What he says about Aikido aplies to many TMA. Let's just rephrase Bruce Lee, you should study all martial arts, learn what works, forget what doesn't work. MMA did that, and the only martial arts that doesn't agree are the ones who didn't pass the test obviously.
Now, you can agree with the evidence and the Darwin's aproach of MMA to fighting or you can just believe in each martial art bible, believing that you are invincible until you fight a good boxer who breaks your jaw.
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Chin Na has grappling in it, but that's hardly the entirety of it. Like Qi Gong and Nei Jing, its a very chi-based discipline. Though in your defense, most Americanized Kung Fu schools typically bill Chin Na as a form of stand-up grappling.
^That's the attitude I'm referring to. All martial arts "work", depending on what's going on; "the right tool for the right job". The reason we don't see Aikido often if ever in MMA, is because it has a lot of lapel grabs and gi throws, which depend on the opponent wearing clothes. And obviously, the guys in MMA are shirtless. When you break it down, Aikido is really just a softer style of Judo.
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Last edited by Quiero Mota on Mar 13th, 2011 at 10:42 PM
Of course they can fight outside the ring, but the insinuation that people who don't regularly fight competitively can't fight is absurd. Though, then again he does spar on occasion.
I personally take his word for it and not just cause he is my Sifu. I couldn't see the guy ever lying, even as a sarcastic joke.
Nowadays, its kinda hard to believe that a MA book would seriously promote those two cartoonish moves. Then again, the book was written in the 80's when fad-dojos were popping up on every corner. The MA craze of the 70's was still going strong.
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Holy crap
Hit the nail on the head.
And yeah, I studied Lau Gar for close to five years, and when MMA became big, I saw it the same way - gimmicky and impractical.
They use western boxing which is a more narrow and limited system than the striking techniques found in Gung Fu and even Karate, and I've seen MMA fighters in TV and real life make mistakes in a fight that even a first-year LG student wouldn't make - such as exposing your back after throwing a roundhouse kick or backfist.
I've beaten a few of my friends who practice MMA in sparring matches and always comment they should switch to something more practical, but they're loyal to the stuff.
I can see eye-to-eye with most MMA people staying loyal to their art - I feel the same way about mine.
But it is impractical and generally nowhere near as effective as classical MA.
I said "mostly" because he said stuff like he studied Lau Gar, which might be true.
I'm trying to be fair and balanced.
Edit: Have you noticed that most of the "MMA is impractical" sentiments usually come from Kung Fu stylists? It's strange since kung fu is frequently accused of the same thing by nearly every other style on the planet.
I rarely see legitimate Judo or Karate stylists lash out at MMA. Then again, they have way more representation and successful fighters, so maybe they don't care as much.
Last edited by StyleTime on Mar 26th, 2011 at 07:45 PM
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It's highly impractical. Whenever you seek to check your opponent by use of aggression and brute force, you set yourself up for defeat.
There isn't much about most forms of Gung Fu that are impractical - unless they aren't applied properly.
In the variation of Lau Gar I learned, we use sweeping motions with one arm to block incoming strikes and it's very effective.
It's a type of circular motion that some types of Karate also use.
It takes defense to a progressive and kinetically-active level, rather than just standing there and holding one arm up against your head, and waiting for your opponent to decide which part of your body he wants to smash in that particular moment of time.
- That's most of the defense in MMA, which is derived from western boxing.
Typically when I spar against a friend who practices MMA, he does that sort of thing, and it allows me to control the tempo of the fight.
Then he goes in close after I block everything and tries to slap a submission on me, during which time, with his hands planted on my body, I fire a precise strike to an exposed part of his body, or use a joint-lock to break away and re-position myself.
I've noticed that while MMA seems to be mostly very primitive, it is slowly adapting techniques found in Gung Fu, such as foot-stomps or backfists.
I remember seeing a bout where the spectators made a big deal about the backfist, even though in Gung Fu and LG to be sure, you learn it within the first year and it's a casual technique.
What is fantastic to them, is something very mundane in Gung Fu.
Also, if I use MMA and defend myself from an attacker by trying to have a drawn-out boxing match with them - punches to the body and head, that may last minutes, I'm doing myself a disservice.
If I use Lau Gar and defend myself from an attacker, my positioning my body in sync with his, and delivering a single punch to his eye-socket, planting him to the ground in agony, I'm achieving the technical usage of the artform and saving time, motion and energy in the process.
I can see why Judo exponents wouldn't lash out at the MMA world - seeing as many of it's practitioners have that artform blended into their mix, and as a close friend who practices Sanchin-Ryu Karate made me aware, there are a few fighters in professional MMA that practice Karate such as Chuck Liddell and Lyoto Machida.
I think aside from the Shorin-Ryu Sensei at the beginning of this thread, many Karate practitioners don't prefer to bash MMA perhaps because a few of their own favor it, and it might be out of respect.
There are advantages to MMA that many classical arts don't have - number one is the lack of "stickiness" or combat-paralysis that a person typically unfamiliar with the constant and sporadic encounters many MMA people endure, would not have.
Training in a Dojo or Gwoon for an extended amount of time, practicing pre-arranged forms and exercises can construct you into a formidable fighter, but it won't prepare you for a random and hostile environment that MMA practitioners are arguably more used to.
So they do have that going for them. That, and I believe the strength of MMA lies obviously not in it's striking formulas, but in it's ground-fighting capabilities.
The ability to neutralize someone without even landing a single punch, or doing life-threatening damage is invaluable, and MMA fighters do it beautifully.
So, overall is it as affective as Gung Fu?
Not so much - but perhaps in a more diplomatic setting where you can't afford to gouge someones eye out in order to win, MMA might be just what you need.
But before I go, I should address what might be MMA's biggest weakness, and that is it's inability to take on more than one opponent effectively.
Western boxing, where it's striking techniques are chiefly derived from, was mostly developed over time, into an artform that excels and is made for mostly just one opponent.
Add more opponents to the mix, and the techniques start to lose their potency.
Another is the fact that if you go the ground with an opponent, in order to submit him - another person, or three, can quickly come up behind you, kick you in the head, and kill you.
If you use a form of Gung Fu, like LG for example, you keep the fight on your feet to deal with these problems effectively - you use advanced countering techniques with your hands, and you use your available mobility to maintain influence in the situation.
According to a friend who studies a different form of Gung Fu, the northern styles are really good for this and utilise more motion for defense.
In any case, as the years go by and move past in decades, you will see a dramatic change and evolution in MMA, as it will re-acquire and re-adapt different techniues that exist in artforms like those in Gung Fu, and develop and evolve into a more complete and technically-sound organism.
Essentially, the MMA you see today is the animal Gung Fu was thousands years ago.
Truth is in MMA Wrestling is very effective in the ring/cage. Due to restrictions some traditional techniques are removed and rightly so. I don't want to see small joint manipulation and eye gougingg it is a sport. Going to the ground on the street is foolish as with multiple opponents it's asking for a football kick to the head, I don't want football kicks to the head in the sport. I remember when they were.
With Boxing we have never seen a top boxer who has cross trained compete in MMA. I do believe, with a takedown defence and defence against muay thai leg kicks, they would dominate like Anderson silva has with his adequate boxing skills and good muay thai and Jui Jitsu. I think a top boxer would do well if he has some defence and some wrestling or BJJ. Karate has a place, Machida has shown this as do most other traditional martial arts, but in the Octagon if you are rely to strongly on one style someone will beat you. Look at Brock. I would not want him charging at me; however, quality stand up exposed him. He is the baddest man in the Octagon if he can take you down. Styles make fights at the end of the day. Cross training is more effective than a single style anywhere; however, on the street anything can happen due to the greater range of variables. In the ring upsets happen but they usually don't, so it's safer and the bookies love it.
Edit: And staying loyal to the art has nothing to do with it.
I took JJ for a year as a kid, and TKD for about 5 years. I can easily say that MMA as a combination of the arts is superior than a singular martial art.
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Last edited by Dr. Leg Kick on Mar 28th, 2011 at 01:03 AM
Same goes for the field of medicine. Nowadays, you can't just be a general practitioner, medicine constantly changes, you either adapt or you lack the knowledge need to treat.
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Hmm
All good points.
In an octagon, perhaps it is a compilation of many basic techniques from different formulas that will save you - as opposed to from one art.
Cross-training does have it's virtues.
However wouldn't some say that it's the individual that makes the fights - and not the arts he employs?
I was also wondering if you could site some good examples of singular-stylists getting beaten by people who have greatly cross-trained.
That sounds interesting to me.
However, the lack of knowledge of the other fields puts the practitioner at risk.
And again, I'm not dissing any singular art, I praise most, but a disadvantage should be apparent for the singular artist. Not saying he has no chance of being the victor, but it's a significant disadvantage.
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it would still seem to me that many styles of Gung Fu are still more practical for the street than even a multi-layered variation of MMA.
If only for the lack of more extreme counter-measures and the defensive methods needed to stave off an attack from unconventionally violent and or multiple attackers.
I think with the evolution of MMA in perhaps a few decades and some of the more ancient artforms grafted into it's chemistry, you might see MMA as a more effective system for such real life encounters.
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Re: Re: Hmm
True - LG does lack pretty much ground-fighting techniques, so actually did train in MMA for a little while, to learn how to defend aginst those sort of things...
I hold respect for the ground-fighting capabilities in MMA - I just cringe and shake my head when I see all the primitive striking, and people getting knocked out because they weren't able to attack or defend well enough.
Well technically, MMA is just Pankration fighting with heavy influence of modern wrestling, and BJJ. The artform is ancient.
Incorporating stand up from Gung Fu for instance, CAN be used in MMA, but HOW is the real question. I have minimal knowledge in that art so I can't imagine how the techniques (legal ones of course) can be used to defeat an opponent in the octagon.
In a street fight, that door opens many more questions.
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Here's my problem - Many people say this statement, yet they've never been hit with a strike they are not used to. I'm not bashing your style, your credentials or your victories/defeats in training, however - one thing I've noticed from TKD is that the style is very methodical and robotic. I can't compare that to your style, but TKD has only offered about 2 things that can really be useful in MMA.
1. Balance. The balance training in TKD is great. Really helps when throwing strikes.
2. Some of the Kicks. Round house, side kicks, both can be useful in MMA if the proper technique is used.
Then again, this does not help you much. TKD strikers have their arms always low and majority of kicks (besides the round house, side kick, axe kick) are thrown with snaps. Not helpful.
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Last edited by Dr. Leg Kick on Mar 28th, 2011 at 01:28 AM
Kung Fu would suck in MMA, you couldnt even use half of its art. You couldnt even use the animal forms and techniques. Some dude will take you down before you even try it.
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Mar 13th, 2011 06:28 PM
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Hmm
