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Reading Superman comics
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Rao Kal El
DJ FrostByte

Gender: Male
Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus

Reading Superman comics

Having this little discussion with Bluewater about reading Superman titles vs reading characters like Wonder Woman who don't appear aappears many times as Superman in comics


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Old Post Jul 28th, 2015 12:28 AM
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bluewaterrider
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Nobody will know what you're talking about without context.

Indeed, we ourselves would forget before long.

Since you took the first step by making this thread, however, I'll simply take the next logical step and provide the discussion from that other thread here so we can give this thread a decent starting framework ...


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El

It is easier to follow/read the adventures of a hero who appears only once a month on a comic ( maybe twice if he/she is popular) than to follow and read all the feats and adventures of heroes like Superman, Batman or Spiderman.

I mean this heroes appear in 5 or 6 comics a month regularly.
Superman on the 90's IIRC was on 7 comics a month with out counting guest appearances.

Fans of Superman can barely keep track of all his adventures when they read ALL of his publications.




Okay.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I believe that reading or being informed on a character that only appears once a month a comic is way easier than to keep track of Superman, batman or spiderman.

With the amount of comics it will take you to follow all the stories of superman, batman or Spiderman in a month you could read thor, silver surfer, hulk, avengers , wonder woman and still have a book to spare.



Okay.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El

We have those guys who read a lot of superman telling us what he might or might no be able to do.



Okay.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Then we have the detractors who apparently only read superman scans posted on sites like this one and try to make and argument based on ignorance. (I remember one time I had a person saying that red sun radiation hurts kryptonians imagine his surprise when he found out that kryptonians used to live under a red sun but the things people will say in order to defend their argument of ignorance is amusing)




Okay!

Old Post Jul 28th, 2015 11:19 AM
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riv6672
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There's really no argument in that keeping track of one to two titles is easier.

In terms of sites like this though, and i've seen it as recently as last week, its a "character A has more feats, he wins. Period." So, quantity over quality?
Characters that have been around longer over newer characters by default?
I leave that to you guys to figure out.


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Old Post Jul 28th, 2015 11:30 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I guess you will agree that following the feats of WW it will be easier than following the feats of Superman or Batman
so "nearly equally" is a tad bit too exaggerated by a rate of 6/2




No.

Because there are several problems with your reasoning.

I'll cover just two for now in the interest of time.
(I'll give more later if time permits and/or you respond to this post.)

The first problem with your reasoning is that you seem to be subscribing to the fallacy that, because Superman has more published adventures than anyone else, he has more feats than anyone else, and THEREFORE, on a forum where feats carry a great deal of weight, Superman should automatically win.

This does not work. I think you would agree that, due to his long history, Superman has more adventures and feats on the printed page than, say, Marvel Comics' Odin.

Would that mean, then, that, if Superman and Odin fought, Superman should win?


Another problem with your line of reasoning is assuming that all of these extra adventures Superman has per month grants Superman feats that are actually USEFUL to a fight discussion. Will Superman thwarting a bank robbery by goading a robber into shooting his chest until he runs out of bullets be useful in determining how well Superman would handle a near-infinite mass punch from a fighting mad Wally West Flash? An enraged World War Hulk? Captain Marvel, after Cap has absorbed the energies of Black Adam to go with his own?

Old Post Jul 28th, 2015 11:33 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El

All I am saying that building a case against a character who only appears once a month is way easier than vs someone who appears 7 times a month. The character with 7 appearances a month has so many feats that is almost impossible for you to know what he can or can't do, yet detractors often express their opinions as facts as if they knew the character and have read all his/her stories.


Acknowledged.


Still disagree.


Reasons?

One, for whatever reason, people DON'T seem to know much about the non-Superman character they are debating against.
I originally responded, for instance, because I noticed a comment someone made about Superman's blood shattering Diana's weapon, stating this as if Supes could do this at any time against Wonder Woman's standard forum gear.

He can't. The showing they were talking about is a scene in "For Tomorrow". You will discover, if you read the series, or even my post from a few pages back, that the weapon is not Diana's but a witch's named Halcyon. It is, unlike Diana's own standard forum gear, magically sharp, but NOT magically durable. People envisioning Diana's own gear proving ineffective because of what they think they remember in THAT story, need to have another thought coming.

I would have to say, while on that point, whether there is a necessary correlation or not, it really does seem that the more well-read people are concerning Superman, the less well-read they seem to be about other characters, at least as far as battle worthy details like that are concerned.

It would make sense: there are only so many hours in the day FOR free-time reading. If you devote that time almost exclusively to character X, there's not a lot left over for learning about character Y, is there?

Old Post Jul 28th, 2015 11:40 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El

All I am saying that building a case against a character who only appears once a month is way easier than vs someone who appears 7 times a month. The character with 7 appearances a month has so many feats that is almost impossible for you to know what he can or can't do, yet detractors often express their opinions as facts as if they knew the character and have read all his/her stories.


Disagree for two more reasons.

One is that your words above ("once a month") imply that the primary or most valid way to determine what a character can do, is to examine what they do in their own title, virtually to the exclusion of others. For Wonder Woman, this equates to EXTREME handicapping, namely because nearly ALL her famous and best showings, occur in OTHER titles, not her own.

Note that Wonder Woman stopping mountain-sized rocks, or facing down a team busting opponent like Amazo, or deflecting Darkseid's lethal omega beams, or using her physical strength to help restore Earth to proper orbit is something distinctly alien to her own title. Her own writers, pre-Flashpoint, at least, simply do not give her such feats in the Wonder Woman magazine.

Whatever story they had to tell had no need for such things, or if they did, still weren't provided.
Does that mean Diana is incapable of such then? Or does it simply mean that a researcher has to cast his or her net wider than they might first think?

Old Post Jul 28th, 2015 11:44 AM
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bluewaterrider
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The second thing, or, perhaps more accurately, part B of reason 2 ...



is that there is only so much material that can be published by different authors with only loose editorship, before "fact" about fictional characters begin to contradict each other.

As Area Vet noted in less than tactful terms, you yourself know quite a bit about Superman, and appear to have one of the largest collections on him on KMC. Doubtless you possess knowledge that the average person, and perhaps even DC's own writers, would consider obscure.

For instance, in a previous discussion in some long ago thread, you told me that Superman has, at least in some periods of the pre-Flashpoint, a mental instability that causes his body to process sunlight LESS efficiently than it might another Kryptonian. In other words, he subconsciously "blocks" his own power, to the point that, even in full sunlight, he can and has proven as "powerless" as an average human. This would occur very noticeably after the Infinite Crisis series, an event that took place long after most of the fights we've been discussing in this thread.

What would that mean in a versus scenario, though?
Have you gained anything by saying "My character is weaker than he could be!" "Just imagine if he WEREN'T sort of mental ..." ?

Old Post Jul 28th, 2015 11:45 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I know you are not saying this directly but you are implying that is easier to read 500 comics to follow one character and be versed on a single character than to read 3500 comics to do the same?

Because come on, reading through 500 comics is way easier than to read through 3500.

As for the rest, people usually estate opinions even if they are ill informed, but it will be easier for me to inform me on a character that has only 500 comics than on one that has 3500 comics. if I read only 250 of one character that means I know 50% of his history and I am somewhat informed on the character, on the other hand if I only read 250 comics of the character that has 3500 comics I only know 14% about that character.

Knowing 50% of one characters history makes me at least somewhat informed, knowing only 14% of a character history?... Maybe I should inform myself a little bit better before talking about a topic to which I only know 14% of it.

That is my take on it anyway.

Old Post Jul 28th, 2015 11:50 AM
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Prof. T.C McAbe
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It's harder to keep track of someone who appeares x-times a month compared to someone who appeares x-times a year.

It's easier to lowball someone who appears x-times a month.

A character who appears x-time a month will have more problems staying consistent due to differen't writers.

It's way easier to highball a fresh character or a char that appears x-times a year. See Rulk in the beginning.


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Old Post Jul 28th, 2015 05:50 PM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El

I know you are not saying this directly but you are implying that is easier to read 500 comics to follow one character and be versed on a single character than to read 3500 comics to do the same?

Because come on, reading through 500 comics is way easier than to read through 3500.




No real disagreement between us to be found in the 2 sentences above ...





quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El

As for the rest, people usually estate opinions even if they are ill informed, but it will be easier for me to inform me on a character that has only 500 comics than on one that has 3500 comics. if I read only 250 of one character that means I know 50% of his history and I am somewhat informed on the character, on the other hand if I only read 250 comics of the character that has 3500 comics I only know 14% about that character.

Knowing 50% of one characters history makes me at least somewhat informed, knowing only 14% of a character history?... Maybe I should inform myself a little bit better before talking about a topic to which I only know 14% of it.

That is my take on it anyway.


I acknowledge that this is your take on things. Obviously, though, I do NOT share your view, else we would not be having this discussion.

For starters, it's unrealistic to think most forum participants could be expected to, or even SHOULD be expected to do THAT much reading before having a discussion.

Yes, people should have at least some background knowledge, yes, people should know what they are talking about, or at least should earnestly believe they do. But there's a range of knowledge that makes a person's view genuinely valid. It's not 100% or bust.
We could never discuss ANYTHING if that were true.

Then again, I consider the matter of informing people a task done as a matter of course. In your own way, you do too, though you're more compartmentalized. What I mean is that you like to have things in clearly defined places. Educating people, for instance, is done by you in Respect Threads. You'll DO it in other threads, I'm well aware, but that's obviously not your preference.
Much the same holds for side discussion. You don't like it in main threads even when relevant and related. Proof? This very thread.
It's a little different for me. I believe in addressing questions or disagreements on the spot, IF relevant and appropriate.

The other thing, though, is the reality that, AGAIN,
everything published in Superman comics in the past 3 decades is NOT necessarily relevant or useful in a specific proposed fight scenario.

You don't need to know that Superman's favorite color is blue, for instance, in figuring out how he'd fare against Captain Marvel. If Action Comics #543 contains that information and I don't know about, so what?

More informed is not always better informed for specialized discussions.

Your arguments need more concrete grounding.

Old Post Jul 28th, 2015 08:12 PM
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bluewaterrider
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Just to be sure I've got my bases covered, I should say that, though it might not help to know Superman's favorite color is blue when fighting Captain Marvel, it might be useful to know, if, under specific circumstances, the color red sets Clark off into an uncontrollable Hulk-like rage where he throws 180 degree haymaker punches to anyone wearing that hue.

People arguing for Billy will want to insist he change his outfit in a HURRY if that's the case ...

Old Post Jul 28th, 2015 08:18 PM
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riv6672
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quote:
The first problem with your reasoning is that you seem to be subscribing to the fallacy that, because Superman has more published adventures than anyone else, he has more feats than anyone else, and THEREFORE, on a forum where feats carry a great deal of weight, Superman should automatically win.

Yeah, thats what i said gosh darn it!


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Old Post Jul 28th, 2015 08:42 PM
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Your reading them upside down again.


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Old Post Jul 29th, 2015 02:47 PM
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Rao Kal El
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I guess you will agree that following the feats of WW it will be easier than following the feats of Superman or Batman so "nearly equally" is a tad bit to exagerated by a rate of 6/2


quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
No.

Because there are several problems with your reasoning.

I'll cover just two for now in the interest of time.
(I'll give more later if time permits and/or you respond to this post.)

The first problem with your reasoning is that you seem to be subscribing to the fallacy that, because Superman has more published adventures than anyone else, he has more feats than anyone else, and THEREFORE, on a forum where feats carry a great deal of weight, Superman should automatically win.

This does not work. I think you would agree that, due to his long history, Superman has more adventures and feats on the printed page than, say, Marvel Comics' Odin.

Would that mean, then, that, if Superman and Odin fought, Superman should win?


I actually I don't know where did I ever said that just because Superman has more comics, he should win? I NEVER SAID THAT. I said he has more comics and he is more difficult to track than other characters


quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Another problem with your line of reasoning is assuming that all of these extra adventures Superman has per month grants Superman feats that are actually USEFUL to a fight discussion. Will Superman thwarting a bank robbery by goading a robber into shooting his chest until he runs out of bullets be useful in determining how well Superman would handle a near-infinite mass punch from a fighting mad Wally West Flash? An enraged World War Hulk? Captain Marvel, after Cap has absorbed the energies of Black Adam to go with his own?


Bullets bouncing off his chest are... at least to me USELESS feats, come on! Bullets bouncing out of his chest will be a useful feat for THOR (funy enough thor has those "feats" on his respect tread) I am talking about usefull feats and canon facts that people are not even aware of.

Like people claiming that Superman's molecular structure can be rearanged easily and in large quantities based on Silver Surfer affecting a deer molecularly, that is just ridiculuos as if the a deer will be as resistent as Superman.

Facts like not knowing that Superman can mental block himself, facts like kryptonite that is not from his respective universe will do squat on him

Those are the useful feats and fact, bullets bouncing off his chest, that is funny. smile


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Last edited by Rao Kal El on Jul 29th, 2015 at 10:52 PM

Old Post Jul 29th, 2015 10:48 PM
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Rao Kal El
DJ FrostByte

Gender: Male
Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El

All I am saying that building a case against a character who only appears once a month is way easier than vs someone who appears 7 times a month. The character with 7 appearances a month has so many feats that is almost impossible for you to know what he can or can't do, yet detractors often express their opinions as facts as if they knew the character and have read all his/her stories.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Acknowledged.


Still disagree.


I honestly don't know how is it that you are disagreeing that is easier to follow a character with few apparitions than a charatcer with lots of apparitions, but lets keep going.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Reasons?

One, for whatever reason, people DON'T seem to know much about the non-Superman character they are debating against.
I originally responded, for instance, because I noticed a comment someone made about Superman's blood shattering Diana's weapon, stating this as if Supes could do this at any time against Wonder Woman's standard forum gear.

He can't. The showing they were talking about is a scene in "For Tomorrow". You will discover, if you read the series, or even my post from a few pages back, that the weapon is not Diana's but a witch's named Halcyon. It is, unlike Diana's own standard forum gear, magically sharp, but NOT magically durable. People envisioning Diana's own gear proving ineffective because of what they think they remember in THAT story, need to have another thought coming.


I will put this in percentages. Superman appeared on 7 publications:

Superman, Action Comics, Adventures of Superman, Man of Steel, Man of Tomorrow, JLA and Superman/Batman

If you read all of those comics that means you read 99% of Superman comics regulaly (excluding guest appearances on other tittles)
So you are basically 99% versed on Superman comics.

Wonder Woman appeared on 2 publications:

Wonder Woman and JLA

If you read all those comics that means you read 99% of Wonder Woman comics regularly (excluding guest appearances on other tittles)
So you are basically 99% versed on Wonder Woman comics.

BUT Lets inverse the roles here

The Superman fan since he reads JLA titles too he is versed on 49.5% of Wonder Woman appearances
The Wonder Woman fan since he reads JLA tittles too he is versed on 14% of Superman appearances

So the Superman fan has a 99% knowledge of Superman and a 49.5% knowledge of Wonder Woman
The Wonder Woman fan has a 99% knowledge of Wonder Woman and a 14% knowledge of Superman

Who do you think should know more?

The answer is not even debatable, the Superman fan has and advantage of knowledge of Superman of 85% and he is versed 50% on Wonder Woman.

The only way this will change, is if The WW fan will take sometime and inform himself on Superman comics before constructing arguments of ignorance or ill informed or at least he can't lets us know that he is ill informed on Superman. The same applies to the Superman fan, but he is at least better informed on the WW topic.

As for the gear of WW, I think is good that people like you who follow WW inform everybody of those details and btw I never thought that the sword shown on tomorrow is part of her standard gear. I know that because I read Superman comics and JLA comics.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I would have to say, while on that point, whether there is a necessary correlation or not, it really does seem that the more well-read people are concerning Superman, the less well-read they seem to be about other characters, at least as far as battle worthy details like that are concerned.

It would make sense: there are only so many hours in the day FOR free-time reading. If you devote that time almost exclusively to character X, there's not a lot left over for learning about character Y, is there?


I think you are wrong just by the simple percentages I showed you above, Reading JLA gives us access to 49% of characters like Aquaman, WW, MMH, Flash while WW readers only access 14% of characters like Superman or Batman.

btw I used to read a lot of all the Superman, Batman, Hulk, Punisher and Spiderman tittles backed up by JLA, Xmen classic and Avengers so that gives you a general idea.


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Thank You Prof. T.C McAbe, You are Superman!

Old Post Jul 29th, 2015 11:25 PM
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Rao Kal El
DJ FrostByte

Gender: Male
Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Disagree for two more reasons.

One is that your words above ("once a month") imply that the primary or most valid way to determine what a character can do, is to examine what they do in their own title, virtually to the exclusion of others. For Wonder Woman, this equates to EXTREME handicapping, namely because nearly ALL her famous and best showings, occur in OTHER titles, not her own.

Note that Wonder Woman stopping mountain-sized rocks, or facing down a team busting opponent like Amazo, or deflecting Darkseid's lethal omega beams, or using her physical strength to help restore Earth to proper orbit is something distinctly alien to her own title. Her own writers, pre-Flashpoint, at least, simply do not give her such feats in the Wonder Woman magazine.

Whatever story they had to tell had no need for such things, or if they did, still weren't provided.
Does that mean Diana is incapable of such then? Or does it simply mean that a researcher has to cast his or her net wider than they might first think?


I never said nor imply that own tittles are primary or most valid, but since you are touching the subject lets see, what happens to Superman in order to favor or make the other characters shine.

Superman has his good and also great feats on JLA Tittles, He held a black hole on his hand, one shoted casually primaid and a bunch of others, though on his own titles he has those type of feats too, cooling down a white dwarf star, one shoting imperex probes and a bunch of others.

While Superman performs really good on his titles, he is often excluded, dumbed down or made to look less formidable on the JLA comics in order to make the other characers shine a little bit, clear example is Grant Morrison's bat God, but is not only exclusive of Batman, they also have to make the other members of the team relevant, we are not reading PC comics anymore in which JLA members were basically useless and WW was serving coffee. so they decide to make the other team members relevant often at expense of Superman, but you know why? because an enemy that can take Superman is a dangerous enemy to defeat the whole league. A character that can defeat WW does not sound as fearsome as a character that can defeat Superman TBH

While WW and others benefit from this post crisis DC mentality, Superman has to take a secondary role in order to let the others shine.

This also reminded me, How DC often leaves Superman out of the company crossovers.

So is funny you mention those feats for WW because they actually sacrifice Superman in order to give her those feats, that she REGULARLY does not get on her own book.
At least Superman has plenty to get from his books and once in a while he gets a worthy feat out of JLA comic books with out sacrificing other characters.


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Thank You Prof. T.C McAbe, You are Superman!

Last edited by Rao Kal El on Jul 29th, 2015 at 11:47 PM

Old Post Jul 29th, 2015 11:44 PM
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Rao Kal El
DJ FrostByte

Gender: Male
Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The second thing, or, perhaps more accurately, part B of reason 2 ...



is that there is only so much material that can be published by different authors with only loose editorship, before "fact" about fictional characters begin to contradict each other.

As Area Vet noted in less than tactful terms, you yourself know quite a bit about Superman, and appear to have one of the largest collections on him on KMC. Doubtless you possess knowledge that the average person, and perhaps even DC's own writers, would consider obscure.

For instance, in a previous discussion in some long ago thread, you told me that Superman has, at least in some periods of the pre-Flashpoint, a mental instability that causes his body to process sunlight LESS efficiently than it might another Kryptonian. In other words, he subconsciously "blocks" his own power, to the point that, even in full sunlight, he can and has proven as "powerless" as an average human. This would occur very noticeably after the Infinite Crisis series, an event that took place long after most of the fights we've been discussing in this thread.

What would that mean in a versus scenario, though?
Have you gained anything by saying "My character is weaker than he could be!" "Just imagine if he WEREN'T sort of mental ..." ?


How is that usefull on a VS scenarion? VS Scenario dictates peak capabilities. It is said that He process and retains sunlight based on his stress level, peak capability in a vs scenario it means basically that you are facing OWAW Superman in each fight.

That is how it is relevant


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Old Post Jul 29th, 2015 11:51 PM
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Rao Kal El
DJ FrostByte

Gender: Male
Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
No real disagreement between us to be found in the 2 sentences above ...

I acknowledge that this is your take on things. Obviously, though, I do NOT share your view, else we would not be having this discussion.

For starters, it's unrealistic to think most forum participants could be expected to, or even SHOULD be expected to do THAT much reading before having a discussion.

Yes, people should have at least some background knowledge, yes, people should know what they are talking about, or at least should earnestly believe they do. But there's a range of knowledge that makes a person's view genuinely valid. It's not 100% or bust.
We could never discuss ANYTHING if that were true.

Then again, I consider the matter of informing people a task done as a matter of course. In your own way, you do too, though you're more compartmentalized. What I mean is that you like to have things in clearly defined places. Educating people, for instance, is done by you in Respect Threads. You'll DO it in other threads, I'm well aware, but that's obviously not your preference.
Much the same holds for side discussion. You don't like it in main threads even when relevant and related. Proof? This very thread.
It's a little different for me. I believe in addressing questions or disagreements on the spot, IF relevant and appropriate.

The other thing, though, is the reality that, AGAIN,
everything published in Superman comics in the past 3 decades is NOT necessarily relevant or useful in a specific proposed fight scenario.

You don't need to know that Superman's favorite color is blue, for instance, in figuring out how he'd fare against Captain Marvel. If Action Comics #543 contains that information and I don't know about, so what?

More informed is not always better informed for specialized discussions.

Your arguments need more concrete grounding.


I think there are ways to have a discussion. When someone who does not know about a topic gets proven wrong he or she should acknowledge that they didn't know that, but that is not the case, they just keep moving the goal post and keep using their argument of ignorance even though they have been proven wrong, they dismiss evidence or plain ignore it and keep their arguments based on RARE showings of Superman as the known all that there is to know about Superman like for example thinking that WW is stronger than Superman based on 15% of his showings and ignoring the other 85%

That is what I meant not about his favorite color don't be silly.

Also while I agree that even ignorant people should express their opinion, they should be humble enough to not act as if they know everything about the character based on a forum debate (not you, I mean Bluevet) there is that.

Oh and I didn't think this was relevant to the other thread as WW was not involved on it. I think PR or Bada will eventually point that out

BTW Did you knew that Dan Jurgens had Gladiator and Thor strugling to save/lift a passanger plane while Superman did the same feat under the same writter only with his breath?


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Thank You Prof. T.C McAbe, You are Superman!

Last edited by Rao Kal El on Jul 30th, 2015 at 12:28 AM

Old Post Jul 30th, 2015 12:21 AM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Did you know that Dan Jurgens had Gladiator and Thor struggling to save/lift a passenger plane while Superman did the same feat under the same writer only with his breath?



Superbreath is arguably the most wildly inconsistent power in comics.

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if Jurgens or almost any other writer did have a character do what you claim.

Almost the moment I read this, for instance, I thought back to Peter David's "Hail Kara" arc, the final issues, until Loeb's unexpected reboot years later, of the Supergirl magazine.

Many Happy Returns #80. Features, supposedly, the original Kara Zor-el.
Brought back ... well, because Peter David wanted to bring Kara Zor-el back. It was his final attempt to boost flagging sales and save the magazine from cancellation.

Anyway it's notable because it has Kara Zor-el, the Silver Age Supergirl, going up against some demon or demon-like being named Xenon.

Note how ineffective Kara is confronting the demon in this encounter, which leads to her subduing and capture, when going after him with a flying rush and heat vision ...

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Old Post Jul 30th, 2015 05:34 PM
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bluewaterrider
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... then notice the remarkable success a simple exhalation has:

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Old Post Jul 30th, 2015 05:35 PM
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