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Why fangirls love to ruin good characters?
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Sparrabella
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Originally posted by ToddianGirl

I agree 100% it had to be Will his destiny was to be the captain of the FD. I'm so glad it wasn't Jack, James or Barbarossa thank God for that. I remember being depressed over Jack and Elizabeth not being a couple but now I see that her and Will belong together cause they are so freaking depressing.


They belong together only because they can`t be with anyone and that includes each other. Their "relationship" only works while they are separated which is most of the time in the movies. First it was social hierachy that kept them on the distance but they didn`t really try to bridge the gap in secret either. Than Beckett saved them from making the biggest mistake of their lives since time together obviously frustrated her while he was blissfully clueless that she is not happy. So they spend DMC apart for a long time during which she develops attraction to Jack. Then they spend AWE separated because of machinations too convulted to explain but most importantly, because they have nothing to talk about. Which is why they prefer to stay separated. Finally, they marry only to end up apart which is why their "marriage" will last those 10 years or 10 x forever. As long as they don`t have to talk to each other, do things together, live together, you know, anything that people with common interest do, they are good.

quote:
Jack doesn't need her anymore like you said the min she married Will, Jack's want for her went out the window.


I think his love went out of the window the moment she chained him to the mast. When Jack tricks you, he always leaves you enough leverige and instructions how to get out of the stricky stituation. When he "betrayed" Will several times, he always gave him some substantial leverige to survive and come out victorious. However, when Elisabeth screws you over, it`s final. Done. No escape. Same goes for Norrington. He screws you over, you are toast but on epic level (you + hundereds + thousands of others). It was a lucky coincidence that Tia could fetch Jack from the Locker but he still had to spend some time there which messed up with his mind.

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I also see his "Keep Telling Yourself That Darling" line to her was "You made your bed now go lie in it."


Absolutely. Their goodbye was final and OST is going to be canon so obviously he didn`t think of her again, had no interest to see how she is doing,etc. Now, I totally hate those Sparrabeth fanfics where he is such a fathful doting boyfriend because it is out of character. But we know that he cares for his many loves more or less and remaines in pretty good relationship with all of them more or less again (Scarlett&Giselle, Ana Maria, Tia, Angelica in OST). Yet Elisabeth is the only one who he won`t visit even thought Billy Turner would certainly profit from having a real man around. The goodbye was a farewell. They never saw each other again and since she was bound to one place in order to wait for Will and raise Billy, it was his call to navigate his ship/dinghy/whatever to her destination. Not happening.

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The more I'm understanding the more I really don't like Elizabeth as much as I did before she uses people for her own gain, also she never suffered any consequences of her actions.


I don`t know about that. Celibacy is a pretty damn big consequence to me. Having no friends, no relatives while raising a son alone is a pretty big consequence. She managed to drive away everyone who ever cared for her because she only started to care when she lost them. She didn`t even think of her father since her escape until she saw him dead in that boat. That`s terrible. Will cares for his father who absolutely deserves no love or sympathy since he abandoned his young son, but Elisabeth didn`t even think of her awesome dad. She started to care for Norrington at the moment of his impending death. She started to care for Jack when he was gone. If she cared beforehand, she wouldn`t have chained him to the mast so that he cannot die with dignity or make a choice to stay behind. Just all around terrible, insensitive selfish little girl who never grew up.

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What do you make of her crying in Tia's shack after Jack died?(Yeah she killed him) Did she really feel bad or was it all bull? LMAO about Barbarossa pouring water in his boots and running! laughing


She lost him so naturally she wanted him back. Just a type of person who doesn`t appreciate what she`s got. Just take a look at her behavior after he was rescued. Like nothing ever happened. No apology, nothing.
IMO, her crying was because she knew nobody would have approved of her cowardly deed so she had to keep it to herself and face the fact she didn`t have as high moral center as she fancied she did. Remember when Jack told her they were so alike and she quoted moral center as one of reasons they are not. IMO, Jack fell out of love because her cowardly trickery proved they indeed weren`t all that alike. He has moral center, she doesn`t. I mean, c`mon, he proved he was a good man and did the honorable thing and she executed him for it. He would never had done that to anyone. So in the end, she was crying because she screwed up her chances with him. Even when she didn`t know he could be fetched, she knew he would be done with her because she crossed the line. He sacks a port and commandeers a Navy ship without firing a single bullet, she tricks him into death trap after he saved her life. No love lost on his part.

Last edited by Sparrabella on Mar 18th, 2011 at 11:06 PM

Old Post Mar 18th, 2011 11:01 PM
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siriuswriter
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i think that if the movies stuck to just cotbp, we all would be fine. both will and elizabeth begin at the same place, cinematically speaking. She's had a pleasant but not remarkable life, he's glad to be alive and working on something with which he has a talent. socially, they're both fresh out off the boat [ elizabeth, because she's not in england, and doesn't have a mother "calm her down" to be the perfect debutante.] will, because... oh yes! he's orphaned, son of a "seaman," and just has a bit of speciality about him because the governor helped to rescue him and has kept tabs on him since. They're both very unglamorous characters, especially inserted into this time period.

That gives both characters a bit of "free-er-ness." In Elizabeth, it's a bad trait because it means she's way spoiled. In Will, it's a good thing because in England he would've been stomped on to stay down.

Then the glamorous, exotic pirate Captain Jack Sparrow arrives, meets the two dull characters in shocking ways [ripping off a woman's corset is nigh on to rape in this time period], and, of course, outsmarting the law [notably, Norrington, one who is not used to being outsmarted.] and descending on Will like a bat out of Hell.

Jack spends time with both characters, and because off all the acting and whimsy we don't really see it, but he's playing matchmaker.

So yay, everything ends well, the good pirate proves himself, the bad military finds themselves looking like fools, Will and Liz are together and their first kiss is heralded by the escaping of the loony pirate. It's an Old Movie ending. They all lived happily ever after, including Norrington, who lets bygones be bygones as a well of well-being to all rises in his now noble chest.

Kiss in beautiful light, end.

But then they decided to make a sequel.

First off, because of what was planned as a one-shot movie, things are in canon that are incredibly inconvenient. For one thing, in the long run, Norry would never do what he did in COTBP, Elizabeth would have married William and probably have had a pleasant yet unremarkable life again.

Alas, the sequels gave us character traits that hadn't shown up in No. 1, where everything was simpler and could have a Disney ending.

And again, what can you do with a story that's had the Disney ending? This is why Disney has been frowned upon, unofficial sequels coming out, made from stories that we haven't seen Disneyfied since the forties and fifties. You're done making the original film, once you've decided to tie up all the strings and snip the edges clean.

So I like to watch Curse of the Black Pearl by itself, and think of it by itself. Because then I can believe that things will be right from now on, that Jack will be free and Will will love Liz and Liz will love Will, and that Norrington will now reign with a lighter hand and nobody will ever have to be killed any more.

And then that feeling was killed off once we see Lizzy cheating on Will with Jack and a little boy hang to death.

I like to think of myself as a "responsible fangirl." I love the first movie, and I always will. But I have to love it for itself, and watch the others for the funny and memorable parts.

Anyone identify with anything here?


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Last edited by siriuswriter on Mar 20th, 2011 at 10:50 PM

Old Post Mar 20th, 2011 10:47 PM
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Sparrabella
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Great post, siriuswriter (fellow Sirius Black fan, I assume?)! A few thoughts:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by siriuswriter
i think that if the movies stuck to just cotbp, we all would be fine.


That or making sequels only with Jack and leaving out everyone who was just an episode in his life - Will, Elisabeth, Norrington,etc. We have seen from the ending of COTBP and AWE as well as everything that passed in DMC and AWE that Will and Elisabeth would never become true friends and pirate buddies with Jack, even after Pirate King Mary Sue EXtraordinaire stunt. Their relationship was based on who needed whom first and foremost with some respect and affection mixed in but they would never form a bond like Gibbs and Jack. Now, I do think that of all those characters Norrington actually had potential to go from enemy to reluctant ally to real friend because he and Jack are very much alike. Jack is a rogue outside and gentleman inside, while Norrington is a gentleman outside and rogue inside. Each man had that inner side bursting to come out and we`ve seen what happens when it comes forth and it`s a dynamo.

quote:
both will and elizabeth begin at the same place, cinematically speaking.


Actually, Norrington and Elisabeth had that going much better - from English repression to letting their hair loose (literally and figuratively) to achieving the highest level of their own profession (Pirate King and the Admiral) to defying old prejudice and doing what they think is right as opposed to what they are told is right to making ultimate sacrifice (he dies so that she can live and by that put the stop to Beckett`s tyrany, she forsakes life of adventure and real relationship to wait for Will).

quote:
She's had a pleasant but not remarkable life,


I wouldn`t agree. My biggest beef with Elisabeth is that her yarn for freedom makes no sense because her father gives her everything except what he isn`t aware of since she didn`t talk - Will. Also, for a lady of her station, she was quite knowledgable about pirates, naval strategy, law,etc which means that she had a clear access (books, father, Norrington) to stuff that interested her. Therefore, when her father tried to pair her with Norrington it was because he thought love was mutual and he had strong foundation to believe it since she showed keen interest in Norrington`s job. And unlike Will and Elisabeth whose romance is founded on dreams, these two had a real foundation for a relationship - except that they starred in a fairytale where that doesn`t mean squat. big grin Also, she lived abroad and how "boring" is to be courted by a badass pirate hunter? In couple of years, he`d get a tour of rotation somewhere else and she would live in another exotic and dangerous place. Again, neither unremarkable life nor a perspective of an unremarkable life.


quote:
he's glad to be alive and working on something with which he has a talent.


Yet unable to move himself upwards with the said talent. He doesn`t advertise it which is partly modesty and partly lack of any ambition save to be with Elisabeth, although climb up the social ladder thanks to talent would do the trick. He`s a master swords-maker and sword-master and PR was a Naval port so his business would be booming. However, because we are in a fairytale, remember, he dreams of winning her heart by pure chivalry which is why she spends 8 years waiting for his pirateness to reveal itself. He`s not making chances (as in joining pirates like Jakc or Navy like Norrington for some darring-do`s or heroics) but is waiting for one to fall into his lap. Which it finally does.

quote:
socially, they're both fresh out off the boat [ elizabeth, because she's not in england, and doesn't have a mother "calm her down" to be the perfect debutante.] will, because... oh yes! he's orphaned, son of a "seaman," and just has a bit of speciality about him because the governor helped to rescue him and has kept tabs on him since. They're both very unglamorous characters, especially inserted into this time period.


Will believed he was a son of a respectable merchant which means that he and his mother had a pretty good standing and considering that Will is educated, doesn`t speak with "yer be warned" accent, he was schooled which wasn`t a norm in those times. It was pirate attack that robbed him of everything and Swann`s unwillingness to do more for him. I mean, it isn`t that he had to but it would have been a nice gesture.

quote:
That gives both characters a bit of "free-er-ness." In Elizabeth, it's a bad trait because it means she's way spoiled. In Will, it's a good thing because in England he would've been stomped on to stay down.


Will`s free-er-ness is different from Elisabeth`s because it is entirely Elisabeth-focused. Nothing for him, everything for her. OTOH, hers was always about her first and Will was just a part of it. "If I`m set free, I can have Will and anything else" rather than "All I want is freedom to worship my love interest". Hence why Will doesn`t try to impress socially (Look, I make best swords in the world!) but in the way of Camelot and other romanic Mediaval songs and stories (I`d die for her - which is, ironically, what Norrington does without making big exclamations)

quote:
Then the glamorous, exotic pirate Captain Jack Sparrow arrives, meets the two dull characters in shocking ways [ripping off a woman's corset is nigh on to rape in this time period], and, of course, outsmarting the law [notably, Norrington, one who is not used to being outsmarted.] and descending on Will like a bat out of Hell.

Jack spends time with both characters, and because off all the acting and whimsy we don't really see it, but he's playing matchmaker.


He is playing a matchmaker but is also setting all characters free from their old repressions and prejudices. Which works for everyone except Elisabeth who is supposed to be set free by Will and she just isn`t. Jack opens her mind about freedom and Norrington sets her free to be happy with Will (while endorsing Will`s talent to give him social boost he wasn`t capable to earn for himself). Will just collects the prize which isn`t unearned (he did his chivalry) but on psychological level, he didn`t do squat.

quote:
So yay, everything ends well, the good pirate proves himself, the bad military finds themselves looking like fools,


Military was never bad in COTBP. They were good guys but the movie criticized discriminating law that put all pirates in the same category regarless of actual crime and overzealousness which is what Norrington overcomes in the end. But they were good guys who fought valiantly at Isla De Muerta. Anatgonists sure but not villains.

quote:
Will and Liz are together and their first kiss is heralded by the escaping of the loony pirate. It's an Old Movie ending. They all lived happily ever after, including Norrington, who lets bygones be bygones as a well of well-being to all rises in his now noble chest.

Kiss in beautiful light, end.


That was a perfect fairytale ending and should have been let alone.

quote:
But then they decided to make a sequel.


Which gave us Sparrabeth and Scruffington so I will always love DMC more even thought COTBP is a better movie. big grin

quote:
First off, because of what was planned as a one-shot movie, things are in canon that are incredibly inconvenient. For one thing, in the long run, Norry would never do what he did in COTBP, Elizabeth would have married William and probably have had a pleasant yet unremarkable life again.


I agree that Will and ELisabeth were to have pleasent and unremarkable life (he returned to his blacksmith shop) but I disagree about Norrington. We knew from COTBP that he had a temper and tendecy towards non-PC decisions (fire on their own ship) and what happened at the end of COTBP was a huge public humilation for him. Dumped by his fiance, prisoner escaped (though he did think he shouldn`t have been hanged) all in front of the whole city. So he had to do a lot of counts to 10 to save his face and there was this moment where you cna see his mind is so overwhelmed with thoughts he cannot speak so Swann jumps in to give him some guidance. Therefore, you have a man with all kinds of strong emotions fighting inside while the town is watching and he takes control of himself...there. What happened when he was alone in his gym (I expect punching bag got blown to pieces) is another matter but the shock he survived that day is simply impossible to overcome easily. So I can buy sailing through hurricane just fine (we know he didn`t fear death, and after what happened he may have had a secret death wish) and drowning his sorrow in a bottle and all sorts of things. of all POTC characters, he is the closest to a real person.

quote:
So I like to watch Curse of the Black Pearl by itself, and think of it by itself. Because then I can believe that things will be right from now on, that Jack will be free and Will will love Liz and Liz will love Will, and that Norrington will now reign with a lighter hand and nobody will ever have to be killed any more.


Well, those who deserve to be killed should be killed. Murder and rapist should get hanged.

quote:
And then that feeling was killed off once we see Lizzy cheating on Will with Jack and a little boy hang to death.


This is a whole new chapter for discussion which I will come back to after work.

Last edited by Sparrabella on Mar 21st, 2011 at 12:13 PM

Old Post Mar 21st, 2011 12:10 PM
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Sparrabella
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quote:
And then that feeling was killed off once we see Lizzy cheating on Will with Jack and a little boy hang to death.



Lizzie "cheating" on Will was a part of the writer`s idea that she was a modern day girl stuck in 18th century. So her flirting and finally passionate kiss with Jack was a modren day exploration of sexuality (less puritan, less monogamy-is-everything). Then they made a 180 degree turn in the thrid movie where modern day girl stuck in 18th century suddenly becomes Penelope from Homer`s Odyssey - the famous faithful wife who with her son was fending off suitors in order to stay true to her husband lost at the sea for 20 years. It was as if they didn`t know what message they wanted to get across so between over-simplified fiction feminism (weekend warriorship, Alpha female) and Disney family values ( true love is always first love, chaste heroine) , they messed up completely. COTBP was a classic fairytale, sequels tried to be dark but had no guts to go all the way. Hence the only established rule of coming back from dead is that a character must be a big gun. Only big characters defy death in different ways while small characters stay dead. That`s chickening out.

As for hanging the little boy, this ties with what I said about dark turn but no balls to pull no punches. They opened the movie with something as disturbing and anti-Disney as that, only to continue with tons of slapstick, puritan family values (that discrimninates woman`s choice - lets not forget that Will asked her to wait which limited her choice to hurting his feeling or pleasing him by obeying) and pretty damn atrocious way of presenting death as something that easy breezy fixable (Jack`s escape, Will`s immortality - nobody is coping with the loss because there isn`t any that lasts for more than few days or minutes). OK, Harry Potter this ain`t but considering that they wanted this to have some deeper message (hence hanged child, freedom battle cry,etc), it just descended into shallowness.

Old Post Mar 21st, 2011 11:24 PM
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siriuswriter
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Wow, long response. BUT Sparrabella, I was talking about the first movie by itself - so you can't bring the sequels into it. Pretend as if they don't exist, and we don't get as deep in the characters.

What I meant about Norrington easing up was that he decided against immediate chase of a convict, which, just from cotbp, is certainly against the norm and MOST certainly disneyfied - this is the tough crew from "Atlantis" deciding not to listen to their crazy boss anymore but to help Milo keep Kita down in Atlantis where she belongs.

The whole thing can be summed up in one sentence, to me. Forgetting all other aftermath, COTBP was a live action Disney Movie with the proper clear Disney movie motives.

It's when the sequels start that things begin to veer from "That's Disney!"

And that's what I liked about it. CotBP was a fantasy that took you away from it all without becoming too emotionally invested in the characters. It's a check-your-brain-at-the-door kind of film.

Oh, and I wanted to address your opinion about Will and Liz starting at the same place cinematically, I don't think I said what I was thinking well enough. Both of the have stories that are just waiting for a catalyst - For Liz, I believe it's when Norrington asks for her hand in marriage - she now has discovered that, while Daddy let her do whatever she liked, her life might not always be that way. For Will, it's the meeting and subsequent swordfight with Jack, which spikes his worries for Liz and he becomes passionate about the whole thing which gives us a splendid fight scene. Will is now "ready" to [timidly, I'll admit] call Liz by her first name, which woiuld be the first of many steps to achieve his dream.

So when I say I look at cotbp by itself, I mean by itself. Forget the sequels and all of T n' T's tidbits of sharing. Because bringing in the sequels very obviously "corrupt," the Disney protestant value of "If you work hard for it, you'll achieve it." That Disney mainstay, coming from Walt himself, is the basis of all/most Disney movies, a pattern which is, again, changed after DMC and AWE show up.

Once you watch those too, you come back to number one and, I think, sometimes try to see things that aren't there so you can extrapolate those theories and make them work into the theories of the sequels.

I prefer my disney fantasy pure and unadulterated, thank you very much. big grin


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Old Post Mar 22nd, 2011 02:21 AM
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Sparrabella
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by siriuswriter
Wow, long response. BUT Sparrabella, I was talking about the first movie by itself - so you can't bring the sequels into it. Pretend as if they don't exist, and we don't get as deep in the characters.


But they are pretty deep thanks to the sequels. I`d say that the only thing sequels did wrong is those awful character closures in AWE but otherwise they did quite well with some characterisations. I always prefer something to think about to having nothing.

quote:
What I meant about Norrington easing up was that he decided against immediate chase of a convict, which, just from cotbp, is certainly against the norm and MOST certainly disneyfied


It`s Disneyfied but it is something that DMC corrects when Beckett comes over with the arrest warrant for Will, Elisbarth and Norrington because all 3 were involved in letting Jack escape. Now this is where you contradict yourself a bit - you don`t like sequels and you don`t like Disneyfication, but DMC turns it on its head and instead of shiny happy utterly unrealistic living happily ever after ending, that is pure Disney, everything goes south.

Which actually gives COTBP`s ending more sense. Governor and Norrington were highest officials (one government, another military) in the Caribbean or at least Port Royal area. So who would actually arrest them for personal reasons (couhgElisabeth-siding-with-Jackcough) - induced break of the law? Nobody from their realm of power but you bet that someone obviously alerted London (coughGrovescough) and here comes Prince on the White Horse Lord Beckett to put the law in lawlessness.

quote:
The whole thing can be summed up in one sentence, to me. Forgetting all other aftermath, COTBP was a live action Disney Movie with the proper clear Disney movie motives.


Not quite. You forget that unlike typical Disney heroine who is all heart of gold and honesty, Elisabeth lies to Norrington and then humilitates him in public and the man didn`t deserve it. That`s as far from proper clear Disney movie motive as it gets. Her happiness was built on a good man`s misery and that fact that he is a real man who took it like a real man. If you wanted complete Disney values ending, than Norrington`s Eowyn would wake up in the House of Healing to meet female Faramir who would convince him that his love for Elisabeth was only infatuation and that he actually loves Faramiria. And this is from a huge fan of LOTR books who always hated that cop out but, damn, if there was ever a character who deserved Eowyn/Faramir ending, it`s Norrington in the whole series as well as COTBP alone.

quote:
It's when the sequels start that things begin to veer from "That's Disney!"


How`s that bad? You just criticized some typical Disney s*** forgive my language. IMO, veering from The Disney wasn`t a problem as much as "not veering from enough" was. They tried to please too many different quadrants which created a mess with mixed messages and nonsense.

quote:
And that's what I liked about it. CotBP was a fantasy that took you away from it all without becoming too emotionally invested in the characters. It's a check-your-brain-at-the-door kind of film.


That`s your POV but you will find many fans who were intensely emotionally involved and there`s no denying that the movie had some deeper messages. The whole " a pirate and a good man" vs "pirate brand and flag, doesn`t matter what actual crime, hang him" is pretty good thinking stuff as was some character`s questionable decisions/behavior.

quote:
Oh, and I wanted to address your opinion about Will and Liz starting at the same place cinematically, I don't think I said what I was thinking well enough. Both of the have stories that are just waiting for a catalyst - For Liz, I believe it's when Norrington asks for her hand in marriage - she now has discovered that, while Daddy let her do whatever she liked, her life might not always be that way. For Will, it's the meeting and subsequent swordfight with Jack, which spikes his worries for Liz and he becomes passionate about the whole thing which gives us a splendid fight scene. Will is now "ready" to [timidly, I'll admit] call Liz by her first name, which woiuld be the first of many steps to achieve his dream.


Oh, I agree about the catalyst thing. For Elisabeth, time was running out. I guess that despite her "modern" "you robbed me of my wedding night" "I`m so ready to be married" sexual curiosity, she perceived marriage as game over as far as her hopes to ever be with Will go (as in she wouldn`t dare to cheat but most importantly, Will wouldn`t mess up with a married woman aka Elisabeth and Will are Scarlett O`Hara and Ashley Wilks of POTC). For Will, Jack`s arrival was his long desired chance to become a Prince in the Shiny Armour. Which is what he really was, PitSA not a pirate. Pirate and PitSA may be interchangable in Elisabeth`s mind but as far as Disney Princes go, Will is up there with Prince Philip of Sleeping Beauty, another character prompted to heroism by his damsel`s distress.

quote:
So when I say I look at cotbp by itself, I mean by itself. Forget the sequels and all of T n' T's tidbits of sharing. Because bringing in the sequels very obviously "corrupt," the Disney protestant value of "If you work hard for it, you'll achieve it."


Eh, the protestant value you just described was corrupt in COTBP to a degree. Norrington worked harder than Will to deserve Elisabeth, hence why he didn`t propose before his promotion but after, when he was on equal footing with her father, so that nobody could say he was a social climber or whatever. Fans always tend to see Will`s rush jump into saving Elisabeth as a proof of "love" while forgetting that Norrington, unlike Will, was responsible for the whole town`s well-being and couldn`t leave them in a mess in order to follow his selfish impulse. He worked on her rescue as well as on the rescue of the citizens and marines that were hit hard by Barbossa attack. So you have two heroes except that one isn`t perceived as such because his job is to risk his life on daily basis so nobody thinks of it as heroism, while the other doesn`t have to risk his life like a professional soldier so he is hailed a hero for taking such intitiative. Finally, Norrington forsakes his happiness of having Elisabeth as his wife so that she can be happy with who her heart chose, which is a tremendous personal sacrifice on his part,and letting Jack go, pressing no charges against Will (he also gave his sword-forging skills a compliment for all to hear) are career-risking decisions. So as far as that value goes, he`s worked super-hard but achieved nothing (in what his heart desired the most).


quote:
I prefer my disney fantasy pure and unadulterated, thank you very much. big grin


And I maintain that COTBP wasn`t pure Disney to begin with but they did achieve a good balance of Disney and subversive elements. After all, Jack is a major subversive, non-Disney element of the movie which is why it became so popular. He is now one of Disney`s most recognizable icons and wrongly thought of as Pure Disney, but he really was and still is anti-Disney. I mean, a perpetually drunk womanizing hero? Deffinitely not Disney. wink

Last edited by Sparrabella on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:18 PM

Old Post Mar 22nd, 2011 12:13 PM
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