Also, he's stated to have been tossed like a ragdoll by Vader, not that he actually was in an inescapable Force grip, which remains unsupported save for the Wii version. And to my knowledge, the PS3/Xbox versions overwrite the others in terms of continuity. Feel free to correct me on that, though.
A ragdoll is a children's toy, obviously any comparison between Marek and one is going to be presented as a metaphorical. On the other hand, Vader was able to man handle Marek like a children's toy, and in the Wii version (of which their is no grounds for what you claim) fails to break his grip until the final moment. That seems like a sufficient feat of domination to me.
As for your point on CV, the obvious discrepancies between the two events are sufficient to debunk it tbh. I'm sure you can spot them.
So I can quote Beni's post but not Zoltan's (this is a recurring theme with ol' Zolt - I'm beginning to wonder if it's something he does).
I felt the need to mention Shaak again because it's part of a string of examples of Galen being nowhere near perfect. He did struggle with Maris, since he staggered backwards and delayed the fight with Soresu before switching to Juyo, which Brood was unfamiliar with, to overwhelm her. That being said, they were fighting on a DS nexus and he was apparently somewhat weakened from his battle with the Bull Rancor, but that's still hardly a positive mark in his favour.
As for Darth Desolous, I got it from the PS2/Wii/PSP versions of the game, where Kento Marek's Force Ghost (which can obviously see the future) gives Galen a warning that he'll need all his skills to survive; yet this is a mere simulacrum of Desolous that padawans beat as part of their trials. You also didn't mention the Shadow Guards, probably because you know he did in fact struggle with them.
So instead of cherry-picking my examples and trying to disprove individual points meaninglessly for the sake of it, take a look at the bigger picture and realize my point; that the quote is hyperbole and that Galen is in no way near-perfect, especially as of the start of the game.
There's no dismissal; I'm putting it in its place - it's obviously hyperbole. Being "skilled" doesn't mean shit at this level, lmao. And again, Vader beating him doesn't in any way put him up there with prime Anakin as you're implying. Anakin, probably more easily than Vader beat SK, beat an arguably superior swordsman than Galen in Cin Drallig, despite being hindered and using one hand because he was choking somebody else at the same time.
I know that. As with you and Shaak Ti, I referenced it beforehand. It's not like I forgot the quote; I just had reservations about its application. But I already said I can get on board with you on the point.
Where? I only know the quote about Vader fighting recklessly. Either way, again, beating Galen is probably inferior to beating Drallig, never mind the fact that Anakin was doing it with greater ease whilst hindered.
So in no way does this put Vader on Anakin's level, as you implied.
Interesting. Do you have evidence to back up the first two claims of yours? Also, unless I'm mistaken, more recent sources have Jedi musing that Vader around this time to be slow.
This rests on the assumption that the extent to which Sidious was holding back in Lords of the Sith and in The Lawless is identical, which is up to you to prove.
If the suggestion is that Vader is noticeably faster than Maul or Savage, that seems unlikely given that his movements are stated to be restricted by a 2010 source and according to Lucas, he's a "crippled half-robot" which certainly doesn't sound like he's faster than Maul at all.
Even if it did refer to fighting styles, that's not mutually exclusive from it listing advantages as well. As for Vader increasing over the years, my evidence lies on the disparity of his performance between Galen and SK, although the circumstances may balance it out as my discussion with Zoltan is bringing up.
On that topic, Vader's Jedi killer quote is a Legends accolade, and I'm not seeing why Dooku would fall under its jurisdiction. To memory, the only Jedi that Dooku's personally killed is Tiplee, which happens in a canon-only comic. Sifo-Dyas he arranges to get killed and doesn't execute personally; and I can't think of any other kills off the top of my head - certainly not any notable ones. With a record of zero Jedi kills in Legends, I think it's fair game to exclude Dooku from that accolade since he isn't really a personal Jedi killer to begin with.
He has better skill feats and accolades. The RotS junior novel claims that Anakin and Dooku are dead even and even in the RotS novel, Anakin's advantages come down to physicals rather than skill. We know Anakin as of the start of RotS eclipses Obi-Wan.
Apart from that, contending with Yoda, being equal with Mace as of Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, easily beating Grievous on repeated occasions, trashing S6 Obi-Wan and holding his own comfortably against Obi-Wan and Anakin in RotS (the RotS novel's an outlier) should put him above Obi-Wan.
Well, these come down to saberlocks rather than a theme of Dooku succumbing to Anakin's strength throughout the fight. In the first one, I agree he was outright overpowered, but it wasn't that big of a deal since he was able to respond to Anakin's follow-up moves just fine. We have examples of Yoda doing something similar to Sidious. In the second one, it looks like Dooku is briefly having some sort of mental realization about how good Anakin is; he manages to halt Anakin's blade eventually and use telekinesis at the same time. Later in the same fight, Anakin and Dooku briefly lock blades again and Anakin's clearly not pushing Dooku's blade back in that one.
It's arguable that the first two instances with Anakin pushing the Count's saber back come down to Dooku underestimating Anakin (IIRC, this is their first fight since the TCW movie so he probably didn't expect Anakin to grow so much), since in the second one he eventually manages to stop Anakin from pushing with his blade anymore, and in the bladelock after that, again, Anakin fails to push Dooku's blade back at all.
In the last one, Dooku overpowers Anakin, so I have no idea what you're talking about. People may be pushed back slightly in bladelocks as they gather power to overpower their opponent; I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Also, Anakin just came off a bloodlusted attack on Dooku and later has a visibly angry face as Dooku escapes, so I'd say he was fairly pissed.
I didn't say Dooku was stronger than Anakin, just that Anakin failed to replicate such things in later fights. Also regarding leverage, it's funny that one of your earlier examples was from Crisis on Naboo, because in that one when Anakin leaps onto the ramp, Dooku uses only one hand to block a two-handed avalanche strike from behind him, which is a terrible situation as far as leverage goes. Yet, Dooku doesn't succumb to Anakin's strength there at all.
Also, no, the RotS novel is an outlier when it comes to the duel on the Invisible Hand; it depicts Dooku floundering against the duo and the duo changing fighting styles which no other source does. The film doesn't show Dooku struggling until the end, and the junior novel, which is much more closely aligned with the film, depicts Dooku appearing at ease even when defending against the both of them; he's also only driven back slowly. Not to mention both the SW website and TCSWE claim that Dooku proved a formidable opponent to the duo. The script has Dooku driving the duo back at least once, with him and Obi-Wan tiring at the same rate whilst Anakin grows in strength over the course of the fight as a result of "getting angry".
As I mentioned earlier, the RotS junior novel depicts Anakin as being unable to gain any kind of advantage over Dooku at all until he draws upon his rage. That would include strength.
Last edited by SunRazer on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 06:48 AM
Its too bad nether the ps3 or xbox verison have starkille rbreaking out of vader's force grip but rather vader willingly throwing him up into the air after choking him. So they don't actually contradict the wii version. And "being thrown like a ragdoll" is literally ragdolling
Any reason to suspect that Vader can compare to Sidious at this point as a swordsman?
Also, Anakin beating Drallig > Vader beating Galen, then factor in how Anakin was hindered, using only one hand as he choked Bene simultaneously, and still beat Drallig with greater ease than Vader did Galen. Pretty big difference from where I'm standing.
And there's the fact that nothing explicitly retcons Fightsaber's remark about ANH Vader's dueling ability in comparison to Anakin's. Lucas would seem to support that, actually.
Lmao, beating Drallig isn't better than beating Galen.
And Vader not only compares, but is better than Sidious
Darth Vader is the embodiment of all evil. Under the guidance of Emperor Palpatine-aka Darth Sidious- Lord Vader controls the Galactic Empire with an iron fist. He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder.
-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide
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"You presume limits to our double standards. There are none." - Vitidiots
1. Drallig came to Dooku's mind before the B-team as a premier swordsman of the Order, so that's at least a possibility. Is it factually confirmed that the B-team are better? Otherwise, he could well be better than Saesee at least. Also, Galen was losing to TFU Shaak.
Give me a reason why would Mace not pick Drallig if he was better than the B-Team and also available. Shaak was charged with the defense of the Temple, so you can't even bring that up as an excuse.
And yeah Galen was losing to her...before his prime, duh.
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"You presume limits to our double standards. There are none." - Vitidiots
1. Who said Shaak was the only defender? Drallig was the head of the Temple Guard, head of the Temple Security Force, and the Battlemaster; it seems to me that he was also there to defend the Temple and protect/teach the padawans. Mace mentions bringing "three of the best", not "the three best".
So anyway, there's your reason. And now it's time for you to prove that the B-team is definitively above Drallig. What proof is there? Dooku mentioning Drallig instead of the B-team alongside Obi-Wan puts him in rather high esteem and implies that he's a level 8. His accolades about being unparalleled or nearly unparalleled don't hurt either, and they're better than anything the B-team have.
2. What proof is there that he surpassed her? You said his fight against Vader doesn't count; that leaves us with him struggling with Maris Brood and Shadow Guards.
Last edited by SunRazer on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 09:47 AM
1. Yet Shaak was explicitly in charge of the Temple not Drallig, RIP.
2. Dooku's opinion doesn't matter for shit considering he left the Order over a decade ago. He didn't even meet the padawan of his padawan until AotC
3. Lmao reiterating the same retarded points won't make it true. He still stomped Maris (and I don't recall the shadow gaurd atm so quote?). Besides he flat out states his skills improved since Nar Shaadda, as well as growing more powerful with each mission.
4. He did not lel. Drallig had help, Drallig was prepared, and he was still stomped. Never mind that Sidious > Anakin anyway.
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"You presume limits to our double standards. There are none." - Vitidiots
Mar 21st, 2017 08:58 PM
