter percieves time with Spidey sense.

3) It is because there was enough conflict to generate this discussion.

4) As I proved with that video, there is enough of the way Sidious plays that whole deal to indictate ambigiously granted that he was playing with Mace, satlling til the moment Anakin arrived.

It was a way to get Senate sympathy and Anakin's defence.
When Mace defelected the lightning back at Palps I disrupted his masking. His true appearance another thing to blame on the Jedi.
(He lies about everything he tells the senate including that.)

Evidence to support it:

1)The clear way that you can see him feigning a more vulnerable condition than he was in: "I cant hold it anylonger Im too weak...too weak..." Next minute BLAMMMMMM ultra stron force lightning's mace out the window.

2) TWICE in that fight, Mace is found with his center line open, arms out either side, with Palp's lightsabre right within thrust range, and Palps lets him off twice (Anakin still hadnt arrived yet, then).

3) The kind of Force lightning attacks we see Luke hit with in ROTJ didnt yellow his eyes, rot his teeth and make his skin pale.
Or Mace's.

4) As a big fan of CW cartoon, you will note the hologram of Palpatine has the teeth and 'the voice', pre-ROTS.
We also here 'the voice' in TPM and AOTC too.
Quite the statement in a series you aledge was "Lucas' hands on" with.

Thats plenty to support the notion.


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Last edited by Sadako of Girth on Feb 11th, 2009 at 01:04 AM

Old Post Feb 11th, 2009 01:02 AM
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Final Blaxican
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth

It was a way to get Senate sympathy and Anakin's defence.
When Mace defelected the lightning back at Palps I disrupted his masking. His true appearance another thing to blame on the Jedi.
(He lies about everything he tells the senate including that.)

Evidence to support it:

1)The clear way that you can see him feigning a more vulnerable condition than he was in: "I cant hold it anylonger Im too weak...too weak..." Next minute BLAMMMMMM ultra stron force lightning's mace out the window.

2) TWICE in that fight, Mace is found with his center line open, arms out either side, with Palp's lightsabre right within thrust range, and Palps lets him off twice (Anakin still hadnt arrived yet, then).

3) The kind of Force lightning attacks we see Luke hit with in ROTJ didnt yellow his eyes, rot his teeth and make his skin pale.
Or Mace's.

4) As a big fan of CW cartoon, you will note the hologram of Palpatine has the teeth and 'the voice', pre-ROTS.
We also here 'the voice' in TPM and AOTC too.
Quite the statement in a series you aledge was "Lucas' hands on" with.

Thats plenty to support the notion.


Lucas himself has already stated in an interview that Mace beat Sideous legitimately. In that same interview, I believe, he stated that "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to defeat Palpatie", as of RotS.

So, it's pretty cut and dry.

EDIT-

It's in the Return of the Sith commentary on the DVD. Just checked.


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Last edited by Final Blaxican on Feb 11th, 2009 at 05:07 AM

Old Post Feb 11th, 2009 05:03 AM
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Sadako of Girth
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Really, well Palps shouldnt have f**ked about so much on the job then..
And he was definitely pretending to be more hurt than he was.

I will check the commentary as I have no recollection of him having said that.


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Old Post Feb 11th, 2009 05:40 AM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
1) No its not.


Links, or it didn't happen.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
2) The Flash Thompson fight scene showing how much faster Peter percieves time with Spidey sense.



And then you've got Peter Park in the rest of the three movies. He doesn't pull that kind of stunt the rest of all three films. We can disregard PIS when it's just that, PIS. Like I said, there's plenty of PIS in the Star Wars films that make the Jedi look boss. I think it's retarded to use those PIS moments to make a case for either side. The Star Wars fans tried to do it with the force speed thing and I called them on it. Why would I allow a double standard?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
3) It is because there was enough conflict to generate this discussion.


I'm only referring to Mace Windu's use of force Crush. Not necessary to the discussion because I don't think it's applicable enough to be canon. However, Vader can use it, no problem, on a much grander scale then Mace. no expression

I'm sure you'd like me to point out that it is really an EU power and it is very very hard to use and, therefore, no one can use it except Vader.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
4) As I proved with that video, there is enough of the way Sidious plays that whole deal to indictate ambigiously granted that he was playing with Mace, satlling til the moment Anakin arrived.


That's simply not the case, though. Like I said, you can't interpret it the way you want when it directly contradicts canon. You can use logic, sure. But when that logic, even though it's logical, conflicts with the canon story, you logic be damned.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
It was a way to get Senate sympathy and Anakin's defence.)


I agree that Palps used that situation to his advantage. He's a genius.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
When Mace defelected the lightning back at Palps I disrupted his masking..)


No. erm

This is absolutely false. That is not canon. That is not even EU. He "took off his mask" when confronted by Mace and crew. That was his real appearance.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
His true appearance another thing to blame on the Jedi.
(He lies about everything he tells the senate including that.)


I agree. He used his face being messed up by his own force lightening being reflected back on him (with Vaapad, no less no expression ) to his advantage. Palps is the man.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Evidence to support it:

1)The clear way that you can see him feigning a more vulnerable condition than he was in: "I cant hold it anylonger Im too weak...too weak..." Next minute BLAMMMMMM ultra stron force lightning's mace out the window. .)


I agree that Sids was using that situation to his advantage, however, it was AFTER he was defeated by Mace. no expression

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
2) TWICE in that fight, Mace is found with his center line open, arms out either side, with Palp's lightsabre right within thrust range, and Palps lets him off twice (Anakin still hadnt arrived yet, then)


This is your own erroneous interpretation of the events that happened. It's simply not the case. Mace had the entire duel under control. What you're saying also contradicts the direction the saber fights choreographer received. He rated Palps, Yoda, and Anakin 9, and called Mace a special case.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
3) The kind of Force lightning attacks we see Luke hit with in ROTJ didnt yellow his eyes, rot his teeth and make his skin pale.
Or Mace's.


This, my friend, is PIS. Also, he was just playing with Skywalker until the last part.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
4) As a big fan of CW cartoon, you will note the hologram of Palpatine has the teeth and 'the voice', pre-ROTS.
We also here 'the voice' in TPM and AOTC too.
Quite the statement in a series you aledge was "Lucas' hands on" with..


You just dug yourself into a logic hole. You can't use the EU material as canon, especially when Genndy take a lot of artistic liberties in the characters. It is also an animation. Since I only literally said 2 or 3 RoTS tie-ins, your point is border line libel.

Palps shows up, starting in the TPM with a normal face and the "voice" on multiple occasions. Your logic would be true had it actually been factual at any part of any of the films except AFTER he got his face burned by his own lightening.

Also, no where do we see the Sith change faces. That would be an EU video game thing. Sure, the eyes changed in Ani...but that's just about it.

What about Dooku? He used force lightening. Something no one but Palps used in all 6 movies. Where's his ugly face? It wasn't exactly a secret of his that he was a bad guy once he was revealed.



Also, let's not cover this face thing again. You are wrong about it and you know you are wrong. This is not Harry Potter and Palps wasn't using a polyjuice potion to change his appearnce. We know this for a fact based on the little bit of his face we get to see throughout the OT.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Thats plenty to support the notion.


And almost every last point had something wrong with it.


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Old Post Feb 11th, 2009 05:05 PM
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Sadako of Girth
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So did all your EU over movies assertions through out the batman vs Jango and Spidey vs Jedi threads, as you based your assessment of Jedi capability on EU, and cited EU as evidence of why we were all so wrong. roll eyes (sarcastic) .

There is enough to rule the scene played as ambiguously.
My points are there on screen to see, and I know Im not the only one to percieved it that way.


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Last edited by Sadako of Girth on Feb 11th, 2009 at 08:19 PM

Old Post Feb 11th, 2009 08:05 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
So did all your EU over movies assertions through out the batman vs Jango and Spidey vs Jedi threads, as you based your assessment of Jedi capability on EU,


Uh, no. I've already covered, there's no reason for us to go "nuh uhh!" "uh huhhh!" at each other. Force crush, canon for Darth Vader. Force Crush, EU for Mace until I look over the CW commentary.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
and cited EU as evidence of why we were all so wrong. roll eyes (sarcastic).


No. You may be confusing me for someone else.



T
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
here is enough to rule the scene played as ambiguously.
My points are there on screen to see, and I know Im not the only one to percieved it that way.


No, there's not. You can perceive it incorrectly as long as you want. The movies are there to enjoy and I'll never fault you for enjoying them with your own interpretations. But, you're perception is incorrect and I can at least try to set you straight. I would fully agree with you if the novelization agreed with you, as would millions of other fans. However, the movie played out quite clearly that Mace pwned Sidious with sabers and Anakin caused the death of Mace because he was too blind and arrogant to see that Anakin was falling to the dark side.


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Old Post Feb 11th, 2009 09:00 PM
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Sadako of Girth
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Nope I was definitely remember you saying that all Jedi were as accurate with a lightsabre as Anakin, and you asserted that Maces CW feats counted in the discussion at hand.

The motive that you assert is not depicted on screen in unambiguous way.
You're going to learn that truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view, Dadudamon.

I say EU is wrong and bullshit. You indulge it all the way and think it has any bearing on what is or isnt in film canon. I dont call you wrong for it. Sorry if it angers you to not have someone see something the way you do, but hey, what else is the internet for...


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Last edited by Sadako of Girth on Feb 12th, 2009 at 12:48 AM

Old Post Feb 12th, 2009 12:45 AM
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What you said, but I dont think Mace was too blind or arrogant. I think he placed some trust in Anakin.

"If what you have said is true, you will have gained my trust."


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2009 12:46 AM
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Sadako of Girth
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"Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design"
Palpatine, Return of the Jedi

If people are blind to how Palpatine is playing wounded to illicit a decisive reaction from Anakin in that scene, then I too must abide by the "accepting it" thing.


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2009 12:49 AM
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Final Blaxican
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Mace's quote is more infallible. Sideous is an egotistical maniac. Lying is and flatting himself is what he does best.


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2009 12:51 AM
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Yes, everything except getting his wrinkly ass kicked.


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2009 12:51 AM
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Sadako of Girth
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So Mace was better than Yoda, in your book...?

And youre right he lied to the senate about his attack, what motivated the attack, that he was gonna build a nice safe secure empire, yet magically he tells the truth about the attack leaving him scarred and deformed...? Is it not odd to you that that would be the only bit of truth, the way you see it, to emerge from his cakehole in that scene...?

Or is it more likely that you are right, and that he lies about everything..?

Not ONE trace ANYWHERE in the saga of the Force lightning doing that to anyone, (making them pasty, yellow eyed and with crazy dentistry, and making their head look like an elephants nutsack.)

And even EU depicts Palpatine arrearing over holograms in full Emporer-level-of-messed-up appearance.


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Last edited by Sadako of Girth on Feb 12th, 2009 at 12:59 AM

Old Post Feb 12th, 2009 12:52 AM
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No. I'm right in that he has a habit that all villains have of fellating himself and his feats to godly and untrue proportions.

Sideous rise to power relied just as much on luck and happenstance as it did on his own cunning. More, in fact.

And just because Mace beat Sideous, doesn't make him superiro to Yoda. Yoda more likely then not would have won that duel against Sideous had he not fallen off the platform. Yoda was clsoer to the edge and smaller, thus when the explosion happened he flew farther back and just fell. At that point an army of cloens was converging to Sideous poisition, and Yoda couldn't kill Sideous and the entire detachment of clones by himself, thus he was screwed.

He lost due to events out of anyone's control, not because of a lack of skill. Hell, nearly getting his ass kicked by Yoda wasn't apart of the plan, either. Melting his own face wasn't apart of the plan either.


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Last edited by Final Blaxican on Feb 12th, 2009 at 01:01 AM

Old Post Feb 12th, 2009 12:58 AM
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Some people think Mace was the best swordsman in the order. Just saying.

With Yoda, he was caught off guard by Sidious's force attack. If the saber battle had continued, Yoda would have pwned him.


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2009 01:01 AM
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Luck like secretly setting up a clone army, the clone wars, using every major scum bag in the galaxy for his own ends for an onscreen time of like 38ish yrs in order to promote himself...?

That takes foresight, planning and patient execution, when you need luck, call McClane wink (Mind you he made his own luck too) .


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2009 01:02 AM
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Yoda was winning the force duel between himself and Sideous. At first he was surprised and he lost his lightsaber. Then he gets that glint in his eye and he starts to push Sideous own lightning back at that him.

Neither Yoda nor Mace were Sideous inferior in any aspect except for intelligence, I'd say.


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2009 01:03 AM
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Sadako of Girth
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Faces dont melt.


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2009 01:04 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Luck like secretly setting up a clone army, the clone wars, using every major scum bag in the galaxy for his own ends for an onscreen time of like 38ish yrs in order to promote himself...?


No, luck like Anakin coming along when he did, having the shitty childhood that he had, the Jedi having a false sense of security and being haughty at the time that it was, Maul managing to kill Qui-Gon but failing to kill Obi-Wan, etc.


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2009 01:05 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Yoda was winning the force duel between himself and Sideous. At first he was surprised and he lost his lightsaber. Then he gets that glint in his eye and he starts to push Sideous own lightning back at that him.

Neither Yoda nor Mace were Sideous inferior in any aspect except for intelligence, I'd say.
Never said Yoda was inferior, only that he was taken by surprise, as you just said.


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2009 01:06 AM
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