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Star Wars vs Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Battlestar Galactica
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doan_m
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Well if you prefer that I do bring up counter points then all right.

quote:
Not to mention with this 1st few sentences they limit it to "empire vs federation"...Given thaat the empire run their entire galaxy compared with the federations's non war making tiny fraction of their galaxy it's a bit pointless.

About as "pointless" as any versus debates in general.
quote:
If you want to include ST's more aggressive species...the Borg and the Dominion/Jem Hadar then it's far more balanced.

And what makes the Jem Hadar so special?
quote:
We take it from there. The Borg have far greater numbers....Stated as "billions of vessels containing trillions of drones" which is just the central nexus and doesn't include borg vessels outwith that small area.


quote:
So potentiall hundreds of trillions of drones and hundreds of billions of ships. Compare that with what's known about SW. Han says that it would take a thousand stardestroyers to cause the same damage that the death star caused. Implying that the empire doesn't have a thousand star destroyers.

I canít see how that works. Even within just the context of this sentence, all that he is doing is just giving a comparison of firepower between a deathstar and a thousand ISDs. Nothing to implicate about the actual fleet size itself.

quote:

Take the events after epVI whereby in the Thrawn trilogy, just 500 old republic cruisers of the Katana fleet would swing the balance of power in the galaxy.

Hardly surprising, especially considering that said ships were particularly powerful for its time. Hell a few ships swinging the balance of powers is something that happens often in SW. Look at the Death Star. That ONE ship(battle station is more appropriate term) was more than enough to freak out the Rebellion considering the massive threat it posed to them.
quote:
Given that each Borg cube is large and more powerful than a standard stardestroyer...Then you have an empire that is outnumbered and outgunned by huge degrees.

Outnumbered if you are only counting the lowest possible canon of 25,000. And also if you are discounting most other ships that the GE possesses.


quote:
The Jem Hadar have similar numbers and are a far more aggressive race. Artificially bred solely for war.

Clone Troopers are also bred for war.

quote:
They have personal cloaking builit into their biology. They require no sleep, no rest, no food...They can fight continuously. They can also be artificially made to fighting level in 3 days.
Thatís fine and all. But what feats have they demonstrated on the battlefield? And what would all this mean exactly in the face of an enemy possessing superior firepower?

quote:
ST has ablative armour technology which disapates energy based weapons rendering them useless.
Definitely not a no limits fallacy as you are implying. It has limits and those limits can certainly be overcome by multi gigaton level firepower.

quote:
SW relies solely on energy based weapons. In terms of weaponry, I showed, by canon sources, how a single photon torpedo is some 20+ times more powerful than the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated on earth...the "tsar bomba". SW vessels have nothing as powerful.

Now where is that pictureÖ.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/s...seDeltaZero.jpg
quote:
We've shown in the thread that ST ships are more manueverable at sub light speeds....We've shown they have a larger range (10 fold) than SW ships.

As per the SW:ICS(Episode 2) an acclamator Troop Transport is capable of 3500G. As per the Star Trek Technical Manual 1000G.
quote:
We've shown that while hyperdrive is faster than warp drive....transwarp is WAY faster than hyperdrive.
And just about how standardized is the transwarp drive that it would be sufficiently distributed throughout the fleet to make it sufficient enough to engage with Star Wars?

quote:
So please. Do read the thread and try and counter the points made in it.

Meh. Iím good. Feel free to bring the direct quotes here though. You are after all, the one asserting the evidence so naturally the burden of proof lies on you.

quote:
Namely phased weapons,

quote:
cloaking,

In space? Useless really since by the time you even fire your weapons you are going to give away your position.
quote:
adaptation (by the Borg),

They donít really do well when in the face of firepower magnitudes greater than their own. Or for that matter physical projectiles.
quote:
number of troops/vessels based on canon sources.


quote:
The fact that a phaser can disintegrate a person yet a standard blaster has been shown to hit main characters and cause little injury. (Leia getting shot in the arm) Face it.

Hardly representative of the norm. There is an instance in A New Hope where you see chunks of ferrocrete being blasted out of the walls by Han Solos Blaster.
quote:
ST just has a far longer period and far more material to draw on. Its EU sources are just as large as SW but it's primary canon sources are far greater. hundreds of hours of shows with which to have written and shown far superior technology.

Its got a lot of material to draw on sure. But that doesnít mean that the volume establishes as to who is superior. I.e. There is a crapload of Star Trek material out there but this certainly doesnít put them above the level of the Culture-verse. Or the Hyperion verse for that matter.

quote:
One piece of technology alone gives that ST armies a huge advantage...transporters.
Which works against shielded objects?
quote:
So no...Your link is desperately trying to pull a win out the bag for SW by not including everything the ST galaxy has.

When its titled "Star Wars vs. Star Trek in Five Minutes" of course it won't include everything the ST galaxy has. It doesn't have everything that SW has either.
quote:
Darkstar, the author of that particular website has shown quite a significant bias towards Star Trek. Especially in his debates with Mike Wong on Stardestroyer.net. Dismissing someone on the sole ground of bias will not fly either. If you really want to refute a person, then how about looking at the actual arguments?


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 12:09 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
It's irrelvant given that we know that all Borg ships are outfitted with the same technology. A standard cube is far greater in size and power than a star destroyer. A tactical cube is smaller but far more powerful as it has enhanced weapons and shielding (including ablative hull armour) and the scout sphere's are smaller but still armed enough easily tackle high powered federation ships.



Outfitted with same tech =/= being equal.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101



A borg cube is 3km by 3km by 3km. A Star destroyer is less than 3km long. Never mind in both other dimensions.

Here's wookipedias page on the imperial II class destoyer.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Impe..._Star_Destroyer

Stats on the right say 1600m long

Here's the memory-alpha page on a borg cube.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Borg_cube

It states a borg cube is 28 cubic kms. Do the cube root of that and it's 3.03km



So the Borg Cube is bigger...cool? Bigger =/= more powerful.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101





See? You can't even be bothered to read facts to back up your own opinion. Never mind read those that disagree. SW has proton torpedos which rarely get used.


No, proton torpedoes are not "rarely used", where did you get this info from?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101







What do you mean "since when?". You do realise that ablative armour is actually a scientific fact. They use a version of it on the space shuttles now and it's what disipates the heat energy of re-entry.

Do you even know what ablative armour does? Doubt it. What it does is it absorbs energy and disintegrates at a controlled rate.

And ST still uses energy weapons because not all species use ablative armour (although for the purposes of a vs debate we can allow factions within a universe to share technology to fight an outide enemy similar to what the Federation and Borg did to fight species 8472)



Ok...how does it being a scientific fact make it more powerful?

Ok...cool. Doesn't mean that it doesn't have a limit as to how much it can absorb.

So now we're allowed to share tech?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101


Speaking of species 8472. This species comes from an extremely dense fluidic space (their entire universe is liquid) and they can combine 8 single pilot small bioships to destroy entire planets. We're talking about ships about the size of the millenium falcon. SW has nothing to combat this species. Not to mention that they have an entire universe of numbers to call upon and we know from canon sources that thousands and thousands of them were pouring throught the rift from Borg space to fluidic space.





True, species 8472 is a significant threat.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101


You're out of your depth here clearly. Stop talking utter nonsense and admit when you're beaten.



nothing to respond to here, since it is a pointless, bashing and idiotic statement that does not offer any rebuttal or proof whatsoever.

Actually respond to my last post please.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 12:13 AM
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Robtard
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by doan_m
Hardly surprising, especially considering that said ships were particularly powerful for its time. Hell a few ships swinging the balance of powers is something that happens often in SW. Look at the Death Star. That ONE ship(battle station is more appropriate term) was more than enough to freak out the Rebellion considering the massive threat it posed to them.


This same super-weapon was destroyed by one ship via a single shot.

To further the tech Vs tech debate-comparison, SW had to build a moon-sized ship to destroy a planet. ST can destroy an entire solar system with one trilithium torpedo.


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Last edited by Robtard on Nov 11th, 2009 at 12:41 AM

Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 12:39 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard

ST can destroy an entire solar system with one trilithium torpedo.


So can SW's Sun Crusher.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 12:41 AM
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doan_m
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
This same super-weapon was destroyed by one ship via a single shot.

By exploiting a weakness that took a crapload of espionage to filter out that cost oh so many spies IIRC. A design flaw also remedied in the design plan of the second death star.


quote:

To further the tech Vs tech debate-comparison, SW had to build a moon-sized ship to destroy a planet.

It does destroy the planet, but it completely vapes the planet with direct energy whilest also overcoming the planetary shields at the same time.

quote:
ST can destroy an entire solar system with one trilithium torpedo.
Which works exclusively for the sun by screwing over the reactions that take place inside it. A formidable weapon no doubt but i seriously doubt that it could be applied to much else.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 12:52 AM
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Correct Doan m

and SW has it too in the form of the Sun Crusher...


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 12:54 AM
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Robtard
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So can SW's Sun Crusher.


EU gay-ness.

Also, that will make a formidable weapon once the Borg assimilate it.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 12:55 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by doan_m
By exploiting a weakness that took a crapload of espionage to filter out that cost oh so many spies IIRC. A design flaw also remedied in the design plan of the second death star.

It does destroy the planet, but it completely vapes the planet with direct energy whilest also overcoming the planetary shields at the same time.

Which works exclusively for the sun by screwing over the reactions that take place inside it. A formidable weapon no doubt but i seriously doubt that it could be applied to much else.


And?

When the Deathstar fired on Alderan(?), it didn't destroy the planet, despite the planet going boom? Okay.

Tech Vs Tech point still stands.


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Last edited by Robtard on Nov 11th, 2009 at 01:03 AM

Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 01:00 AM
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doan_m
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
[B]And?

When the Deathstar fired on Alderan(?), it didn't destroy the planet, despite the planet going boom? Okay.



Err..... What?


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 01:04 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
And?

When the Deathstar fired on Alderan(?), it didn't destroy the planet, despite the planet going boom? Okay.

Tech Vs Tech point still stands.


...what?


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 01:06 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by doan_m
Err..... What?



In A New Hope, Deathstar shoots at a planet; planet goes boom. Obi says he felt a great disturbance in the Force, due to the billions of deaths.

Edit: I thought you said "it doesn't destroy", so nevermind.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 01:08 AM
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doan_m
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
In A New Hope, Deathstar shoots at a planet; planet goes boom. Obi says he felt a great disturbance in the Force, due to the billions of deaths.

This refutes Alderaan being blown up by the Death Star? How?


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 01:10 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by doan_m
This refutes Alderaan being blown up by the Death Star? How?


Miss-read you, see above.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 01:11 AM
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jaden101
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quote:
About as "pointless" as any versus debates in general.


Are you two actually this dense? It's not a difficult point to get. You used a site to claim that Star Wars beats Star Trek despite the fact

that it only takes into account the federation and not the countless other species of far greater power and technology than the federation. And you do this in a thread which is supposed to be about the whole of SW vs the whole of ST.

quote:
And what makes the Jem Hadar so special?


Already described them...Clearly not paying attention...Again.

quote:
I canít see how that works. Even within just the context of this sentence, all that he is doing is just giving a comparison of firepower between a deathstar and a thousand ISDs. Nothing to implicate about the actual fleet size itself.


The you're an idiot. His quote is something like "The entire empire fleet couldn't destroy a planet...It would take 1000 Star Destroyers..." Clearly showing the empire DON'T HAVE 1000 star destroyers.

quote:
Hardly surprising, especially considering that said ships were particularly powerful for its time. Hell a few ships swinging the balance of powers is something that happens often in SW. Look at the Death Star. That ONE ship(battle station is more appropriate term) was more than enough to freak out the Rebellion considering the massive threat it posed to them.


Well they were around 100 year old ships at the time and comparable to the imperial II destroyers were actually really weak. Which in turn, compared with a borg cube are also really weak.

quote:
Outnumbered if you are only counting the lowest possible canon of 25,000. And also if you are discounting most other ships that the GE possesses.


So what's the highest possible canon? Is it hundreds of billions or stardestroyers? No. Hence they're outnumbered by a single species...One of many in the ST universe.

quote:
Clone Troopers are also bred for war.


Can clone troopers be engineered in 3 days to full fighting ability? No
Do clone troopers have biological cloaking devices in their DNA? No
Can clone troopers fight around the clock with no need for rest, sleep, food or water? No
Are clone troopers significantly more powerful than humans? No


quote:
Thatís fine and all. But what feats have they demonstrated on the battlefield? And what would all this mean exactly in the face of an enemy possessing superior firepower?


Your point would be valid if Clone Troopers of Storm Troopers had superior firepower...They don't. And if you can't see what benefit a personal biological cloaking device has then you're clearly scraping the barrell for excuses to not admit defeat.

quote:


I'm well aware of the "Base Delta Zero". It's a pity it takes fleets of Star Destoyers days to accomplish it.

On the other hand. 9 small species 8472 bioships can do this



In a matter of seconds.

And there's an entire universe full of them.


quote:
As per the SW:ICS(Episode 2) an acclamator Troop Transport is capable of 3500G. As per the Star Trek Technical Manual 1000G.


So the ST manual is a single figure for all ships? That'd be no. If you want canon use your eyes. It clearly obvious that ST ships are vastly more manueverable and have a far longer range.

quote:
And just about how standardized is the transwarp drive that it would be sufficiently distributed throughout the fleet to make it sufficient enough to engage with Star Wars?


This you trying to make it Star Fleet only again?...Fail

quote:
Meh. Iím good. Feel free to bring the direct quotes here though. You are after all, the one asserting the evidence so naturally the burden of proof lies on you.


The burden of proof actually lies on you. You're the one who made the following claim

quote:
Star Wars of course. Considering its size, military and technology first. Generally speaking but unless asked, I won't go into specifics.


So far you've utterly failed to back that claim up.

quote:
In space? Useless really since by the time you even fire your weapons you are going to give away your position.


Do you have any clue what phased weapons are? They phase out of normal space/time and so bypass any kind of shielding or armour. Does SW have anything to counter this at all?

quote:
They donít really do well when in the face of firepower magnitudes greater than their own. Or for that matter physical projectiles.


Actually they do. Clearly many species have had weapons that have killed Borg drones and ships. Power magnitude has nothing to do with it though. It's frequency. Which is what the Borg adapt to.

How many SW ships use physical projectiles? And before you say proton torpedos, the Borg easily adapted to photon torpedos and would do so to proton torpedos just as easily. The only time "physical projectiles" were effective is when Picard used an old tommy gun on the holodeck with the safety protocols switched off. Hardly applicable is it?

quote:
Hardly representative of the norm. There is an instance in A New Hope where you see chunks of ferrocrete being blasted out of the walls by Han Solos Blaster.


And is his one shot representative of the norm? No. It would be good if you could manage not to contradict yourself.

quote:
Its got a lot of material to draw on sure. But that doesnít mean that the volume establishes as to who is superior. I.e. There is a crapload of Star Trek material out there but this certainly doesnít put them above the level of the Culture-verse. Or the Hyperion verse for that matter.


Well given that your knowledge of the ST universe is quite clearly as close to zero as possible then you're not really in the best position to judge are you?

quote:
Which works against shielded objects?


The Borg's do. As does the Breen and several other species.


quote:
Darkstar, the author of that particular website has shown quite a significant bias towards Star Trek. Especially in his debates with Mike Wong on Stardestroyer.net. Dismissing someone on the sole ground of bias will not fly either. If you really want to refute a person, then how about looking at the actual arguments?


Bit difficult to do that given that you haven't put forward any arguments.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 06:39 PM
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I'll respond to SOME of these that aren't about something that can't be defined just by looking at this close, although they weren't directed at me...

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
Are you two actually this dense? It's not a difficult point to get. You used a site to claim that Star Wars beats Star Trek despite the fact

that it only takes into account the federation and not the countless other species of far greater power and technology than the federation. And you do this in a thread which is supposed to be about the whole of SW vs the whole of ST.



Wrong. Stardestroyer.net does delve into other species, ESPECIALLY the Borg, and talks about how the Borg CANNOT simply assimilate SW tech.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101



The you're an idiot. His quote is something like "The entire empire fleet couldn't destroy a planet...It would take 1000 Star Destroyers..." Clearly showing the empire DON'T HAVE 1000 star destroyers.



wtf? If this army commander says "it would take an army to defeat them" does that mean that they don't have an army? No! It was stated that the Empire has 25,000 star destroyers, and "1000" may very well be a figure of speech.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101




So what's the highest possible canon? Is it hundreds of billions or stardestroyers? No. Hence they're outnumbered by a single species...One of many in the ST universe.




1. Numbers do not win battles.
2. It is not clear what "vessels" means for the Borg.
3. Most ST species don't have those numbers.
4. CIS has a quadrillion battle droids.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101





Can clone troopers be engineered in 3 days to full fighting ability? No
Do clone troopers have biological cloaking devices in their DNA? No
Can clone troopers fight around the clock with no need for rest, sleep, food or water? No
Are clone troopers significantly more powerful than humans? No





This is one species that you are talking about. What happened to all of the others? Sure they're powerful, but not powerful enough to single handedly solo Star Wars, so you aren't exactly proving a point here.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101



Your point would be valid if Clone Troopers of Storm Troopers had superior firepower...They don't. And if you can't see what benefit a personal biological cloaking device has then you're clearly scraping the barrell for excuses to not admit defeat.



How many species actually have biological cloaking devices?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101




I'm well aware of the "Base Delta Zero". It's a pity it takes fleets of Star Destoyers days to accomplish it.

On the other hand. 9 small species 8472 bioships can do this



In a matter of seconds.

And there's an entire universe full of them.


And the Death Star can do it. So can the Galaxy Gun. And the Sun Crusher can destroy an entire Solar System. Even better, Centerpoint station can destroy and even MOVE planets/stars from lightyears away. What stops SW from simply destroying all of ST's capital planets in a matter of days with Centerpoint?

"an entire universe?"

more coming later...


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 06:51 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101





So the ST manual is a single figure for all ships? That'd be no. If you want canon use your eyes. It clearly obvious that ST ships are vastly more manueverable and have a far longer range.


http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire...iveMinutes.html

As the title implies, it's a quick read and shows just how superior SW ships are.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101






Do you have any clue what phased weapons are? They phase out of normal space/time and so bypass any kind of shielding or armour. Does SW have anything to counter this at all?



Actually they do. Clearly many species have had weapons that have killed Borg drones and ships. Power magnitude has nothing to do with it though. It's frequency. Which is what the Borg adapt to.

How many SW ships use physical projectiles? And before you say proton torpedos, the Borg easily adapted to photon torpedos and would do so to proton torpedos just as easily. The only time "physical projectiles" were effective is when Picard used an old tommy gun on the holodeck with the safety protocols switched off. Hardly applicable is it?


First, prove that phased weapons can go through ANY shielding/armor and that it cannot be scrambled/messed up by electronics and stuff like that. Also, how often does ST actually use this?

And please explain just how resistant the Borg are to energy weapons; are they completely immune?





An Aclamator troop TRANSPORT has a shield heat dissipation of 70 trillion GW.

The Enterprise D's main phasers have the energy output of 3.6 GW.

How exactly will the Enterprise harm even a mere TROOP TRANSPORT?

Aclamator reactor power = 200 trillion GW
Enterprise D reactor power = 4 billion GW

In Star Wars, galactic travel takes a matter of hours.
It took the Voyager 7 years to cross one quadrant of the galaxy.

Not to mention that Star Wars has the industrial power of millions of worlds to draw upon.


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Last edited by Hewhoknowsall on Nov 11th, 2009 at 07:08 PM

Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 06:55 PM
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(triple post, sorry)


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 06:57 PM
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jaden101
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quote:
Outfitted with same tech =/= being equal.


Do you just read the 1st sentence and then stop? Cause if you read the rest you'd see I clearly explained the differences.


quote:
So the Borg Cube is bigger...cool? Bigger =/= more powerful.


Yeah. Onscreen evidence does that. The borg ships can self repair in extremely short periods of time. They have adaptive shielding and, in some cases, ablative armour. They are vastly more powerful than Star Destroyers.

A single borg cube can eliminate all life from a planet in very little time. Literally scooping entire cities off the face of the planet. It can remain fully operational even if 78% of it were totally destroyed. It can then regenerate (as i previously mentioned)

quote:
No, proton torpedoes are not "rarely used", where did you get this info from?


From, and get how radical a move this is, actually watching the films.

quote:
Ok...how does it being a scientific fact make it more powerful?


You really aren't the sharpest tool in the box are you. I was explaining what it was seeing as you quite clearly didn't have the foggiest.

quote:
True, species 8472 is a significant threat.


The most sensible thing you've said yet. A species who's biology is resistant to almost all forms of biological or chemical weaponry. A biological based technology that when they went to war with the Borg were able to destroy 8 Borg planets in a single battle.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 07:06 PM
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Hewhoknowsall
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire...iveMinutes.html


An Aclamator troop TRANSPORT has a shield heat dissipation of 70 trillion GW.
The Enterprise D's main phasers have the energy output of 3.6 GW.

How exactly will the Enterprise harm even a mere TROOP TRANSPORT?

Aclamator reactor power = 200 trillion GW
Enterprise D reactor power = 4 billion GW

In Star Wars, galactic travel takes a matter of hours.
It took the Voyager 7 years to cross one quadrant of the galaxy.

Not to mention that Star Wars has the industrial power of millions of worlds to draw upon.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 07:09 PM
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jaden101
It's Fat Albert

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Location: North Philadelphia

quote:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire...iveMinutes.html As the title implies, it's a quick read and shows just how superior SW ships are.


Compared to a single ship that ST has...The enterprise-D.

Not exactly a valid argument is it?

quote:
Wrong. Stardestroyer.net does delve into other species, ESPECIALLY the Borg, and talks about how the Borg CANNOT simply assimilate SW tech.

Based on what? Becaus the guy doesn't want the Borg to be able to do it. They've assimilated every technology bar a single species. Species 8472...An organic based technology. Nothing SW has is invulnerable to the Borg assimilation process.


quote:
First, prove that phased weapons can go through ANY shielding/armor and that it cannot be scrambled/messed up by electronics and stuff like that. Also, how often does ST actually use this?


They're called Chroniton torpedoes. You cant "mess something up" that doesn't exist in the same time as you.



quote:
And please explain just how resistant the Borg are to energy weapons; are they completely immune?


The Borg will take damage to vessels and within 2 or 3 shots from any energy or explosive weapon, they will have completely adapted so that those weapons no longer have any effect at all.

quote:
An Aclamator troop TRANSPORT has a shield heat dissipation of 70 trillion GW. The Enterprise D's main phasers have the energy output of 3.6 GW. How exactly will the Enterprise harm even a mere TROOP TRANSPORT?


I love it when people quote other people from another thread that i've already disproven. It's great.

Besides, how many times are you going to keep using the enterprise-D as somehow being the pinnacle of what the ST universe has to offer. It's a ****ing science vessel. Not a battle ship.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 07:15 PM
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