Are you referring to if Luke using Battle Meld w/the NJO Council confronted Sidious?
Luke and the NJO Council would win in a stomp. Sidious as of ROTJ will have been out of practice with a saber, so he couldn't pull off that speed blitz feat from ROTS.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
Ok. So it appears that you wish for proof that Luke + the entire NJO Council > Sidious, which is obvious, since by this point in time Luke alone > ROTJ Sidious but here goes:
Luke was able to station himself so that even a supermassive black hole couldn't move him. Therefore, Sidious's TK wouldn't work on Luke. If Sidious tries Force lightning on any of them, the rest just blitz Sidious.
So Luke and the NJO Council could defeat Sidious with Force attacks alone, but, even if they somehow can't, in a saber fight ROTJ Sidious would lose badly to this team. ROTJ Sidious was out of practice in terms of lightsaber combat for quite a while, and he's facing a huge number of Jedi Masters, one of which is his superior, all using a Battle Meld. Luke back in TUF using Battle Meld with just Jaina and Jacen was moving so fast that it appeared as if he was wielding 20 lightsabers at once - take into account the fact that Luke is far stronger by this point in the SW mythos and that he's using Battle Meld with the entire NJO Council, and Luke and the Council easily beat Sidious.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
As we have talked about before: Caedus has NO EXCUSE for not being ready. He was told TWICE by Ben that Luke was right behind him. TWICE.
The term battle rage is interesting, considering that in Allies, Ben states he had never "seen his father fight this hard." That means, apparently, Luke had to have been holding something back against Caedus. Clearly not visible from the text in Inferno, but that is why we get more source materials. While it might have been canon previously to say Luke was going all out in that fight, we now have source material that casts doubt on that fact.
Luke turned down a chance to kill Caedus early in the fight(while Caedus was entangled in the Vong vine thingy) because Ben was already yelling about killing Caedus.
Caedus later states that he was only lived through that duel because Ben was there.
(not to mention BEN was the one who GAVE AWAY luke's ninja attack. Without the knowledge of WHAT was happening, I have serious misgivings that he would have realized what that snap-hiss meant fast enough to save his life at the beginning of that fight.)
Lost her footing after being driven straight back to the edge of cliff because Luke was DOMINATING her.
When I see ANYONE else reach out with the force and keep a ship from taking off, I'll admit ANYTHING Luke did in that book was weak. Yoda didn't even try, even though Dooku was still in the hanger when the danger to Kenobi and Anakin was passed.
Sidious didn't even try when the entire Alliance leadership was leaving the deathstar after killing Galan Marek.
Vader didn't try on Hoth, despite being in the room as the Falcon took off.
oh, and
go easy on my new friend Ben. He just doesn't understand how things work yet, and he was making the same observations as I did in the Caedus fight, just didn't put it as elegantly factually.
You mean where Jacen was under the impression he was hallucinating?
...Or where Caedus attempts to seek out the cloaked Luke through the Force and does not find any credible evidence of his presence?
...Or where Jacen identified the possibility that it could simply be a distraction concocted by Ben in order to summon a vibrodagger? Three separate occasions where Jacen doesn't observe any facts or evidence to conclude that Skywalker would somehow be there. This hardly constitutes valid preparation time.
"Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang."
^ Doesn't sound like a particularly courteous or generous way to start a duel.
You're right, it is interesting:
"Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his BATTLE RAGE -- only the sight of Ben slipping so far to the dark side." Inferno, Chapter 20, sixth paragraph (I'm using ze online text).
Sorry, I didn't quite make all of that out? Your words were garbled by the sound of you choking on your own desperation. Luke clearly had to fight Abeloth on a different level than his fight with Caedus, since Abeloth was a greater threat. It was desperation that drove Luke to fight this hard against Abeloth, not restraint. There's a difference: nothing suggests that Luke was restraining the use of his considerable skill against Caedus in combat.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: Nice try.
Interesting turn of events. We see further proof that Skywalker acknowledges that he hardly had this fight in hand (he seemed rather eager to end it due to the extent of his own injuries) and that he hardly chose not to kill Jacen, he fell as a result of his injured leg and surprise.
But the most damning part? Skywalker was attacked despite the fact that Jacen was still trapped by the tendrils. Whether or not Luke had ignored Ben and continued his assault is irrelevant; Caedus didn't have to be free in order to be dangerous to Luke. What's to say that he wouldn't have dropped the light fixture anyway?
Absolutely nothing, since Luke had warning from Ben and his own precognition to understand that the light fixture was about to be dropped and still couldn't avoid it.
:eyeroll:
Ben "gave it away" more than once, TJ, but Caedus didn't believe him because he couldn't sense Skywalker through the Force. In fact, Caedus identified two very good reasons for Ben to be lying about Luke's presence.
So she strikes at him and barely misses; he lunges and is driven back each time; and then he muses that he would also grow fatigued from this.
Ownage Meter? Zero.
Skywalker lunges forward, denying her the ability to correctly use her weapon to its maximum lethality; she gives ground, however, in order to gain some distance enough to use the lightwhip. Sounds an awful lot like Anakin and Obi-Wan's duel.
Ownage Meter? I'll give him three points for being clever enough to mitigate her ability to correctly use her weapon. But other than that, the narration says she's letting herself being forced back in an effort to maintain enough distance to use the lightwhip, not because he's in Badass mode.
She continues to give ground but blocks all of his strikes.
Ownage Meter? Zero.
Does the world "stalemate" suggest ownage on Luke's part? Grunts of exertion, you say?
Ownage Meter? Zero.
...And she loses her footing. No sign of superior skill or power here.
Ownage Meter? Zero.
That's not the point. The point is that if Luke is as powerful as you say he is (able to manipulate dovin basals and resist black holes without incident or effort), then he should be easily capable of immobilizing that shuttle.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: You both are terrible at arguing this, though...
Alright, let me get down to brass taX. I'm not going to do this in the haiku style, since i'm tired and you're bullshit. your breakdown of a self created scenario is bullshit, not proof, as shown before, quite obviously. He doesn't have to be alone, either.
you forget ROTJ Sidious also has vader, boba fett, Old Mara Jade, FOTJ mara jade, and all of his imperial guards, who are pretty damn epic by themselves. We're not talking everyone vs just sidious. I'm just saying, if you get to magically transport your infallible team into sidious's throne room somehow where they all gank him, I get to teleport sidious's team in.
Also, who says sidious has to lightning one of them? He could lightning all of them. He had a force storm that ravaged planet's surfaces for christ's sake. One cast of that and we've got a bunch of toasted jedi.
Says who? Saber skills might not eb with time, especially with a sith as advanced as sidious. He obviously hadn't whipped out the old saber since before 25-year-old anakin was a little boy, at least not onscreen and he blitzed every jedi except mace, and then proceded to toy with mace completely, then got up and fought yoda in the same god damn night. How do you think he's going to fare against Luke's pups?
so somehow, the title of jedi master means something, and somehow they all get there alive and unharmed through whatever security/troops guard the emperor. go on... I'm sorry, did I hear someone say "mace windu did the exact same thing only better and without meld?" cause he did. How do you know all the NJO can perform mind meld at once? hmmmmm??? is there some point where they do this?
Also, it's an ancient practice... why doesn't sidious do it with his home dogs if its so great?
Alright, so wait, what's the official scenario your going with? how do luke and company get there?
EDIT: also, meld doesn't make you hit faster, it makes more than one jedi move as one being, with perfect team work.
Also, if you so chose to reply to my post with more bullshit, please copy/paste your reply to the appropriate thread. We would not want to hijack this thread.
Based on the Lumiya v Luke duels discussed in this thread, it sure sounds like Lumiya is probably better than Sidious, since Luke is apparently not able to best Lumiya until "she loses her footing."
So is that the intention of the authors and George Lucas? To show that Lumiya was actually more powerful than Sidious? Or is it merely to show that Luke Skywalker may be extremely powerful, but NOT INVINCIBLE. I think the people are reading too much into the duels with Lumiya and giving her way too much credit....
In the first duel, Luke was distracted at one point by Mara's troubles against Alema. That's because of attachment, which Yoda warns against. That's hardly a reason to devalue Luke's power; it is more to criticize his decision to take a wife.
I'm not saying that Lumiya is weak, not by any means, but the way the texts (Sacrifice, and the other LOTF books) are being interpreted here, you make it sound like Lumiya is on par with Luke. So if Luke > Sidious, as a ton of folks believe, then Lumiya > Sidious?
To the Lumiya lovers, please clarify your thoughts on her power.
Last edited by SWFan4Life on Jun 5th, 2010 at 05:35 AM
A>B and B>C therefor A>C does not work. Don't even try it.
Or to prove that lukes a sap and sucks at life. Option C is always better.
"That doesn't count, i'm not ready" philosophy doesn't work here either. Everyone has distractions during combat.
No, not necessarily. Luke has more feats, but how does that compare to Sideous's abilities gathered and put into practice for 100 years?
__________________
YER LATEFER TEA!!
Last edited by Moriarty on Jun 5th, 2010 at 05:45 AM
You people who are desperately attempting to wedge your heads neck deep into the dark abyss that is Luke Skywalker's bumhole ought to consider calming down and think about this rationally.
No one here is suggesting that Luke Skywalker is anything other than extremely powerful. No one. No one. NO ONE.
That makes a ton of sense.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: Not.
First, Lumiya was one of Palpatine's agents (just like Mara Jade). Her fighting technique and her tactical acumen is largely due to the Emperor's training.
Second, Lumiya confessed to Jacen in the Legacy of the Force series that, like Vader, she lacks the capacity to use the Force to its greatest potential, even though her powers don't seem all that limited. Interestingly enough, she mentions "neither did [Darth Vader's powers seem all that limited], except compared to the Emperor, whose powers had no limit." This is tantamount to an admission that she isn't on par with the Emperor.
Third, unlike Vader, Lumiya has not been established to be remarkably powerful in the Force. She's just a highly trained fighter with excellent technique.
Being able to challenge and defeat Luke Skywalker does not necessarily mean that she's on par with the Emperor, but if you'd like to make your case, feel free to do so.
Well, since I left my portable mind reader in my dorm room, I couldn't tell you. My guess? The authors and editing team are trying to keep Luke from becoming a walking Marty Stu.
Well, I can tell you on behalf of all the other Lumiya Lovers, we care a great deal what you think.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: I'm being sarcastic, as Lumiya Lovers are prone to do.
You shame your idol with your inability to see the point, which is thus: Skywalker losing to Lumiya or being unable to stop an escaping shuttle isn't proof (or intended to be proof) that he sucks. It's intended to prove that the guy clearly isn't capable of unleashing WTFLOLuber telekinesis capable of manipulating dovin basals or resisting black holes whenever he feels like it. Otherwise he would have clearly been able to crush Lumiya like a tin can and likewise to the shuttle.
The texts are being interpreted factually, as judged by the fact that you haven't bothered to refute the points made. You just don't like the conclusions.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: No one cares. Make your case or don't, but for God's sake, don't whine.
...
Is HWKN some sort of e-solar flare to the rest of the Retard Kingdom? Your invasion of this noble establishment will not succeed!
She's a Force user of seemingly moderate capability with considerable technique and training?
Gideon, I'm not disagreeing with your point that Luke can't ALWAYS be uber TK, Majin Buu, super saiyan, etc.
The assumptions I made in my post are just based on everyone's discussion on Lumiya v. Luke.
And contrary to you, I actually DO care what folks like you think about the EU, because that's why I joined the forums. I enjoy reading people's opinions on these things.
And factual texts are still interpreted differently by different people (i.e. Lumiya blocking all attacks, while continuing to lose ground = Ownage level for Luke is Zero.) Not necessarily, Lumiya is retreating...(but again this is my view compared to others, which I do enjoy reading)
FER TEA!!
Jun 5th, 2010 12:29 AM
http://darthglentract.tripod.com/index.html Go Jawa's!!
