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Star Wars vs Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Battlestar Galactica
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
Compared to a single ship that ST has...The enterprise-D.

Not exactly a valid argument is it?




You're comparing a ship from SW to a ship from ST...and the SW ship is FAR FAR superior. Can you name a ship from SW that would compete with even an Aclamator troop transport? I'm pretty sure that there are that can, but I'm just wondering how far up (as in ship class) you'll have to go beyond a "troop transport" to find one.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101



Based on what? Becaus the guy doesn't want the Borg to be able to do it. They've assimilated every technology bar a single species. Species 8472...An organic based technology. Nothing SW has is invulnerable to the Borg assimilation process.



http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire...hs_ST.html#Borg

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101





They're called Chroniton torpedoes. You cant "mess something up" that doesn't exist in the same time as you.



And how often does ST use it?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101





The Borg will take damage to vessels and within 2 or 3 shots from any energy or explosive weapon, they will have completely adapted so that those weapons no longer have any effect at all.



I love it when people quote other people from another thread that i've already disproven. It's great.

Besides, how many times are you going to keep using the enterprise-D as somehow being the pinnacle of what the ST universe has to offer. It's a ****ing science vessel. Not a battle ship.


See above.

Can you please disprove it then? You shouldn't just expect people to read through 23 pages of stuff.

Neither is the Aclamator TROOP TRANSPORT. And yet it isn't just vastly more powerful: it's FAR FAR FAR more powerful. 70 trillion GW shield dissipation vs 3311 GW???? The difference in that is ridiculous to the extreme.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 07:32 PM
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quote:
You're comparing a ship from SW to a ship from ST...and the SW ship is FAR FAR superior. Can you name a ship from SW that would compete with even an Aclamator troop transport? I'm pretty sure that there are that can, but I'm just wondering how far up (as in ship class) you'll have to go beyond a "troop transport" to find one.


I'm not the one comparing one of the most powerful war ships that SW has to offer to a science and exploration vessel from ST that is nowhere near the peak that ST has to offer. Your link is trying that trick. An exceptionally weak argument.

It's akin to me comparing a species 8472 bioship to an X-wing and passing it off as a valid debate that encompasses the best both universes have to offer.

quote:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire...hs_ST.html#Borg


Wow...What an exceptionally stupid argument. The Borg can't assimilate a Dyson's sphere...because they haven't came acorss it yet?

That's like me saying Sidious can't kill an Ewok because he hasn't seen one.

As for saying the Hirogen can't be assimilated because they haven't been completely assimilated. What a nonsense argument. Many thousands of Hirogen have been assimilated into the collective and you see Hirogen/Borg drones regularly in Voyager. There were many on unimatrix zero alone.

So yeah, your link is complete nonsense.



quote:
And how often does ST use it?


Is that even relevant? They have it so it can be used in a hypothetical battle.

quote:
See above. Can you please disprove it then? You shouldn't just expect people to read through 23 pages of stuff. Neither is the Aclamator TROOP TRANSPORT. And yet it isn't just vastly more powerful: it's FAR FAR FAR more powerful. 70 trillion GW shield dissipation vs 3311 GW???? The difference in that is ridiculous to the extreme.


You're not even reading what i'm posting on this thread and it's only 3 pages in. I won't do your leg work for you. Stop being so lazy and do some reading.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 08:06 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
I'm not the one comparing one of the most powerful war ships that SW has to offer to a science and exploration vessel from ST that is nowhere near the peak that ST has to offer. Your link is trying that trick. An exceptionally weak argument.


One of the most powerful war ships that SW has to offer???

More like one of the WEAKEST transport ships that SW has to offer.

Obviously you don't get the fact that the Acalamator TROOP TRANSPORT is not only just a mere troop transport, but is also old and outdated: by the Legacy of the Force series, Caedus considered Republic Era ships (like the Aclamator) to be "ancient hardware".

So actually he's putting the Enterprise against one of the weaker TRANSPORT ships...and the Aclamator is FAR FAR more powerful.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101


It's akin to me comparing a species 8472 bioship to an X-wing and passing it off as a valid debate that encompasses the best both universes have to offer.



See above.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101




Wow...What an exceptionally stupid argument. The Borg can't assimilate a Dyson's sphere...because they haven't came acorss it yet?

That's like me saying Sidious can't kill an Ewok because he hasn't seen one.


That's not what the site said.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101






Is that even relevant? They have it so it can be used in a hypothetical battle.



You're not even reading what i'm posting on this thread and it's only 3 pages in. I won't do your leg work for you. Stop being so lazy and do some reading.


You fail.

You don't realize it, do you? Stop trying to bash me and make yourself look good by doing that.

The point is that an outdated troop transport is thousand/millions of times + more powerful than the Enterprise. Sure; the Enterprise isn't a battle geared ship, but neither is the Aclamator. And even if the Aclamator were a batte geared ship, the fact that it's MILLIONS of times stronger is still overwhelming. An armed exploration vessel would not be millions of times weaker than a war ship if technology were equal/anywhere near on par. A car is not millions of times less durable than a tank. Now a bronze/stone age wagon IS probably at/close to millions of times less durable than a battleship.


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Last edited by Hewhoknowsall on Nov 11th, 2009 at 08:15 PM

Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 08:13 PM
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jaden101
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quote:
That's not what the site said.


Yes, it clearly is.



quote:
You fail. You don't realize it, do you? Stop trying to bash me and make yourself look good by doing that. The point is that an outdated troop transport is thousand/millions of times + more powerful than the Enterprise. Sure; the Enterprise isn't a battle geared ship, but neither is the Aclamator. And even if the Aclamator were a batte geared ship, the fact that it's MILLIONS of times stronger is still overwhelming. An armed exploration vessel would not be millions of times weaker than a war ship if technology were equal/anywhere near on par. A car is not millions of times less durable than a tank. Now a bronze/stone age wagon IS probably at/close to millions of times less durable than a battleship.


The acclamator class is actually an assault ship. So to claim it's solely a transport ship and not a war ship is, quite frankly, lying. Where as the Enterprise-D is a science vessell with some low powered weaponry and defences.

To put any vessel from Star Wars against something from the upper regions of power from Star Trek and the SW ship gets whupped.

We'll go back to my points.

Doesn't SW have any answer to the following weapons.

Chroniton torpedos (as previously mentioned)
Transphasic torpedos (which work similar to above mentioned)
Phased Polaron Cannon.
Polaron Torpedos
Thaleron Radiation superweapon (On the Reman Scimitar)
Phased Plasma Torpedos
Isokinetic Cannon
Multikinetic neutronic mines of some 5 million isoton yield (a 54 isoton weapon can destroy a planet). The mine itself can affect entire star systems.
The Dreadnaught missle. A fully independant AI, warp 9 capable WMD capable of destroying a planet.
Q-guns. Weapons which have the outward appearance of an American civil war rifle but in reality actually fire Supernovae level explosions.

Come back to me when you have an answer for any of those.

Or even for the fact that all ST ships would need to do is transport a high powered torpedo straight onto the bridge of every SW ship.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 09:05 PM
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Chroniton torpedos - doesn't have an answer as far as I know
Transphasic torpedos - see above
Phased Polaron Cannon - what's so special about it?
Polaron torpedos - what's so special about it?
Heck, most of these are simply very powerful (by ST standards) weapons, or maybe not...it would've been nice if you were to describe what's so special about each of them.

As for those that do matter that I haven't covered:

planet/star/solar system killers - SW has them too

Q-guns - Since the Q race is omnipotent/near omnipotent, they aren't allowed, so therefore we shouldn't allow their technology either.

Also: I just remembered that it's possible for the extremely advanced ST factions, such as the 31st century ones, may surpass SW in tech, however the majority of what is actually reguarly shown is still not at SW level.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 09:12 PM
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quote:
Phased Polaron Cannon - what's so special about it?
Polaron torpedos - what's so special about it?


Both render shields useless by bypassing them.


quote:
Heck, most of these are simply very powerful (by ST standards) weapons, or maybe not...it would've been nice if you were to describe what's so special about each of them.


Some aren't so much powerful in terms of yield but in terms of technology they can circumvent SW tech. (They also show that ST species have a far more advanced grasp of physics as they are displaying technology that can go outside of space and time with regards to temporal and phasing weapons....Something SW, to my knowledge hasn't even briefly flirted with...Perhaps you can show something to the contrary)

I did, however, figure that expecting you to do even a tiny bit of searching regarding those weapons would be futile though.

Multi kinetic nuetronic mines. A single weapon that can destroy on a scale that nothing in SW has come close to. Same with the Q-guns, the Omega particle and several other weapons.

quote:
Also: I just remembered that it's possible for the extremely advanced ST factions, such as the 31st century ones, may surpass SW in tech, however the majority of what is actually reguarly shown is still not at SW level.


This is a completely irrelevant point. We're not dismissing weapons just because they aren't featured often. That's not how these debates work. If it was then you could say that you only see the death star destroying 1 planet and so you can't count it as a regular weapon.

So again, for the 3rd time, how often it's used cannot be used as a reason to discount it.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 09:34 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101


Multi kinetic nuetronic mines. A single weapon that can destroy on a scale that nothing in SW has come close to. Same with the Q-guns, the Omega particle and several other weapons.





According to your post, it can "affect" (to what degree?) solar systems. SW has this too however in the form of the Sun Crusher, which can destroy a solar system.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 09:36 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
According to your post, it can "affect" (to what degree?) solar systems. SW has this too however in the form of the Sun Crusher, which can destroy a solar system.


It's blast wave can destroy planets up to 5 light years away.

Given that compared to our solar system, Pluto is 5.46 light hours from earth that gives an area some 8000 times larger than our solar system. More than the distance between Earth and the nearest star that is not our own sun.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 09:45 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
It's blast wave can destroy planets up to 5 light years away.

Given that compared to our solar system, Pluto is 5.46 light hours from earth that gives an area some 8000 times larger than our solar system. More than the distance between Earth and the nearest star that is not our own sun.


Centerpoint station can destroy and even MOVE planets/stars from hyperspace to the point in which the Confederation when they had the weapon (and it was on Corellia) was stated to be capable of destroying Coruscant if it wanted to, and I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) they would've have it not been destroyed.

Although I don't know the exact distance between the two worlds, they are located in different sectors (which consisted of, in Corellian Sector's case, 24 systems), which can assume that they were quite a bit more than 5 light years apart.




The Galaxy Gun could launch planet destroying shells into hyperspace, so it could basically strike at any of ST's planets from thousands of light years away.



Using the Star Forge, SW could theoretically use the Star Forge's basically unlimited production capabilities to produce entire fleets of these superweapons, and then use them to blow up every major world belonging to the ST races.


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Last edited by Hewhoknowsall on Nov 11th, 2009 at 10:08 PM

Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 10:03 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Centerpoint station can destroy and even MOVE planets/stars from hyperspace to the point in which the Confederation when they had the weapon (and it was on Corellia) was stated to be capable of destroying Coruscant if it wanted to, and I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) they would've have it not been destroyed.

Although I don't know the exact distance between the two worlds, they are located in different sectors (which consisted of, in Corellian Sector's case, 24 systems), which can assume that they were quite a bit more than 5 light years apart.

The Galaxy Gun could launch planet destroying shells into hyperspace, so it could basically strike at any of ST's planets from thousands of light years away.

Using the Star Forge, SW could theoretically use the Star Forge's basically unlimited production capabilities to produce entire fleets of these superweapons, and then use them to blow up every major world belonging to the ST races.


The Borg could utilse Transwarp to deliver MKNM to every part of the galaxy.

Reading up on the Sun Crusher, though. It can only fire it's resonance torpedos at sublight speed can it not? (according to it's wookipedia page anyway)

It also seems to work on the same principle as the trilithium torpedo in that it destabilises a sun and causes it to go supernova. I'm sure doan_m described that weapon as only useful in limited scale.

Granted, the star forge is a useful tool. It would need to be going somewhat to take a fleet from a few thousand to hundreds of billions in a short space of time to equal the Borg fleet though.

I also believe that centerpoint station was never designed as a weapon. Was it even ever used to destroy planets or suns? I know it was used on a few fleets of ships...Hardly in the same level of power as destroying 5 lightyears of space, though.

The Galaxy gun could be useful though, although it's projectile weapon doesn't impact planets at hyperspace velocity. It just enters the local space and then uses AI to guide it to it's target. Giving a chance for it to be destroyed.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 10:28 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
The Borg could utilse Transwarp to deliver MKNM to every part of the galaxy.


Right, but the vessels that they use could be destroyed.

Also, please explain exactly how fast Transwarp can go.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101

Reading up on the Sun Crusher, though. It can only fire it's resonance torpedos at sublight speed can it not? (according to it's wookipedia page anyway)


I believe that's true, but it can still destroy solar systems, which is impressive to say the least.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101


It also seems to work on the same principle as the trilithium torpedo in that it destabilises a sun and causes it to go supernova. I'm sure doan_m described that weapon as only useful in limited scale.


If it's very useful, then...well, it's very useful.

If it's not very useful, then that means that the trilithium torpedo isn't either.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101


Granted, the star forge is a useful tool. It would need to be going somewhat to take a fleet from a few thousand to hundreds of billions in a short space of time to equal the Borg fleet though.


Again, define "vessels". And no, it wouldn't take hundreds of billions of Galaxy Guns to equal hundreds of billions of borg cubes because galaxy gun >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> borg cube.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101

I also believe that centerpoint station was never designed as a weapon. Was it even ever used to destroy planets or suns? I know it was used on a few fleets of ships...Hardly in the same level of power as destroying 5 lightyears of space, though.

The Galaxy gun could be useful though, although it's projectile weapon doesn't impact planets at hyperspace velocity. It just enters the local space and then uses AI to guide it to it's target. Giving a chance for it to be destroyed.


I don't remember it actually destroying a planet, however that dude that was apparently in charge (or at least highly ranked/infuential) in the Confederation considered (and, I believe, might have actually tried...I have Star Wars: Legacy of the Force Fury, but don't want to get it out just now) destroying Coruscant, so this means that it is capable of doing so.

Also, by moving a planet you could very well destroy it, aka by moving it into a star/a black hole.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101


The Galaxy gun could be useful though, although it's projectile weapon doesn't impact planets at hyperspace velocity. It just enters the local space and then uses AI to guide it to it's target. Giving a chance for it to be destroyed.


Wookiepedia says that even Kuat V-200 ion cannons, which according to Wookiepedia were supposedly able to penetrate any known shields, were unable to penetrate the projectile, showing that the projectile wasn't exactly unprotected.


Overall, SW could simply use the Galaxy Gun/Centerpoint Station to destroy all of the capital planets/major planets of Star Trek.


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Last edited by Hewhoknowsall on Nov 11th, 2009 at 11:00 PM

Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 10:56 PM
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quote:
Right, but the vessels that they use could be destroyed.

Also, please explain exactly how fast Transwarp can go.


Destroyed by?

Hyperdrive can allow a ship to cross the entire 100,000 light year galaxy (both the SW and ST galaxies are the same size) in a matter of a few weeks to a couple of months depending on the power...Transwarp can deploy a ship across the galaxy in a few minutes.


quote:
I believe that's true, but it can still destroy solar systems, which is impressive to say the least.


Indeed. I'd like to see them put some of these superweapons into the film/animated medium.

quote:
If it's very useful, then...well, it's very useful. If it's not very useful, then that means that the trilithium torpedo isn't either.


Hence the reason i never really listen the trilithium torpedo until comparing it to the sun crusher's usefulness. It can only destroy the area surrounding a star. The vast majority of space doesn't fall into solar systems surrounding space and so the only way either weapon would be effective against fleets of enemy ships is if those ships were in solar systems surrounding planets.



quote:
Again, define "vessels". And no, it wouldn't take hundreds of billions of Galaxy Guns to equal hundreds of billions of borg cubes because galaxy gun >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> borg cube.


The galaxy gun would be pretty useless against a Borg cube though as the calculations hit a target travelling at transwarp speeds are clearly outwith SW tech abilities (given they have nothing that even approaches that level of speed)

So 1 Borg cube could probably destroy many galaxy guns without being taken out.

So blowing up planets is all well and good. It doesn't effect the hundreds of billions of Borg ships. The MKNM, on the other hand, can be deployed anywhere as it doesn't rely on targetting stars or planets.




quote:
Wookiepedia says that even Kuat V-200 ion cannons, which according to Wookiepedia were supposedly able to penetrate any known shields, were unable to penetrate the projectile, showing that the projectile wasn't exactly unprotected.


Again...Phased weapons...impossible to stop as they can bypass shields or armour by going outside it's space/time...entering the target and them re-enter the space/time inside the target.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 11:07 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
Destroyed by?


The vessels that carry these torpedos (or do the torpedos themselves move at FTL speeds?) can be destroyed.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101


Hyperdrive can allow a ship to cross the entire 100,000 light year galaxy (both the SW and ST galaxies are the same size) in a matter of a few weeks to a couple of months depending on the power...Transwarp can deploy a ship across the galaxy in a few minutes.




According to/implied by some sources that I checked (Memory Alpha, Stardestroyer.net), it seems to have a limited time/can only be sustained for a short amount of time.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101



Indeed. I'd like to see them put some of these superweapons into the film/animated medium.



Hence the reason i never really listen the trilithium torpedo until comparing it to the sun crusher's usefulness. It can only destroy the area surrounding a star. The vast majority of space doesn't fall into solar systems surrounding space and so the only way either weapon would be effective against fleets of enemy ships is if those ships were in solar systems surrounding planets.





The galaxy gun would be pretty useless against a Borg cube though as the calculations hit a target travelling at transwarp speeds are clearly outwith SW tech abilities (given they have nothing that even approaches that level of speed)

So 1 Borg cube could probably destroy many galaxy guns without being taken out.

So blowing up planets is all well and good. It doesn't effect the hundreds of billions of Borg ships. The MKNM, on the other hand, can be deployed anywhere as it doesn't rely on targetting stars or planets.






Again...Phased weapons...impossible to stop as they can bypass shields or armour by going outside it's space/time...entering the target and them re-enter the space/time inside the target.


Yeah, that would be cool

Well, that's debatable.

Unlikely that a borg cube could outmatch a Galaxy Gun in direct combat.

So why does ST still use armor? Wouldn't phased weapons render them obsolete?

Anyway, this is the plan:

Use Star Forge to build lots of Galaxy Guns.

Use the Galaxy Guns to shoot at each of the major planets.

Are phased weapons common/cheap enough to be deployed at every major planet? If not, then just use Centerpoint.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 11:19 PM
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edit: please diregard the 3rd line of mine, I'm misread wookiepedia.


and in the last line, I mean if SO, not if not.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 11:40 PM
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jaden101
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quote:
The vessels that carry these torpedos (or do the torpedos themselves move at FTL speeds?) can be destroyed.


Almost all torpedos in ST can be fired at impulse or warp.

What's going to destroy the ships? Borg or Species 8472 ships, for example.


quote:
According to/implied by some sources that I checked (Memory Alpha, Stardestroyer.net), it seems to have a limited time/can only be sustained for a short amount of time.


It only needs to though. They deploy ships across the entire galaxy in a couple of minutes. Any longer and they'd be outside the galaxy and into open space. Which brings up something else regarding the enterprise-D travelling so fast it went out it's own galaxy and passed through 2 others before stopping and only took about a minute to do so...Or when a shuttle on Voyager hit warp 10 (which meant infinite speed meaning for a fraction of a second it was at all places in the universe at the same time)


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2009 11:57 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
Almost all torpedos in ST can be fired at impulse or warp.

What's going to destroy the ships? Borg or Species 8472 ships, for example.




It only needs to though. They deploy ships across the entire galaxy in a couple of minutes. Any longer and they'd be outside the galaxy and into open space. Which brings up something else regarding the enterprise-D travelling so fast it went out it's own galaxy and passed through 2 others before stopping and only took about a minute to do so...Or when a shuttle on Voyager hit warp 10 (which meant infinite speed meaning for a fraction of a second it was at all places in the universe at the same time)


K, but SW still has the advantage in that, if you were to have a battle of Superweapon, SW only has to destroy a few of ST's major worlds whereas SW's VASTLY larger amount of worlds means that ST will have to destroy a lot more worlds. Not to mention that SW has better ship weapons and such, so a conventional war would go to SW.


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Old Post Nov 12th, 2009 12:00 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
The vessels that carry these torpedos (or do the torpedos themselves move at FTL speeds?) can be destroyed.



According to/implied by some sources that I checked (Memory Alpha, Stardestroyer.net), it seems to have a limited time/can only be sustained for a short amount of time.

Yeah, that would be cool

Well, that's debatable.

Unlikely that a borg cube could outmatch a Galaxy Gun in direct combat.

So why does ST still use armor? Wouldn't phased weapons render them obsolete?

Anyway, this is the plan:

Use Star Forge to build lots of Galaxy Guns.

Use the Galaxy Guns to shoot at each of the major planets.

Are phased weapons common/cheap enough to be deployed at every major planet? If not, then just use Centerpoint.


Your point of are they cheap enough isn't really relevant given that many ST species don't use currency (The federation being one).

Common enough is, again, not applicable. They can simply replicate more and more (given that almost all species have replicators they could effectively replicate trillions of them every second for use in war)

I think we're delving into pedantry though. The debate is about who's tech is superior. Not who can hypothetically make more. Where does the debate stop? The star forge making more mini star forges? and other such non canon and completely speculative ideas?


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Old Post Nov 12th, 2009 12:03 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
Your point of are they cheap enough isn't really relevant given that many ST species don't use currency (The federation being one).

Common enough is, again, not applicable. They can simply replicate more and more (given that almost all species have replicators they could effectively replicate trillions of them every second for use in war)

I think we're delving into pedantry though. The debate is about who's tech is superior. Not who can hypothetically make more. Where does the debate stop? The star forge making more mini star forges? and other such non canon and completely speculative ideas?


By "cheap" I mean how fast you can build it/the resources required.

Are phased weapons very common or are they rather hard to make?

And replicators can't instantly just replicate ANYTHING in any quantity, otherwise Starfleet should've had a MUCH larger fleet.

The debate is about who would win in a war in Star Wars vs Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Battlestar Galactica, no omnipotents/near omnipotents are allowed. Having LOTR in was basically a joke, as they are a non factor, and now we're for some reason forgetting about Battlestar and just focusing on the big 2 sci fi universes because the debate between the two is very heated...


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Old Post Nov 12th, 2009 12:09 AM
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Hewhoknowsnothingofstartrek,

Here's a small list of ST weapons, since you're asking Jaden to constantly explain what they can do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ns_in_Star_Trek

The Scimitar with its cloak and Thalaron discharge could kill an entire SW fleet and the Deathstar, this is just one ship.


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Last edited by Robtard on Nov 12th, 2009 at 12:31 AM

Old Post Nov 12th, 2009 12:28 AM
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Not sure if anyone's brought this up. But going from the movies, those Stardestroyers miss a lot. While ST ships tend to hit their targets, but are countered/absorbed by shielding and or armour.


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Old Post Nov 12th, 2009 01:13 AM
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