His make up is Loreal, but that isn't the point here. Gothmog is explicitly on a lower tier, and his only victories are achieved with legions of followers. Sauron has been known to throw down solo and come out looking much better in comparison.
Not close to true as I've been showing. Gothmog has the more impressive victories BY FAR and it's not even that close. Shit besting feanor is alone better than anything Sauron has ever beaten. Clearly you're not applying your logic and reason as you do in the star wars forum. Feats trump all, and in this case, Gothmog has superior feats.
Point is.. he FOUGHT Glaurung and drove him back with help or without is not relevant. It's again, another feat that the people you listed DON'T HAVE. You just can't get around this point can you Ares. Fingon was leading the charge and drove him back with the aid of some archers. Still impressive none the less, even more so, when you see how pitiful the feats of your guys are.
Again, you can say the balrogs weren't this and weren't that but AGAIN... it's still a feat that trumps what you've put forward. Not only that, but slaying gothmog is exponentially better than having no feats.. SO....
Now it's time to stop being obtuse and dodging the facts here...
Name me the feats of the people you listed as Sauron besting in battle. I asked you before and you say... I CAN'T NAME THEM BECUAE THEY DON'T HAVE ANY. I wanna make this point again because clearly people like Moose are forgetting how we judge fights here. They are based on FEATS. Now.... the feats of Fingon.. Ecth and feanor... If you can't name comparable feats.. then concede the people I named are superior victims.. it's really that simple.
Ecth also because a very powerful High Elven lord in later writings. That is who he is now known by. Him killing of the balrogs and gothmog is very veyr impressive. Vastly mroe impressive than no feat wonders Sauron has killed.
You can try and say the Ungoliant thing isn't as impressive as I think and it wasn't that powerful but that just isn't so. You say it wasn't as powerful as Melkor... Odd since it caprtured Melkor was in the process of devouring him before the balrogs showed up. In order to capture somebody and be able to eat them and destroy them.. you have to be really powerful, and one might say, just as powerufl if not more so in order to be able to do that. If Melkor was more powerful why couldn't he do anything about it? Let's say he's more powerful by some degree.. it still took somebody uber powerful to be able to do tha tto him. yet, who came to his rescue? Certainly not that feeble politician look behind closed doors. WE know he wasn't the one to call when a battle victory was needed. The balrogs were called upon and they answered the call and freed Melkor. Where was Sauron? Yet again nowhere to be found when the going got tough. Just like in all the major battles where both were present... Gothmog was the one leading the charge and in charge not Sauron. He barely poked his head out when it was time for war.
You or moose said the Balrogs became mortal... WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN... POST THE REFERENCE TO THIS. I remember NOTHIGN about this is the Sil.. nothing at all. Balrogs are Maia.. just like Gandalf and Sauron. Just like them their spirts can and probably did remain. Shit, a balrog killed Gandalf but he was SENT BACK. he wasn't able to come back on his own he was sent back because only his spirit lived. I see no reason to believe the spirts of the balrogs are still aroudn just the same. So if you have any info otherwise.. post where they became mortal as some have claimed.
Nope. Anyone with half a brain can see it's a non-feat especially for sword play.
Nope. Once again this is the earliest version of the legendarium. Using it to give feats is nonsensical. Even funnier is your attempt to use slaying Gothmog as a great feat for Ecthelion to make Gothmog defeating Ecthlion an impressive feat.
What facts? You haven't posted any. I've had to correct you numerous times and posted passages from Tolkien's works.
You also have no feats for Fingon or Ecthelion other than fighting Gothmog...
Perhaps ypu should read my post, eh? I said "not the equal of Melkor in his prime" and she isn't. She defeated a vastly weaker Melkor who had already dispersed much of his power into Arda.
Once again, so what?
Uh, Gandalf was a very special case. Anyway, the Ainur's bodies were like "raiment" they could change it or remove it and put another one on. However, Morgoth and some of his servants lost this ability. So, like I said earlier, the Balrog's spirits likely remained but they no longer were capable of making bodies. Hence they were for all intents and purposes mortal.
Also KT, how can you use all of Gothmog's aided battles as worthwhile and maintain a straight face? The guy has fought almost no one alone and the one person he fought had already been fatally wounded and he still lost.
You surely would agree that Gothmog is a formidable foe and a powerful one.. being a Maia and the high captain of Melkor's army.. Clearly he's is powerful. So how is ecth killing him not more impressive? What's more.. how on earth can you laugh at that.. all the while.. knowing the people you listed have NO feats to their name.. let alone killing the leader of Melkor's army? That is exponentially better than any of the featless wonders you have named for Sauron.
you keep talking about the balrogs weren't this or that.. they were still powerful creatures and AGAIN more feats than the people you've named. Shit, he could've killed a couple of simple wolves and that would be more than what you have on your side. Even though wolves are powerful.. we at least have battle feats to count.. in your case you have diddly squat. Further, you do know that Balrogs were rectonned into being maia and powerful creatures. They want from being thousands of them to only being 8 or 9 of them ever. So with the recton ecth killing a few of them is BEASTLY.
NOW I'M ASKING YOU THIS SIMPLE QUESTION...
1. Is driving off Glaurung a feat at all?
if so, then the feat count for Fingon is 1 to 0 for your guys right?
2. Is killing balrogs a feat?
if so, then the feat count is at 1 - 0 for Ecth
3. Is killing the high captain Gothmog a feat?
If so, then that is 2 - 0 in the feat count when comparing it to your guys.
I would even go in feanor who alone is probably one of.. if not the greatest elven lord of all time. He shits all over any of thepeole you named.
You can say this person had help and that person had help for this feat... but what we're still left with is these guys have feats.. the guys you named DON'T. There is just no getting aroudn this fact. I'd rather have feats with help or circumstances than no feats at all. What's worse you're arguing blinding and using fallacy after fallacy to justify your position. You know the guys have no feats yet you go.. so.. we know they are kings of their house.. thus they must be powerful. Odd.. because the same is true for all the guys I listed except they DO have feats and were from a more powerful age.
So? Well so it proves that yet again when the going got tough for Melkor.. the balrogs were called upon.. not Sauron. His pansy ass was locked up and hiding from battle yet again. It's almost absurd to claim somebody is more powerful than the guy actually put in charge of the battles and leading them to victory.. while the person you claim is more powerful is no place to be found and not put in charge.
Odd you would say that when the people Ares named have NO FEATS to their name. yet with a straight face he's arguing how awesome it was for Sauron to beat them. yet, you have the nerve to ask me how I keep a straight face? The irony. I'm arguing using feats.. whether with help or without.. they still have feats.. the guys sauron has beaten have NONE. You do understand some is grearter than none right?
Then Elendil and Gil-Galad defeating Sauron is a feat as well...
My point is whatever they do in that story is useless. For all intents and purposes, the stories in TBoLT are non-canon.
It's not a feat as we have no clue what he did. For all we know who could simply have led the other elves and not even used a bow.
So nope, not a feat at all.
Not if it happens in "non-canon" stories like all those in BoLT.
So nope, not a feat at all.
Then Gil-Galad and Elendil have the feat of killing Sauron...
So 1-1 in the feat count.
It's also absurd. To prove Gothmog's foes are superior to Sauron's one of the 'feats' you use is defeating Gothmog... Circular logic FTW!
I'd agree. Sadly Gothmog had a whole gang of Balrogs and an army of Orcs helping him. So yeah, I'm not all that impressed.
Which is why I put Fingon at around the same level of Gil-Galad and Finrod. Because the all are from the line of Kings. Accurately comparing these characters is nigh impossible with their virtually non-existent feats (you haven't posted any feats yet) and requires looking toward their heritage and statements.
Also Finrod and Gil-Galad are both elves of the First Age.
I've already said this and even posted the passage, the Balrgos were not called upon! They came when they heard Morgoth scream.
This claim is asinine, yet you cling to it desperately. Morgoth also was not at the forefront leading the armies yet he is Gothmog's superior.
So what do we have:
1. Sauron outranks Gothmog
2. They have killed/defeated comparable foes but Sauron has done so on his own.
3. Sauron is touted as "the greatest" and "the most terrible" of Morgoth's servants
Seems pretty clear to anyone with half a brain that Sauron is more powerful.
I'm curious if you even know the story and have it right... Tell me how Elendil and Gil-Galad killed Sauron? I'm curious if you even have the story right.
Furhter, I won't even get into Huan killing Sauron at another point.. as once again he was easily beaten in battle by a wolf. A powerful wolf but he was still beaten.
Those stories aren't non canon at all. Post the source or Chris saying it's non canon. Until then, they are canon and greater than anything your guys have done.
Difference is... Melkor IS the leader and the one everybody is fighting for and trying to save on his side.. NOT SAURON. So it stands to reason that Melkor doesn't want to be killed so he lets other fight and be in charge of protecting him. Sauron isn't under that same vein. He isn't the leader.. Melkor is.. and thus he doesn't get to fall under thad same excuse. If you have ANY reference to Melkor not wanting Sauron to fight in battles to protect him POST IT. If not, that is just your speculation on the matter. What we DO KNOW is that Gothmog was in charge of the affaris of war and leading the battles NOT Sauron. If you have any reference to him being protected by Melkor and not wanting him to fight post it.
Also, I would like a reference to where Sauron was a higher rank than Gothmog.. I've read from various sources that they have the same rank but Gothmog is in charge of the battles being the high captain. Sauron being the no. 1 wizard and learned of the dark ways doesn't make him outrank gothmog when it comes to battle and formidability.
They haven't defeated comparable foes.. Feanor is beyond.. WELL beyond anythign from your side. So no, they aren't comparable. at all. I don't know why you keep saying they killed Sauron and then say he killed them.. which is why I'm asking for your clarification on the story in question above. Which is it cause I think you have it backwards. So again, no they aren't comparable. Feanor and Ecth are above anybody you named and easily
Also can I see any reference to Sauron being called a Captain or General or any such description. I've only seen him referred to as a Lieutenant.. which is below a Captain in militzry rank.. which as we know is exactly how things played out. Gothmog was leading the charge and killing elven lords.. Sauron was hiding out and waiting for the dust to clear.
Elendil and Gil-Galad kill Sauron but, in the process, are themselves slain.
Good. Because Saron was not killed by Huan. He was, however, defeated by Huan and Luthien.
I'm using common sense here. The other stories were compltely rewritten. Balrogs and Dragons were completely revamped. Hell, ever the elves were drastically changed. Ultimately, the source you are using is horribly outdated.
And once again, so what?
I posted it earlier. When Melkor wasn't around Sauron, not Gothmog, was put in charge of the war.
Feanor is. But once again he did it with an army of orcs and a gang of Balrogs. Not really impressive.
I'm still waiting for something impressive by sauron.. I mean really.. getting killed by an elven king and another king isn't really impressive. Big whoop.. he also killed them.. not impressive. I'd hoped you come up with something I didn't know about Sauron and his impressive battle feats.. sadly.. just as I thought.. they don't exist.
That was just one time he was killed... He was killed the time you mentioned... also killed by Huan... also killed by a great flood that wiped out most numoreans... finally sent back by frodo and golum. Just because his spirt is able to come back.. doesn't mean him getting shit on over and over again is impressive. Shit, a maiar in Gandalf couldn't beat a weaker Balrog than gothmog for days and days.. This was a weaker balrog than Gothmog and we know Maiar are above any man or elves who ahve killed Sauron.
Okay good they are canon then still despite you thinking they shouldn't be. You just need to treat them as a recton. They went from being thousands of them early on.. to being very few of them. So when Ecth stood against them... it was damn impressive.
So what? So what that Sauron was never seen when Morgoth needed them? You're right hat is just par for the course for somebody with such battle feats as Sauron. When the going go tough Sauron wasn't called upon in battle or to rescue Morgoth.. Gothmog and the balrogs did that job. You're right though... just another exactly of Sauron not being a great warrior.
Actually he wasn't in charge.. he was in charge as a president is in charge.. he oversaw things in a general sense.. but Gothmog was in charge of the army. I posted and you have yet to refute it.. Gothmog was called the HIGH CAPTAIN of angband.. Sauron only called a lieutenant of Angband. As we know... Captain outranks Lieutenant.
What we know is.. Gothmog's battle feats are superior to Sauron.. Gothmog has died less than Sauron and by a greater foe at that. Shit, gothmog outranks Sauron where morgoth had a fortress which gothmog was in charge of defending it and Morgoth. All this points to Gothmog being the superior warrior and Sauron the superior politician.
He wasn't killed by Huan. Had you read the Silmarillion you would know this.
By this same logic Durin's Bane is more powerful than Gothmog. Anyway, Gandalf the White straight up says Sauron is more powerful than him and they do contend in a battle of wills in which Sauron is superior.
How are they canon? They are from an entirely outdated part of the legendarium. As best they are ambiguously canon. (Ironically, Ecthelion isn't even the most powerful elf in the Fall of Gondolin, rather Rog is.)
Or Morgoth has better things to do than Sauron. And as I've said several times in this "debate" the Balrogs weren't called to save Morgoth.
He was in charge of the war. Hence he outranked Gothmog. Also real world ranks=/=fantasy ranks.
Nope. You haven't provided any canon evidence for any of your claims. He does not have superior "battle feats" nor is it ever stated he defended Angband.
Last edited by ares834 on Jan 2nd, 2014 at 07:14 PM
Only Gothmog's are more impressive and extensive. As much as you hate this fact.. doesn't mean it didn't happen. Let me know when you have ANYTHING impressive for Sauron compared to Gothmog. One is built for battle the other politics.. this is a vs. thread not an election.
You keep on holding on to the idea that just because Sauron was able to comeback from being killed that this means he wasn't killed. Nobody is talking about perma kill here we're talking about being beaten in battle. Sauron has been beaten and owned by Huan... Elendil and Gil-Galad... the great flood... Shit Golum owned him with ease. That is a piss poor record compared to Gothmog... Who killed probably the most powerful Elven Lord ever in Feanor... killed Ecth.. who again is above anybody Sauron has beaten.. and fingon is about equal to those you listed. Still though.. the clear edge on victories goes to Gothmog.
Good I'm glad you agree it's canon and you have no authority to say it's not. Balrogs of that story were rectonned thus making the Ecth feat even more impressive and shits all over anything Sauron has done.
Remind me when Sauron beat Sauron the WHITE in battle.
Youi can say whatever you want.. the point is The Balrogs stop Morgoth from dying from an uber powerful creature. It wasn' Sauron or morgoth himself was unable to do anything.. but the balrogs could and did. Just another thing exhibiting what Balrogs do.. they kick ass.. not hide in a fortress till the dust clears while they practice their magic.
Huh? Do you have any evidence Tolkien didn't know the ranking system of the military and were just using these titles with no clue what they meant. If you have ANY evidence that he didn't intend for them to follow what they normally mean then post it.. if not you have no leg to stand on and they mean just what they appear to mean. gothmog was a CAPTAIN... Sauron was a Lieutenant of angband. We all know which rank is higher and who was in charge of defending Morgoth and Angband.