You don't realize that he was there in spirit? The dragon was never summoned and an official wish granted. His sons were the ones doing the work.
Also, if he were really there, where's his Halo?
And the Dragon Balls do not have the ability to bring Goku back, remember? He already died once and was brought back.
Finally, if he were actually there and we discard all evidence the he really wasn't there, it was plain jane PIS...as was the fact the Gohan was supposed to be SSJ2, Broli alive, and Broli actually being able to do anything after his "guts" were busted open in 8 and we only see the equivalent of an abrasion in 10.
No evidence to back this up.
Proof?
But it was.
If only Goku were really there.
I guess I should be clearer. I'm referring to the entire energy blast which also includes where it is originating at the person firing, and not just the "ball" itself. When Gohan steps forward, the "beam" is mega-huge. And the density of the blast was very high. It had to be intense enough to destroy every last bit of Cell.
And, generally, the bigger the blast, the more powerful it is.
First, Goten didn't wish Gokou back. He wished to defeat Broli. The Dragonballs shot off afterwards making it fufil the wish. Next the Dragonballs by Dende can bring people back to life more than once. That was only a restriction on Kami's set.
They didn't want to draw lightning around Gohan at ssj2, didn't bring out Shenron even though a wish was granted, and now just because Gokou didn't have a halo he's suddenly not there?
Just because it's PIS him surviving, him finding a ship at all on New Vegeta, and all that doesn't change the fact he did do all that. Gokou coming down to help while probably PIS doesn't suddenly mean he didn't come down.
Dabura is around Cell's level and Gohan is able to keep up with him. Proof.
Trunks, and Goten were able to keep up with 18 even when they weren't able to really able to move properly. And even if that's not proof enough 18 admits Trunks would have done some serious damage had his blast connected, and Goten and Trunks are the same strength just about. Goten is in 18's power range.
Except there isn't any reason to think it is weaker. And there isn't any proof Gokou didn't come down. Nobody was wished back to life Goten didn't even wish for Gokou except in the American version. He wished for help, and Gokou appeared. Gokou's gone down to Earth before in movie 9 and hit Bojack so him coming down to fire a blast isn't any different.
Gohan's blast after Cell get distracted does get bigger yes but not that much bigger at all. Still way smaller than Cell's Kamehameha he first used. And bigger doesn't always equal more power. Freeza's death beam is small but is more powerful than his normal ki blasts. Again Cell's first Kamehameha. Broli did with a normal ki blast and no charging up that Freeza, Gokou, Vegeta, and Cell all had to charge their super attacks to accomplish.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
This is factually incorrect. Goten really does wish his father was there to help. Furthermore, he wishes his dad was there, in his head.
As you say, he wishes just for help in the Japanese version, but it is still in his head. There's a major problem with this. I'll explain more, next.
Here's a list of problems with the Dragonballs being used:
1. The Dragonballs could not have granted any wish as an incantation is required to get them to work to begin with. As I recall, it has to be precise.
2. Shenron did not appear. He wasn't called forth properly (see point 1), and he never said, "your wish has been granted." No wish was ever made.
3. The entire wish sequence is so completely wrong and messed up that it's retarded. Why would the dragonballs shoot off when no wish was made?
4. Goku even appears "ethereal" when coming out of the clouds, furthering the point that it was in spirit and not actually there. To further that point, he had no Halo and he disappeared into nothing when he "left". He should of had a halo.
5. There is no proof that at the "time" when Movie 10 occurred, the Dragonballs could not revive a person who had been dead more than once. If you can prove it, I will concede this point. Conceding 1 point out of the 5 doesn't do anything, though. And, as you later point out, he didn't need to be revived anyway. So why no halo? So this point is partially applicable.
No, but all the other points certainly do mean it. There's also the fact that Broli got his guts punched out, basically, from that punch. It was absurdly deep. Not the wound we see him have in movie 10, for sure. PIS? Yup. Sorry attempt to bring back a dead character for the fans? Yup. Power continuity problems with the character and Gohan? Yup.
Where is your proof of that claim? Did another character say that?
I guess you're forgetting that she was holding way back, the serious damage comment is absurd PIS, and she stops holding back and the moment she does, he beats the shit out of them. (She doesn't know that they are Goten and Trunks so she holds waaaaay back to keep from killing the fighter. Proof of this is her quick defeat of those two once she realizes who it is.)
This is why I asked you because I thought that that was your logic. Why did those two get scared all of a sudden when she figured them out? It's obvious. Because they knew she was holding way back.
I agree that he didn't wish Goku back to life. That's pretty much the extent of it. Goku really wasn't there. It's pretty simple. And if he was, then everything was so screwed up in that movie that it can't be used in a debate at all. Which is true, anyway.
I don't have the Japanese version. However, if that's what he wished in his head, that makes the case even worse for Goku actually being there.
And Goku coming down like that in Bojack is PIS, as well. It simply could not happen, canonically. The goes against many different unbreakable rules in DBZ.
Broli doesn't even exist, canonically.
Frieza's death beam has a really high piercing power/ ability, similar to a destructo disc but in the form of a beam. As far as destructive power goes, it is not very powerful.
And, no, the larger the attack, the more powerful it is, ALWAYS in DBZ, if it is the same attack used. The only counter example you have is Gohan piercing through Cell's attack, that's it.
The Kamehameha in movie 10 dissolved Broli's big ball of green energy attack, BTW, so that's not a second example.
He makes the wish in his head. He wished for help in the Japanese version not Gokou.
There is a lot of problems with that movie but a wish was granted. The dragonballs glow when it happens, and then afterwards they fly off just like after a wish has been done. Not to mention the fact that the dragon should give two wishes not one.
The movie takes place 7 years after Cell..Dende upgraded the balls during the Cell saga. Yea they can revive people that's died more than once. But they didn't revive him. And Gokou comes down all etheral during Bojack movie, and punches Bojack even though he's not suppose to be able to.
It's a movie, which all of them make no sense. It not making any sense still doesn't prove Gokou isn't there. Him not having a halo doesn't prove he isn't there. Broli surviving with a gapping chest wound that shouldn't be doesn't mean anything either. All the movies are filled with plot holes, movies more than anything else.
Gokou states that Dabura is as strong as Cell..Never states Perfect of Super Perfect. And then when Dabura is fighting Gohan he states that Dabura is stronger than he thought. And Gohan at ssj was fighting with him just about evenly.
She was scared of the blast..And they didn't fight after she figured out who they were. They tried to dodge the destructo disk in opposite directions. They ran away probably because they were going to get into trouble. They knew how strong she was to begin with.
Goten wishes for help to defeat Broli, Gokou comes down and helps. Just because it can't happen in canon doesn't mean it can't happen in a movie that isn't canon to begin with. The same rules don't apply. It's no Akira's world of DB it's the anime studio's world.
I was talking about Broli destroying a planet. In movie 8 he just throws a ki blast and destroys a planet. Meanwhile both Cell and Gokou had to charge up Kamehameha's to attempt to destroy Earth, Vegeta had to charge his Galic Gun a lot and was claiming he could destroy Earth, Freeza had to use a super attack, and that didn't even destroy Namek outright. And most blasts are never that huge to begin with.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
That doesn't help "your" side at all. That makes it worse.
Correcto.
Indeed. I have, for the longest time, thought that these were not really DBZ type things but jsut movies that are only vaguely similar to their power in their chronological compliment in the DBZ anime. They use the names and, generally, use the power.
Now, what is more believable. The writers/animators/story director, etc. were too lazy to draw Gohan in SSJ correctly....OR, they, not being very familiar with actual story continuity, jsut made a movie around the characters and didn't bother with it. Then, when the fans started to whine and complain, they say, "oh, no, we made Gohan SSJ2, we just didn't draw him like that and make any reference to him being like that in the series." To me, that seems much more plausible than them just being lazy. More like they didn't know what they were supposed to be drawing or how power continuity worked.
Then...Dabura is closer to full power SSJ in strength...still very far away from SSJ2 in terms of strength. Here's why: Goku never saw super perfect cell...at least not Cell powered all the way up into Super Perfect strength.
They certainly tried.
The future Android 18 could decimate cities while just playing around. The Android 18 from real continuity was even stronger, according to Trunks as his coming back changed things. And the fact that she was afraid is absurd PIS as a final flash, pre-HBTC, was not enough to even damage Android 18. Unless that energy blast was on scale with destroying a planet, there's not reason she should be afraid.
Or, how about the real reason?
They were running away becaue they knew that she wouldn't hold back anymore, as they had agreed on before the tournament. The boys are just SSJ, like Future Trunks was. I would guess that they are not as strong as Future Trunks was when Future Trunks came back from the future. They most certainly did not ascend to level 2 or ultra supersaiyan.
Then entire fight was PIS. Continuity problems in power, as usual.
Exactly. So why are you telling me this? I've been trying to convey this to you for a while.
You're forgetting that Broli did the same thing with a regular blast in 10 and it expanded to a huge size shortly thereafter. Logic dictactes that a size like that would be enough to destroy a planet, or not. It's also PIS.
We "hear" from Babidi that 300 Killas is enough to destroy a planet.
How? Because Gokou is not the only thing that came with the "wish".
The anime stuido's don't bother with continuity to begin with. Them not drawing the lightning really doesn't seem that impossible when it looked like they just reused images from movie 8 when Broli went lssj in 10. And drew Broli with blonde hair at ssj in 10 when he didn't have it in 8.
And I said Perfect Cell..Not Super Perfect. And Gokou did see Super Perfect Cell, and knew he was stronger. He was talking to Gohan the whole time. Still Gohan was able to keep up with somebody stronger than Perfect Cell while just being ssj. Which means he can't be that much weaker like Vegeta kept saying. And Gokou was fpssj and Cell was stronger than that..So Dabura was stronger than a fpssj.
Just because they are ssj doesn't mean much. They were found out so why would they stay? When they knew they did something they weren't suppose to. 18 holding back still would've been able to dodge them easily if she was so much more powerful. She can't increase or decrease her ki like the others so she can't get slower or faster based on ki. And Goten and Trunks weren't exactly in the best of form when fighting her.
It doesn't take earth destroying attacks to hurt them. Gokou against Cell had to dodge regular ki blasts that didn't do anything but make large craters. The blast from Trunks was extremely powerful, even 18 admits to it. That's why she said she has to end this and throws the Destructo Disk. And Goten and Trunks never attempt to fight her after they fly off as soon as the costume is cut in half.
How is it PIS. It's non-canon, and Broli had destroyed the whole south galaxy before the movie started. I don't think he did it in one-shot but he was still able to destroy planets easily. Even if that same attack he used in 10 was the one he did to destroy the planet it was still not a charged attack.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Because he didn't wish for his father to come back. He had an ambiguous wish. He never wished for his father and Shenron just happened to choose Goku.
No, Goku was SSJ2 against Super Pefect Cell. Goku saw him in the after life, sure...but he didn't see him powered up. And, no, Vegeta said Gohan was much weaker because he was. Goku even agrees and talks about it being peaceful, etc.
So, now, all of a sudden child super saiyans are stronger than Android 18. That doesn't strike you as PIS at all? Not after Vegeta fired a final flash directly at 18 and she tanked it like it was nothing?
You see, this is PIS as well. Dodging those tiny attacks is PIS to the max. Goku, in movie 8, is running straight through Broli's tiny tiny attacks that aren't even strong by Dragonball standards, yet he is all dazed and almost knocked out towards the end and then Broli upcuts him.
You don't think destroying an entire south galaxy is PIS? Do you realize how large a galaxy is? Even a low estimate would put the South Galaxy at 100,000,000,000 stars, including their planets. How was he able to travel all that distance and destroy it?
Now, if someone said that by the time we start approaching SSJ2 power levels, I would agree that a regular Ki blast would wipe out an entire galaxy. Since the powers don't scale properly, it's not he case. All "higher" powers do is allow the characters to fight even with the villians and defeat them despite the same exact powers being shown almost every time.
And, Broli doesn't even stand a chance at defeating a serious Fat Buu. Not even close.
This is Gokou. He's chosen for everything. And even combined they would never have gotten pass the blast if the other part of the wish hadn't of kept Broli from putting more energy into the blast.
Yes, but if he was so much weaker how was he taking on somebody Gokou said was stronger than Perfect Cell and only being ssj when as a kid at ssj he was only as strong as Perfect Cell perhaps a little weaker.
The fact they are half-breeds, and were able to go super saiyan by themselves while being so young and not really training that much. Yea I'd say it's PIS but that doesn't make it any less true. And just because she tanked ssj Vegeta's big bang attack doesn't suddenly mean anything. Goten and Trunks would be stronger anyway if they could hurt her.
How is that PIS?
You do realize they had FTL ships? And Broli doesn't destroy all of it. And it's not like does it in one day or all at once. Broli had 30 years that Paragus was planning his revenge. And probably a good 15 years maybe longer of uncontrolled power to go around destroyed that part of the galaxy. And like I said I don't believe he did it in one-shot.
While I do agree he doesn't beat Fat Buu it's not because of his power being weaker. It's Buu being able to regen and being able to absorb him.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Other part of the wish? What are you talking about? Didn't Trunks' blast form a shield. (The quality I have of the movie is shitty...so I can't tell if the blasts explode on a barrier right before the big ball, or right on the ball.
It's called PIS, sir. DBZ is full of it.
Them turning super Saiyan is also PIS, sir. And those kids doing any sort of damage to her is also PIS, sir.
He didn't do it one shot, correct.
However, in order for him to destroy the Galaxy, which, by the way, occurred rather quickly as, all of a sudden, King Kai did his "ohh nooo" shit. So he very well could have one shotted.
However, destroying 100,000,000,000 stars would be impossible in the time given, unless it was "one shotted". That would be cool if that were the case, though, because it would be closer to being on par with what I think proper scaling should be. If he destroyed 100 star systems a second, that'd be 1,000,000,000 seconds needed. Since we have NEVER seen something on that scale before, 100 star systems a second is very much retarded. Do you get the feeling how hopelessly filled with PIS DBZ is? The lot of it. The manga, the Anime, and the movies.
Since Broli is weaker than a SSJ2, this ends rather quickly as Buu hands Broli's ass to him as easily as he did to the Z fighters in 8.
There is no blasts that forms barriers. There can be no other reason except Goten's wish to defeat broli that kept it from doing it. They explode before the ball. By a good distance it looks like.
Them being able to go ssj3 as Gotenks in a few hours time..well real world time is also PIS. But that doesn't change the fact they are that powerful. Heck by the time Goten gets out of the Spirit and Time room he's probably a lot stronger than 18. But that doesn't help any since that would be after the Broli fight.
Except that's a huge plot hole movie 8 has. Because for that to occur it means Broli has to destroy the south galaxy, they have to get from the south galaxy to the north galaxy, subdue Broli, put him on the other planet, and then go get Vegeta. All in the span of how long it takes King Kai to contact Gokou. And the fact that..South Galaxy is still intact pretty much means he didn't one-shot it anyway.
Except Broli's feats are on par with Kid Buu. Even then Kid Buu only destroyed a couple hundred planets. Broli took out almost a whole galaxy. They both also blew up a planet without any kind of chain reaction involved. Buu's durability is also vastly superior to anybody in dragonball. His vastly superior strength is useless though against Buu. When he did use his speed it was like Jeice and Burta vs Gokou all over again also proving how much faster he was than any of them. Broli's low showing of him loosing doesn't take away how vastly superior he was to them. His defeat is the most PIS in DB. Right next to ssj levels to get somebody stronger quicker and Kid Buu's defeat.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Then explain the barrier without Shenron. You can't. DB wiki indicates that Trunks made a barrier...so apparently, there is agreement among many db fans that he did form a barrier. That is closer to being logical than to assume Shenron formed a barrier without a wish.
I can't see it. Still downloading a higher quality version now.
No its not. When the powers combine in a fusion, the power level of the user increases exponentially. However, them being super saiyan to begin with is PIS. First, the power level has to be huge. Then, they have to fulfill a need.
Since Vegeta was "high level" nobility and his powerlevel was only in the 20,000s range, despite fighting all the time, he wasn't able to turn supersaiyan. Unless Goku's children were born with rediculously high power levels, then there's no way they can be a supersaiyan. In fact, when we flash back when Goten first turns supersaiyan, his mother, of all peopole, is able to give him a run for his money. When he turns supersaiyan for the first time, it is complete (unlike Goku's), and he gives his mother a run for her money. However, it wasn't absurd, like it would be if any other supersaiyan fought. So, Goten was weak weak weak as a supersaiyan when he first turned into it...compared to other supersaiyans, which is logical fallacy #1. Since he was weak as a supersiayan, that also furthers my point as a supersaiyan was the epitome of the saiyan race and many other saiyans would have been stronger than goten, non-supersaiyan.
So, we can assume that Goten and Trunks are just really weak for supersaiyans. However, that's not even the case, either, as they exhibit "super powerup" at the look out. Now do you see what I mean by PIS to the max? It's got so much of it that it's retarded.
I disagree...if I am to be logical about it. There's no way Goten would even be close to 18. Goku trained there when he was a boy..older than Goten. So why didn't Goku get such a big powerboost?
But, the galaxy "darkens", meaning, all stars and hot gases were destroyed.
But, yes, I agree. There's no way he could have done that.
Which is PIS. He shouldn't have been able to do it. It is a chronological impossibility.
People have been able to blow up planets with ease for a long time. Piccolo did it (it, by destroying the moon) no problem with a power level less than a thousand. Didn't Roshi do the same with a power level of less than 200?
You mean his "weaker" strength is useless against Buu.
No, there wasn't any reverse "Jeice-Burter" action against Goku. The speed gap isn't nearly that much. Not even close. He is marginally faster than the others, at best.
I agree that Broli getting defeated was PIS to the max. No where in all of DB do we see someone's power increasing by people sending them Ki. We do see, however, Buu's power increase when he absorbs them with his "magical absorption" abilities, though. However, had Goku and Gohan finished their full power SSJ form, they would have whooped up on Broli like he was nothing. The difference in power when Vegeta and Trunks go in and comes out is phenomenal. Goku and Gohan were that much stronger than Vegeta and Trunks when they came out. Goku was very close to Perfect Cell in power. Broli gave Vegeta the beat down just as easily has Perfect Cell did to Vegeta....actually, Cell did it easier as he wasn't trying at his best. Broli was maxed out on power, else he would have exploded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcFEWcahDP4&fmt=18 It's in Japanese though. But Trunks blasts stops the first one. The others shouldn't have been at all. Though you can notice how when Goten says Shenron he doesn't mention father at all. Which they say once they hear Gokou's voice.
Yes, the power combines of the two people. But still they trained for less than a year to achieve it when it took Gokou about seven.
Goten was also strong enough that Gohan could barley dodge a rock, and was able to throw said rock through the mountain. It's not PIS Goten is strong because they do train..Trunks and Goten that is..but more PIS that ChiChi was doing anything unless Goten held back.
This is DB. Nobody gets logical power ups.
Yet every time a planet is in need of blowing up a charge is required. And Piccolo's normal ki blast blew up the moon yet Cell's normal ki blasts that Gokou had to dodge did nothing except create large craters. Piccolo blowing up the moon was more for plot than anything else.
Broli would be vastly superior in physical strength.
It was a reverse Burta-Jeice thing. At least how Gokou did it in the manga. He dodged Gokou and Piccolo like they were nothing just moving his upper body. Not moving from the spot at all.
Yea you do. Piccolo takes ki from Gohan and Krillen in the Freeza fight. And also everybody except Vegeta would have had an huge power boost in the seond half of the fight yet Broli still treated them like nothing.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
So, is it not like the power up Piccolo gets when combining with nail and later, Kami? Both of those were huge power increases. The fusion technique is less than Namekian combination and the Kai's earing combination.
1. The rock would have shattered against that large rock/mountain. PIS.
2. Goten getting the crap beat out of him by his mother and then going super saiyan and beating the crap out of his mother is hardly holding back.
3. Gohan was out of shape. Later, Goten is seen throwing rocks at a mad pace while Gohan easily dodges all of them. Gohan was just warming up and needed to exercise his reflexes.
Agreed.
There are DB fans who "figured out" why this can be. The attacks that would do damage to a DB fighter that just make large craters are concentrated energy. Frieza's huge energy ball is not concentrated. Broli's is when he fires at Gohan in 10.
However, generally, the larger the blast, the more powerful.
Stronger? Yes.
Vastly? No. Not even close. Marginal at best.
The difference is...we actually don't see Goku moving at all.
Ah. That's right. And they had to channel through Piccolo to do it. Makes sense now. The Namekians are "magical" like that.
Sure its a huge power up. But even then they trained for a few weeks to get it. They were only in the spirit and time room for like half an hour to an hour real world time to get it.
A lot of things in DB is PIS. Doesn't make then not happen.
And yet Goten was able to keep up with Gohan while Gohan was holding back sure but even then they were training doing stuff Videl wasn't able to do. Yet ChiChi who is weaker than Videl was able to hurt Goten? That's PIS on the ChiChi part. Trunks was also able to get a glancing blow on Vegeta, and wasn't badly injured by a punch from Vegeta that was just a reaction to the hit so it wasn't held back. Even Vegeta gets a oh no look when he does it.
Or Piccolo's blast was just PIS because every other instance not only are they slower the planet destroying blasts have always been charged. The Kamehameha, and Special Beam Cannon are concentrated energy. They focus all their energy into one spot. It's explained by Radditz.
Except like I said. In the manga Gokou isn't shown doing what he does in the manga. He doesn't appear to not move while moving. He just effortlessly dodges and blocks them.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
I disagree that Goten fighting his mother was PIS. I agree that Goten even remotely keeping up with Gohan is PIS, assuming Gohan wasn't just holding waaaay back. I don't think Goten should even be a super saiyan. At that point, it was too much and SSJ became something trivial. It should have stayed at Goku and that's IT. Goku should have been the only LSS. Instead, everyone with saiyan blood becomes a LSS....making it not a legendary status at all.
And Trunks even being able to fight at all with his father is PIS. "DRY YOUR TEARS! WE'RE GOING TO THE PARK!"
Of course it's all concentrated. All those attacks like that are. However, the more power put into the, the bigger. But some fans go onto explain absurd PIS moments like...why is this simple blast only making a small tiny explosion, yet the fighter gets slightly damaged? Why doesn't every single attack, after a certain point, destroy the planet with the tiny attack (like it should)? They posit that each attack is concentrated super much so that planet tankers which are any supersaiyan, can receive the damage. Well, here's the hole in that logic. If that were the case then the closer they are to getting knocked out, the worse their control would be and then they would destroy the planet AND every single villain would destroy the planet once they started to lose.
Yet Goten is that strong. No matter what you think they are that powerful. Also when Goten threw that rock Gohan was ssj so it shouldn't of been a problem if Goten was weak enough to fight ChiChi evenly. And he even hurts Gohan when they first start sparring.Though the ChiChi thing isn't shown in the manga that I can find. All it mentions is Goten showed her, and that ChiChi taught him to fight.
Vegeta underestimated Trunks and was holding back a lot. The punch was the only thing that wasn't held back. That's the only reason Trunks got a glancing blow.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Yes it was held back. He hit him hard enough to get him slightly away, else he would have flown 4 or 5 miles in the other direction. Since Vegeta didn't want to damage his training room, kill his son, cause a ruckus, kill other people, damage West City, he held back.
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May 26th, 2009 06:22 AM
