No-one is saying an action crime noir wouldn't work (in any case, that's what they are trying with Luke Cage- which I also don't think will work, but only because I think the personality is boring, not the concept behind it; I'd still give it more of a chance than The Punisher). This is specifically about The Punisher as a lead character.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
It actually is on screen though. In season 1 Stick refers to the kid as Black Sky and kills him. In season 2 [SPOILER - highlight to read]: we see flashbacks that Stick discovered Elektra was a Black Sky as a child, kidnapped her, and tried to turn The Hand's greatest weapon (Black Sky) against them, but he couldn't control her and her bloodlust and she killed a Chaste trainee. Stick then kills another member of the Chaste in order to stop him from killing Elektra for what she's done and gives her to a rich family to conceal her identity and keep her safe for later use as his weapon against The Hand. Given that this flashback occurred far prior to the events in season 1, and prior to [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Stick sending a teen to 20-something Elektra on the mission to corrupt Matt and make him a killer in college, and that failing as well it's a very simple deduction that Stick was all about keeping a Black Sky out of the hands of, well, The Hand, and he just killed the new one. Also, Stick even states that [SPOILER - highlight to read]: The Hand have used Black Sky in the past. Elektra was never the only Black Sky. It's just a title given to the Hand's living weapon.
Sorry, but I have to disagree outright with what you just said. Your speculation about what the Black Sky is is, literally, NOT on-screen. [SPOILER - highlight to read]: S2 constantly refers to Elektra as THE Black sky, definitive, the one they have been waiting for. You're trying to reconcile that, but that's not actually in there.
I mean, Matt doesn't even ask "What do you mean? You killed that already."
Incidentally, you are mis-remembering; Stick says [SPOILER - highlight to read]: they've never activated one before.
I am fairly sure your broad idea is correct here and that Black Skies are multiples as in S1. But anyone watching S2 wouldn't get that because they totally mess up how they refer to it. It really feels like they forgot the S1 bit entirely. We shouldn't have to speculate to reconcile it all.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 05:36 PM
It is though. Stick details it when [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Elektra was healing up in his bed and he told Matt the history of The Hand and the Black Sky, and how it led to the first member of the Chaste standing up to them and gathering other warriors to combat them. The Hand had historically utilized Black Skies, but the most recent Black Sky (The Bald Kid) was killed. Elektra was a previous Black Sky before the Bald Kid that Stick kidnapped and tried to make a weapon for the Chaste.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: If you've watched both seasons it makes perfect sense. The real issue is the term "Black Sky" makes it seem a singular rather than a plurality. Nobu referred to the child as Black Sky. Stick referred to the Kid as Black Sky. The Kid was Black Sky. But Black Sky isn't one person, it's a trait. It's a mystical bloodlust that some people exhibit, and the ones that have it The Hand makes into immortal super ninjas.
No, again, you are mis-remembering. He specifically says what I said- they have never activated it before.
Nobu then calls [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Elektra THE Black Sky. No reference is made to anything from S1. It looks absolutely singular and definitive. It's presented as a one-off.
I mean, your final sentence there is entirely stuff you are saying and not in the series at all.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
Go back and look at your final sentence again. None of it is in the series. The final half can't even be true, as they've never used one before but they already have that power. [SPOILER - highlight to read]: It's not Black Sky that makes them immortal- they were already immortal before they started searching for it.
I like to give it one day per episode, so call it two weeks.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 05:47 PM
I've read my sentence. I think out my responses. [SPOILER - highlight to read]: The Hand utilize the people with the bloodlust as weapons. The ritual they were performing was to infuse a person with the bloodlust with immortality. However, being immortal in of itself doesn't make you Black Sky. Having the bloodlust does, and there's been several people who have had this magic bloodlust. The Chaste simply kills them before they can be made immortal until Stick, in contemporary times, decided to kidnap one (Elektra) and turn it against The Hand. It's all right there in the show.
All that stuff about bloodlust is speculative- they don't specify that on the show. All that talk about immortality coming from it is speculative. That's not in the show. I don;t know how else I can put it. It's literally not there. Those were the two things in your sentence. Neither come from the show.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
No, it's not. [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Stick and Elektra both make references to Elektra being something else, and Stick refers to her as a 'thing'. Even in the flashback the black Chaste member made reference to it and how she couldn't be controlled and needed to be put down. As a child she was Black Sky. That's why Stick kidnapped her from The Hand. The sarcophagus with the kanji symbol on it that all of the children had their blood drained into was part of the ritual that was going to turn Elektra (or the Kid that Stick killed in Season 1) immortal. It's likely going to be used to resurrect Elektra and Nobu.
Also, Stick[SPOILER - highlight to read]: tells the tale about The Hand being founded by a group of marauding warriors that discovered the secret of immortality, killed their master, and formed The Hand to Matt. That was the treasure that founded The Hand. In the comics it's The Beast.
You;re making this quite difficult by saying a lot of things that are not relevant to what I am saying. I know what happened in the show- I watched it. But what you are saying these things are and do- that was not in the show. You still haven't really engaged with any of the points I made about how it was made to seem very definitive and unique in S2.
Consider what 'The' means, for a start.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: Nobu is already immortal, I feel the need to point out again. So that's nothing to do with the BS.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 06:06 PM
I actually have, though, you're simply not accepting my explanation and you're presupposing that your interpretation of what occurred in the show is the only one, which this conversation clearly shows isn't the case. If you take into account all of what was said regarding Black Sky in Season 1 & 2, and take into account that in Season 1 the Kid Stick kills was "Black Sky" and that in Season 2 [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Stick says there were previous Black Skies which weren't activated and that Elektra is also Black Sky it's not that hard. It's not even a contradiction. The issue is that the term "Black Sky" isn't a plurality when in the context of the show it's stated, and shown, on several occasion that it's not a singular thing.
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Nobu[SPOILER - highlight to read]: was killed and resurrected by The Hand, likely in the sarcophagus. Being resurrected doesn't make you Black Sky. Immortality is what the Hand discovered. The magic bloodlust does. The urge to kill that is inside Elektra is mystical in nature and makes her a Black Sky. It's possible that they'll simply use it as a connection to The Beast as it is in comics if it's fleshed out more, but in the show [SPOILER - highlight to read]: the uncontrollable murderous bloodlust is the trait of Black Sky.
Again, you are spending a lot of time just repeating stuff already said or not relevant. Your accusation that I am simply not accepting your explanation is not at all true- I am rejecting it on the grounds that it is stuff you are saying in your own right and not in the series. All I can do is refer you back to my posts.
You keep on saying things that are not true! Now you have another one, saying that [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Nobu was resurrected by the sarcophagus. when we directly see on screen that that is not the case- he's just fine without it. You spent a while saying [SPOILER - highlight to read]: the Hand discovered immortality . I know that! That's what I was telling you to refute a mistake you made earlier. You then say [SPOILER - highlight to read]: being resurrected doesn't make you Black Sky What in the heck does that have to do with anything I was saying? That's much more what YOU were saying earlier, not me, so you are contradicting yourself.
You put words into people's mouths and conflate things with other things. In fact, I don't think you even understand the nature of my complaint; of the clear thematic discontinuity between the Black Sky concept in the two series. In s1, they talk about the kid being A Black Sky and that it will be hard, but not impossible, to find another. In S2, they completely change the nature of how the BS is perceived, seeing it as [SPOILER - highlight to read]: a definite one-off thing that has never been used before, that Elektra is THE Black Sky and has finally been found. I was saying that contradiction is confused and not good storytelling. The amount of stuff you have had to make it to make it work actually shows I am right.
My accusation is that they forgot their continuity and presented the BS in a way in S2 inconsistent with S1. Any way you slice it, you can only reconcile it by saying the S2 presentation was wrong in certain respects. There can't be a THE if there is more than one. Bit the whole of S2 treats it like a THE.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
It can be [SPOILER - highlight to read]: THE Black Sky if Elektra is the only current Black Sky. Just like if I was THE heavyweight champion of the world, it wouldn't mean that there's never been any others before me.
I think a Punisher show could work, but it would need at least a few things to go right. It would need a Karen Paige type character definitely, a moral opposite to Castle to be a voice that challenges him. You can't just have 13 episodes of brutality either, otherwise it loses its impact.
You'd also have to worry about what I felt Jessica Jones fell victim too, which is becoming a side character in their own show where other characters had better arcs and, at times, were better written than she was and avoided become a trope or cliché.
Bernthal has it in him to do a really good job in the main role, but he needs a good supporting cast; even more than Daredevil does imo.
In theory yes, though I really don't think that is the case, as it don't think S1 meant to imply there were only two left and Stick killed one.
But it doesn't matter anyway because it wasn't just the use of the word 'The', it was every conversation and discussion about it made [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Elektra seem the unique one they had been waiting for.
It's just odd because it would have taken all of two seconds to tie it into S1 and say that Elektra is one of several potentials.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 10:04 PM
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