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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » The prequel era being the prime of the Jedi


The prequel era being the prime of the Jedi
Started by: Azronger

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Zenwolf
Senior Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: United States


 

Tbh imo, there's no real big gaps between any eras of the Jedi Order. They each have their own advantages and what not, but as I see it, nothing really skews one era in favor than another.


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Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 12:25 AM
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godemperortrump
Death to the Sheevites

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Lmao

Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 12:57 AM
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NewGuy01
perpetual

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The Jedi Order we see at the start of TPM is essentially the Jedi Order. Lucas has never reportedly drafted (by the time of AotC, at least) that, in earlier times, the Jedi were different than as presented in TPM. Even if he did, obviously it has never been made public. Thus, it makes no sense for Lucas to be comparing the strength of the prequel trilogy Jedi to non-existent eras of Jedi that came before.


Yeah, that doesn't really fly. The fact that he hadn't envisioned the particulars of earlier eras doesn't change his obvious intention; when the Jedi fell, they fell from the peak of their power and influence, which was built up in the absence of the Sith.

Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 03:00 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
"Even more so than in the Clone Wars, these are the days (TotJ/KotOR) of the Jedi in their prime."

yes

The context of that quote wasn't about the individual power of combatants, but rather the amount of power the institution as a whole exerted.

There's no quote regarding kotor being the prime of the order that refers to then ability of individual combatants.

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Oct 31st, 2017 at 03:11 AM

Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 03:07 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

No one claimed otherwise. erm


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Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 03:09 AM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
which was built up in the absence of the Sith.

But that isn't said in Lucas' quotes. That's what you're interjecting to give it further context.

My point is exactly what you said here:

quote:
they fell from the peak of their power and influence


Which refers to not just the last thirty some years, but the Old Republic in general.


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 31st, 2017 at 03:14 AM

Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 03:11 AM
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AncientPower
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Registered: Aug 2014
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thumb up


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Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 03:12 AM
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Kurk
An heroed

Registered: Jul 2015
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Only a f-ucked up country like 'murica would allow drinking at such an old age.

I was an alocoholic before you could legaly drink.
ah yes, Europe; highest rate of binge drinking and alcohol related deaths responsible for the highest mortality rates among 15-29 year olds. Natural selection I guess smile .


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Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 12:10 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

Lucas's quotes were clearly just a comparison of the PT to the OT. He's never talked about KOTOR as far as I know.

If he said something akin to "In the whole History of the Jedi they were never this powerful", then that'd be better evidence.

Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 12:18 PM
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godemperortrump
Death to the Sheevites

Registered: Sep 2017
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Drunks are terrible, that's why everybody should be one. God will punish alcoholics in heaven but until then, happy drinking

Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 12:24 PM
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The_Tempest
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2012
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I'm still unconvinced.
First, Lucas doesn't have to explicitly reference earlier epochs of Jedi history for his proclamation that the prequels are the prime of the Jedi to ring true.
Second, the prequels don't have to be the prime, the heyday, or the golden age of the Jedi to simply be better fighters than the Jedi of the original trilogy. But Lucas still referred to the prequels as such.

Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 12:24 PM
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BlueTiger1144
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thumb up

Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 12:31 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm still unconvinced.
First, Lucas doesn't have to explicitly reference earlier epochs of Jedi history for his proclamation that the prequels are the prime of the Jedi to ring true.
Second, the prequels don't have to be the prime, the heyday, or the golden age of the Jedi to simply be better fighters than the Jedi of the original trilogy. But Lucas still referred to the prequels as such.



But he's talking in the context of the movies isn't he?

You know I'm a PT/OT era guy, and don't care much for the KOTOR era. But it's just how I always interpreted Lucas's statement. He was always talking about it in the context of the Prequels giving us stuff we've not seen before.

Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 12:41 PM
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BlueTiger1144
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Registered: Aug 2017
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Lucas's word is actually fact. Applicable for everything. It also makes perfect sense for him to be referring to the TPM era as their most powerful( this is just for argument's sake, it actually is the most powerful era), because in terms of the Sith war, it is made clear that it clouds a Jedi's connection to the force. And the Jedi have had a millenium to grow, unencumbered by the dark side.

So any way you want to look at it, he was referring to them being most powerful during the time of TPM.

Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 12:48 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm still unconvinced.
First, Lucas doesn't have to explicitly reference earlier epochs of Jedi history for his proclamation that the prequels are the prime of the Jedi to ring true.
Second, the prequels don't have to be the prime, the heyday, or the golden age of the Jedi to simply be better fighters than the Jedi of the original trilogy. But Lucas still referred to the prequels as such.

I mean, I'm reading the same quote as you - I'm just not concluding the same thing. To me, your stance doesn't make any sense within the context, and is just wishful thinking. I struggle believing one can read that quote and conclude that's what Lucas is referring to, rather than just using that quote for their own benefits.

The Jedi of the original trilogy are few in number, in exile or in training, and weakened or unskilled. The Jedi of the prequel trilogy are many in number, present in galactic affairs, and powerful. It makes perfect sense why he's calling the prequel trilogy the "golden age." That doesn't likewise apply to previous Jedi eras, since they should also be considered within that assessment.


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 31st, 2017 at 01:31 PM

Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 01:28 PM
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BlueTiger1144
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So any way you want to look at it, he was referring to them being most powerful during the time of TPM.

Ant is incorrect. The one quote which says anything remotely like that is the one which says that the Jedi are at their prime. Given that he refuted the CG quote by saying that it could refer to knowledge, it is just as well that this one could refer to knowledge as well. Or experience.

The quote simply says that it was the prime of the Jedi. That's it. Which is exactly what GL has said.

Trying to extend the GL quote in general to the OR by induction, also doesn't work at all, because as said, the Jedi were obliterated multiple times in the past.

GL has said very clearly that during TPM, the Jedi Order is at its prime. This quote, as is, is fact. He wasn't referring to any other era before TPM, he wasn't doing induction to extend this to any other time period in the Old Republic. And compared with GL's word, this falls flat. Not to mention, GL's quote is supplemented by a variety of other quotes as well, including the one from the Book of Sith.

Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 01:32 PM
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BlueTiger1144
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
So any way you want to look at it, he was referring to them being most powerful during the time of TPM.

Ant is incorrect. The one quote which says anything remotely like that is the one which says that the Jedi are at their prime. Given that he refuted the CG quote by saying that it could refer to knowledge, it is just as well that this one could refer to knowledge as well. Or experience. Especially experience.

The quote simply says that it was the prime of the Jedi. That's it. Which is exactly what GL has said.

Trying to extend the GL quote in general to the OR by induction, also doesn't work at all, because as said, the Jedi were obliterated multiple times in the past. Even when the Jedi were numerous, like in Bane's era, they were pathetically weak and desperate, going so far as to take in members just for the sake of it, desperate for anything to help them against the Sith.

GL has said very clearly that during TPM, the Jedi Order is at its prime. This quote, as is, is fact. He wasn't referring to any other era before TPM, he wasn't doing induction to extend this to any other time period in the Old Republic( which would be blatantly incorrect as we saw earlier). And compared with GL's word, this falls flat. Not to mention, GL's quote is supplemented by a variety of other quotes as well, including the one from the Book of Sith.

Meant to edit the previous one. Quoted it by mistake.

Last edited by BlueTiger1144 on Oct 31st, 2017 at 01:37 PM

Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 01:33 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by BlueTiger1144


GL has said very clearly that during TPM, the Jedi Order is at its prime. This quote, as is, is fact. He wasn't referring to any other era before TPM, he wasn't doing induction to extend this to any other time period in the Old Republic. And compared with GL's word, this falls flat. Not to mention, GL's quote is supplemented by a variety of other quotes as well, including the one from the Book of Sith.



Actually his quote could group together many past eras due to Ben Kenobi's line in ANH "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic... Before the Dark Times... Before the Empire..."

Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 01:51 PM
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Azronger
Vanguard of the Sheevites

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: At the forefront of Sheev's armies


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's no direct contradiction. Both quotes can function together.

The Jedi grow as the Republic grows. First off, no where does it state this grow is related to power. It can be related to knowledge, wisdom, etc.


Good point. However, the context seems to be solving crises and such, so I'd imagine lightsaber skill and mastery of the Force would be involved.

quote:
More importantly, the Jedi can grow throughout the years but TotJ and KotOR still be the peak of their power due to the fact the Order was, immediately thereafter, destroyed to just a few dozen members and rebuilt from scratch.


It doesn't refer to the Order; it just refers to Jedi. Whether they were part of the Order or not doesn't have any significance. They continued to grow regardless.

quote:
While they did indeed rebuild, it's apparent, from the KotOR quote, that the Jedi Order never again reached the pinnacle of combat-related prowess as they did during the Sith Wars, and that makes sense.

Tell me why a Jedi Order after a thousand years of peace and a galactic dark-side shroud hindering them would be better than a Jedi Order in a constant century of warfare and battle.


Could be a variety of reasons, none of which I need to know, because the fact remains that they are better during the prequels.

These same criticisms could be applied to the KotOR era too. They were hindered by a dark side shroud and their numbers had dwindled to a few hundred only, IIRC. You tell me why that kind of order would be better than one with ten thousand members who're free to spar with lightsabers and meditate on the Force in peace.

But don't bother; the possible reasons are irrelevant, as I said, so long as the facts are clear. Your point is moot.

quote:
Truly nothing states the PT Jedi Order is the best. I have no clue where that nonsense came from, nor is it remotely conveyed in the actual films.


It not being conveyed doesn't mean it isn't the case. KotOR being the prime isn't conveyed it the game either, so this just smells like a double standard.


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Last edited by Azronger on Oct 31st, 2017 at 02:17 PM

Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 02:14 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

[SPOILER - highlight to read]: Hence why I don't put KotOR as the prime of the Jedi either

Rather than point out the issues with the KotORCG quote, which anyone can recognize, justify the positioning that the PT era is instead the golden age, which is my main issue with this entire thread. I use the KotORCG quote to counter the mindless "PT is the supreme era" nonsense. I find it amusing the only legitimate claim to it is actually TotJ / KotOR. Every PT era quote is wonderfully ambiguous and distorted in use.

It's not that I rule out the PT to other eras like TotJ or KotOR. I don't have a solid opinion on which era I even consider the "golden age." The prequel trilogy very well may be the best era, but such an opinion isn't rooted in evidence - quite the contrary, actually. My point is you (and others) are trying to write this PT supremacy as G-Canon law, which it isn't. You even passively admitted in the above post that there are indeed issues with the notion and ambiguity surrounding the Lucas quotes.


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 31st, 2017 at 02:24 PM

Old Post Oct 31st, 2017 02:22 PM
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