Or that they just aren't all the good at/dedicated to finding instances of voter fraud in the first place. "31 confirmed cases" (assuming that figure is even legit) only means that 31 people got caught. Not that there have only been 31 instances of false identity/voter fraud throughout the years.
No you shouldn't. However if there's no evidence of may people like you voting, and we know there are thousands and thousands of people who voter id laws are deterring from voting, what exactly is the point of the restriction.
The only way to argue for voter ID restrictions is from a pragmatic standpoint, however that gets you nowhere as there remains no evidence of widespread voter fraud.
Uh yeah, that's now what jail is for. Jail is for crimes, not potential crimes you may or may not commit.
Prison is a consequence. The government has no business trying to stretch said punishments into life-time ones. If an employer is really concerned about someone who was a robber a couple years ago or who's done weed, then it's their responsibility to find it out, not the government's.
I do think not allowing them to vote after they have served their time is wrong.
Uh, what? Why is slavery an acceptable form of punishment?
There are still 18 states which don't have any requirements, and none of those states has produced evidence of widespread voter fraud.
So what would stop you from also getting a photo ID here? Like I said you don't actually need a Birth Certificate. I got one once just using a SS card and a college transcript.
And in those states we would probably never know if people are voting who shouldn't be voting. That's part of the point: if you never IDed anyone at a given bar then you would have 0 confirmed cases of minors being served because you aren't checking for that in the first place.
Once again you are using a pragmatic argument to argue against IDs; that you don't believe voter fraud is likely to happen regardless. You seemingly agree with the "principle" that non-citizens shouldn't be able to vote, you just naively assume that it won't happen even if there's no mechanism in place to stop it from happening. But according to your own logic, if there were more confirmed cases of voter fraud then you would possibly agree that IDs should be required. So your argument rests entirely on pragmatism; I.E. no need to tackle an issue that you don't see as real.
Last edited by Afro Cheese on Nov 11th, 2017 at 07:35 PM
please don't simply ascribe to an ideology contrary to common sense. you're being played
if you research well enough it will be proven that having an id is not "raci ist" and does not significantly reduced voting. please come out of that bubble
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How can you stop me from voting in the US without proper ID laws? What if all tourists that are in the US during the election time choose to vote just for giggles?
I think you see my point.
If nothing stops me from simply walking into a voting booth without my identity checked first then there is no way to even check if voter fraud is massive or not.
Exactly
Last edited by Stigma on Nov 12th, 2017 at 12:23 PM
Well.... I guess nothing. TBH I never realized how retarded US laws concerning voting and identity cards are until now. TBH it seems you're right. Next time I'm in the US I'm getting me some sweet, sweet American ID
Last edited by Stigma on Nov 12th, 2017 at 12:26 PM
Again, the "principle" of voter fraud doesn't supersede the
"principle" of citizens being able to indiscriminately patriciate in the democratic process.
I'm using the pragmatic argument because the pragmatic argument is the only way one could hope to argue for voting restrictions. However the Pragmatic argument completely falls apart because there's no evidence it's doing more good than bad. We know it's massively lowing voter turnout, but we have no evidence it's having any noteworthy effect on voter fraud.
There's simply no basis to argue for preventing thousands of people from voting in every state when the proof of voter fraud is virtually non existent.
Unless you can prove voter restrictions prevent more non-citizens from voting than actual citizens, it's simply bad policy.
Now I'm open to having voter ID laws and having the voter ID be easy for anyone to receive. However untill you've successfully managed to do that, there is no pragmatic or principle based justification for a law that prevents tens of thousands of people from participating in the democratic process.
Last edited by Rockydonovang on Nov 12th, 2017 at 06:08 PM
Give me solid proof, 100%, of what you just said. I know people who got ID's and didn't spend that much. So...they lied to me, I guess?
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I corrected my statement, they can be forced to pay up to over a hundred bucks.
And, yeah, there are people who don't have to pay as much. However we don't legislate policy based on cherrypicked anecdotal evidence. And frankly it shouldn't matter the amount. Making someone pay to vote is the equivalent of the poll taxes that were levied against people in the 60's.
There's no justification for people having to pay to vote.
The source is the one I've provided.
I just think Afro Cheese thoroughly asnwered that concern of yours, so I'm not going to basically restate what he said.
I also think as long as a non-US citizen like myself can easily vote in US election in many states you mentioned, there's something fundamentally wrong about the laws.
So you don't imprison murderers to also keep them from murdering others? Hmmm. okay.
Also, drug use is a crime so you should be punished.
So no one should ever know the crimes you have committed? I don't agree with that at all. Don't commit crimes if you are worried about the ramifications later. It's as simple as that.
The employer does find out...with a background check. lol How else are they going to come up with your criminal history, your honesty?
If you can't see the difference between slavery and conditions of imprisonment for criminal activity then I really don't know what to say.
It would be hard to know if there's fraud if you don't have any way to check it. lol
California registers people to vote at the DMV when they get their DL and they allow illegal immigrants to get DL now. So yeah, let's not pretend that there isn't some level of voter fraud.
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Nov 11th, 2017 05:28 PM
