Registered: Nov 2004
Location: With Cinderella and the 9 Dwarves
At any rate, while maybe not great for a fantastic story, as a plan having redundancy is not a bad move. If either one of them fails, the other could still land a major blow to them.
However, Luke didn't even go with the intention of killing the Emperor anyways...so...
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
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I do wish you'd read my posts- this isn't about Luke being in ROTJ at all, it's about the difference he made by going to the Death Star- and indeed, the ultimate ending of the entire Chosen One storyline. Luke going there should have been the big move that made all the difference- as it is, from what we see on-screen, it was irrelevant to the battle.
And it's a shame, because in terms of the character drama, Luke on the Death Star is pretty much the best part of ROTJ.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
Meh but that was never really the point. Luke says to the Emperor "soon I'll be dead, and you with me" - its pretty clear from that line that Luke isn't expecting to have any impact on the battle, heck Luke wasn't even expecting to be brought before the Emperor.
So what was the point? The point was that to become a Jedi Knight Luke had to confront Vader, his father, and he did that, resisted the dark side and redeemed him.
Seems like a pretty significant victory for me, it doesn't really matter that it wasn't one for the Rebels.
That said we know from the EU that Palpatine was using his battle meditation to bolster his forces, and once that was broken they fell into disarray. And though that isn't made clear in the film, I always felt that this spiritual victory over the Emperor could be taken literally i.e. the Empire's spirit was broken.
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
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Well now you are indulging in shifting the goalposts. My original point is that Luke/Anakin killing the Emperor is made irrelevant by the fact that the Rebels won anyway and the Emperor didn't have a chance.
Then Darth Thor started saying specifically that the Rebels would not have destroyed the Death Star without Luke- I was refuting that point specifically. Don't go pretending that that was my entire point.
Yes, it's good character drama, but that's not really meant to be the entire point- it's meant to be the culmination of the entire storyline, the whole 'Only a fully trained Jedi can destroy the Emperor and save the galaxy' thing- and it goes wrong because the necessity of Luke/Anakin doing that is ruined in context.
And obviously the EU is irrelevant to the film design. There is no connection at all between the Emperor's death and the Imperial defeat except one you make up in your head. Again, you are having to speculate, and it should be clear.
Like I say, it's an issue caused by script re-drafting (originally, the Rebels were nowhere near the Emperor in the first place; Luke HAD to go to confront him*), and there was a similar issue in TPM. To bring this back to The Force Awakens- it stands accused of being too derivative, but it is entirely logical and coherent throughout (in terms of its moment-to-moment plot, if nots its background). I'd far rather something derivative with a properly functioning plot than something original where the drama is contradictory and muddled.
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* Of course, I know WHY they changed that- it meant ROTJ ended up with two completely different stories, and it was bad enough that way already, as the first half hour has to go on the Han Solo rescue. But they forgot to change the stakes accordingly- and more broadly, they actually had the solution backwards. They should have moved all the action to the capital and dumped the new Death Star. A rebel attack on the capital whilst Luke goes planetside to take down the Emperor would have been a great finish. But GL had been fixated on having the wookies fight the Empire... and then wookies became ewoks and... meh...
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 02:52 PM
Registered: Mar 2013
Location: in your mind, rent free
i didnt mind that, really. for one, it gave the non-jedi a way to be useful and heroic without luke leading the pack and doing all the heavy lifting. also it added to the gloom&doom setting in palpatine's throne room....the fact that they were completely isolated from the actions in space and on endor, and all luke could do was look on helplessly. imho it only added to the tension and utter hopelessness of luke's predicament, and made his almost-turn to the darkside that much more convincing.
also, it's quickly confirmed in ep6 that luke isn't nearly as sure and confident in his objective/abilities as he led others to believe, and toward the end he pretty much confessed that he was likely on a suicide mission. "Soon I'll be dead, and you with me". hardly the outcome yoda and ben were training him for. "pass on what you have learned". so basically his mission was, as far as i can see: "bring my father home...or screw it all, sith wins". that strikes me as dismal and reckless, not wise and selfless.
sure, luke didnt hope to face the emporer, due to his naive hope that vader would leave with him when he confronted him at the endor base. however, he knew that there was a strong probability that vader would do exactly what he did, and if so, the emperor would finally succeed in eradicating the jedi.
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Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.
Last edited by Bashar Teg on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 02:46 PM
Registered: Mar 2013
Location: in your mind, rent free
i wasnt really countering points in your argument, just saying that i was never bugged by luke's lack of influence in the events outside the throne room, nor by his hopeless and reckless non-jedi-like plan. you seem to think it took something away from the story where i believe it enhanced it.
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Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.
Luke was only there to resolve the family issue with Vader. It is, after all, all about family.
Yup, Lucas and changing his mind. That's is when the trouble began. Once he started down the dark path of constantly changing his mind, forever did it dominate SW destiny.
Registered: Mar 2013
Location: in your mind, rent free
not quite forever, thankfully
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Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
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No no, you see, I mostly agree here- the only consequence it has to have is that Luke//Anakin must, unambiguously, be seen as the only way the Emperor could be beaten- and that's entwined with the character plot. I am very happy for the Rebels to get their military victory (though the jarring move from the totally dominant Empire of ESB to the easily beaten one of ROTJ is a bit much) but the Emperor himself should have been clearly beyond that; the thing that the Skywalkers had to settle. As it is, it's all mixed up due to the script changes, and the plotline about the Jedi saving the galaxy from the Sith loses its impact.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 03:16 PM
The Jedi don't have to literaly save the Galaxy by beating the Sith. Through their actions the Force is balanced and thus, the evil dudes get beaten by the good guys.
In the same way, erradicating the Jedi also makes it possible for the Sith to rule in RotS, it was never about the Jedi literally serving as an army.
Registered: Mar 2013
Location: in your mind, rent free
i can only assume that palps was that blinded by arrogance and simply wanted a front row seat to his own victory. when you step back and look at it otherwise, it indeed makes no sense at all that he was there. even their stated reason was cancelled out (vader already whipped the construction crew up to speed, so palps literally had nothing to do with anything.)
however, regarding this alternative:
imho a coruscant battle would have been a disaster if attempted with 1983 tech/effects.
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Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
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Well... except they do actually directly say that only a fully-trained Jedi can stop the Emperor. That is actually the entire setup. It's also how it is MEANT to seem, and is also the entire point of the Chosen One plot. So I have to disagree here- the defeat is meant to be literal and direct.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
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Only because you are thinking of Coruscant, which wasn't actually the capital they were thinking of in ROTJ production- that was Had Abaddon. Coruscant all came post-ROTJ.
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"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
Registered: Mar 2013
Location: in your mind, rent free
yes, but the galactic capital would still have to have been a mega-city setting. i just dont believe that it could have been pulled off properly with only models.
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Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.
It seems to be that two roads diverge in a yellow wood.
The EU asked the question: What if Luke was successful at restoring the Jedi Order?
Ep 7 asked the question: What if Luke was not only a failure at restoring the Jedi Order, but a quitter to boot? "I tried, I sucked, screw it all, I quit."
I think I like successful Luke better then FAILy McFAILington Luke.
Also, in the vs. threads, we rank Kylo Ren pretty terrible as a fighter, below almost everybody worth naming in the PT and even OT.
The powerful Jedi and Sith of the prequels are just...gone, it seems. And they ain't ever coming back. Today's n00bs just can't match up to what once was. Granted, we haven't seen Luke fight yet, and perhaps, when he does, he'll do something badass enough to make it clear he's a match or more then a match for Yoda and Sidious.
But...I somehow doubt Faily McFailington Luke is going to prove to be all that formidable. He may even prove weaker then his ROTJ incarnation.
Registered: Mar 2013
Location: in your mind, rent free
clearly the film is set up to make you believe that about luke, but i think (hope) that he isnt just sulking and waiting for the apocalypse. the fact that he's at the ancient jedi temple instead of just hiding in some swamp like yoda is one clue, imo.
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Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.
Dec 23rd, 2015 01:40 PM
