Well between the two scans we have someone Identifying Ichigo's power fluctuating and Shirosaki admitting he denying Ichigo power so he could take over his soul.
Fair enough, I concede on the training point (for now ). Unless they had some sort of Spirit room (ala DBZ), they couldn't have gained a significant power boost.
Impressive, you have interesting theories. .
Ichigo drop in power makes sense up to a certain point.
Ichigo dipped in power during the gap between SS and the Arrancar arc. He soon regained his original power level and he's long since surpassed the level of power that he demonstrated against Byakuya. Though fair enough, the Bankai Ichigo that fought Grimmjow the first time did seem inferior to the version that appeared when he first activated Bankai.
Another reason could be that the base level of his opponents have been increased, i.e. the bar has been raised.
I have a similar theory...similar.
Zangetsu has most often been the dominant force. The only times Shirosaki has had control over Ichigo (and subjugated Zangetsu) where when he appeared during the fight with Byakuya, the training with the Vizard, and during the fight against Ulquiorra.
I believe that the changes in his mask have reflected his reliance on his hollow side, the amount of control the hollow has as well as the physical state of Ichigo.
The first few appearances of the mask had very few black lines, and those were the times where the mask would just appear to block damage. Pretty soon, Hollow Ichigo broke out but it was in Ichigo's form, so the mask did not change (much?).
Not long after, Hollow Ichigo appears again, this time in a newer form. The mask changes yet again.
Later he gains some control over his hollow powers while being able to stay with his psyche intact for the most part. This mask gains more black lines (10 iirc). Then comes the final fight with Grimmjow where he gains another line that occurs almost simultaneously with the extension of his time limit.
Finally we have his infamous fight against Ulquiorra. The one where Hollow Ichigo appears yet again, this time with a mask unlike any of his other masks. The difference? The Black lines are on the left and the right side. During his fight against Yammy, Ichigo's hollow mask takes on a similar appearance, with lesser lines but on both sides of the mask. This is coupled with a complete hollow eye.
Thus my theory is such; as Ichigo slowly starts to rely more and more on his hollow side, said 'side' grows in control and influence. Ichigo has a finite amount of power in his reserve, the limit of which may or may not be increasing (though in all likelihood, it is increasing).
Thus the balance of power is slowly shifting towards his hollow side. This is turn may explain why Bankai Ichigo appears weaker. His shinigami powers are steadily growing weaker. Concurrently, Ichigo's hollow powers (and access to them while being a Vizard) are evolving, getting stronger; this is demonstrated through the appearance of the newer, stronger Hollow Ichigo in the fight against against Uluqiorra, as well as his slight personality shift against Yammy as noted by Rukia.
__________________
"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
Last edited by Demonic Phoenix on Nov 5th, 2009 at 07:03 AM
Barragan is a Vasto Lorde. His physique and appearance do not fit that of an Adjuchas. It's even possible that Espada's 4 and higher are Vasto Lordes due to the limit imposed by Aizen.
__________________
"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
Uhhh...No...He never says that. Look at your scan again. He says the more power Ichigo uses, the easier it becomes for him to take over.
Also, yet again, Of course his power fluctuated and of course Ulquiorra noticed. Ichigo began the fight with every intent of ending Yammy right there. Once he began using his power though, he could feel Shirosaki taking over. Not wanting that, he lowered his power. Ulquiorra noticed it, thats all that scan proves...
Ichigo may fight on a lower level during the SS and HM arc, but he does it purposely to prevent Shirosaki from taking him over. Thats all made VERY clear.
It starts fluctuating because there is a struggle, not because Ichigo lowered his power.
__________________
"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
At that point in time, how the hell would he know that by drawing on more power, Shirosaki would take over? Why did Shirosaki not take over during that final strike Ichigo used against Byakuya, where he put all his strength in that last strike?
He was struggling, and his concentration was broken. He was more focused on suppressing Shirosaki than he was on fighting Yammy.
EA has a point as well. His reiatsu was already fluctuating, but Bankai Ichigo was stated to be thrash for most of the fight. However, when the fluctuation increased during the struggle, at it's highest point, it was above Ulquiorra's.
__________________
"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
Last edited by Demonic Phoenix on Nov 5th, 2009 at 08:37 AM
Barragan before becoming an Arrancar ruled over the entirety of Hueco Mundo as its undisputed king, he was obviously a Vasto Lorde.
Nnoitra and Nel Tu were sent to capture a Vasto Lorde by Aizen, Aizen is an intelligent man, he would not send them to do something that was beyond their abilities, though it was probably Nel who was to do most of the fighting.
He is stated to be deliberately causing trouble for Ichigo, reducing his fighting capability to that of effectively zero.
How is it you lower your power?
You mean put less power into your attacks?
I'm confused simply because Ulquiorra was sensing his reaitsu levels, not how much power he was putting out into attacking/defending.
I do not recall anything to make me think you can lower your reaitsu. Conceal it yes, but not lower it.
Perhaps i mis-worded that.
To put it simply, Stark was shown to look as he does now before ever meeting Aizen. Simply put he fits exactly the description given of what is a Vasto Lorde.
Wonderwiess is suggested to be Aizens strongest minion to date, thus i would reason he is also a Vasto Lorde.
In my opinion, and that's all it is, i'm not trying to disprove or argue he isn't. Barragan hasn't got enough behind him to confirm him to be a Vasto Lorde in my eyes. He doesn't look like a human, and he's bigger than one. He's shown to be bigger than Hachii, which means he's not really human sized, as Hachii is a shinigami, and the biggest Shinigami to date minus that gate-guardian in the SS arc. We know nothing about his fighting capabilites reletive to a captain because he's only ever using his time power, which is so broken he doesn't need to use anything else. So we don't really know of his strength or speed etc.
The problem with saying Ulquiorra's silhouette used in the example means Ulquiorra is a Vasto Lorde is simply, he has 2 releases. We've not seen this occur anywhere else in the espada.
That and they are giving an example; which doesn't mean the example has to be. It's just a suggestion to give an idea to the reader. In my opinion i would think Ulquiorra is a VL. He's human sized, his fighting capability is truly far beyond a captains(of what we've seen so far), and he's done it all without trading his high speed regeneration for more power. But for all we know he was a big ugly bat when Aizen found him so... I just wouldn't say he is for certain, yet.
I don't mean to weasel out of a debate, but i don't really want to debate something i'm not certain of my own opinion about.
She posted another scan where Shirosaki even says it himself. He tells Ichigo that the more power he draws will allow Shirosaki to take over. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/20/
Also I'll give you that Shirosaki deliberately lowered Ichigo's Reiatsu in that scan. BUT he only did it because Ichigo refused to draw more on Zangetsu's power. It doesnt have anything to do with Ichigo becoming weaker. Ichigo still had the ability...but not the will.
Though i do not agree I'm going to turn your argument on it's head to make it agree with what i'm saying. Though again i repeat i think you've gotten the details wrong, but that's just what i think.
If he doesn't have the will, he's not fighting at full strength, which means his getting thoroughly owned by Grimmjow is down to this. He acted and fought weaker than he did when fighting Byakuya. Therefore he effectively was weaker. By your logic.
Which fits my argument in this debate well enough.
I've been really forgetful in this arguement...You're correct. His first encounter with Grimmjow had Ichigo holding back since he didnt wantto fall under Shirosaki's control. He did finally release a Getsuga Tenshou which scarred Grimmjow after he finally decided to draw on Zangetsu's power. In which afterwards if I recall correctly you can see traces of black in his eyes representing Shirosaki gaining control.
However, I'm pretty sure Grimmjow got the upper hand on Bankai Ichigo in their third and final encounter before Ichigo goes into Vizard form. Even before that, we see Grimmjow keeping up with Bankai Ichigo with ease, while Ichigo seems to be slightly struggling.
That was AFTER the fight with Yammy. At that point in time (vs. Yammy) Ichigo never knew that by drawing on more power from Zangetsu, Shirosaki would be able to take over.
Not going to comment on my theory ? That's awfully kind of you. Too long to read is it?
__________________
"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
Last edited by Demonic Phoenix on Nov 5th, 2009 at 07:25 PM
Gender: Male Location: home, playing Guilty Gear Xrd.
when Grimmjow fought Ichigo the second time, he not only was doing so with one arm gone, but without his rank. and when he got his rank back after killing Luppi (thank you, Grimmjow) he remarked that his power's back. this could mean that he either lost the authority that came with being an espada or he actually experienced a drop in power when he lost his rank.
but back to the topic of this thread, I'd say Grimmjow wins, but with some considerable effort.
Most likely just the rank. I doubt having his arm blown off would significantly affect his reiatsu.
Fair enough. Though you could have at least stated that you would reply later .
Nothing to do with my happiness, though it's nice to see that you are concerned about that .
__________________
"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
KMC Community Forums
Nov 5th, 2009 06:30 AM
). Unless they had some sort of Spirit room (ala DBZ), they couldn't have gained a significant power boost. 
. 
.
