KillerMovies - Movies That Matter!

REGISTER HERE TO JOIN IN! - It's easy and it's free!
Home » Community » General Discussion Forum » Thank You, Koch Brothers! (Health Reform)

Thank You, Koch Brothers! (Health Reform)
Started by: Robtard

Forum Jump:
Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (11): « 1 2 [3] 4 5 » ... Last »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Author
Thread
Surtur
Astral Shaman

Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

Jake Tapper fact-checks Bernie Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez claim, and it’s not pretty

“Let me thank the Koch Brothers,” said Sanders on a recorded video, “of all people, for sponsoring a study that shows that Medicare-for-all would save the American people $2 trillion dollars over a ten year period.

“It shows that Medicare for All is actually much more, is actually much cheaper than the current system we that pay right now,” said Ocasio-Cortez in another video Tapper aired.

“Is that true?” asked Tapper rhetorically. “Did a study funded by the Koch Brothers indicate that Medicare for All would actually save the U.S. government trillions of dollars?”

“No, it’s not true, at least not according to the author of the study,” he said.

Tapper goes on to show how Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez made a misleading claim based on assumptions made by Sanders, and not as a conclusion of the study funded by the Koch Brothers.

“That study’s author says that that $2 trillion drop is not actually his conclusion,” Tapper added, “he said that’s based on assumptions made by Senator Sanders.”

“It is likely that the actual cost of [Medicare-for-all] would be substantially greater than these estimates,” wrote Charles Blahous of the Mercatus Center, “which assume significant administrative and drug cost savings under the plan, and also assume that health care providers operating under [Medicare-for-all] will be reimbursed at rates more than 40 percent lower than those currently paid by private health insurance.”


womp womp.


__________________
"I know it's gonna work because it's impossible"-George Lucas

"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners"-George Carlin

Old Post Aug 18th, 2018 05:48 PM
Surtur is currently offline Click here to Send Surtur a Private Message Find more posts by Surtur Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Eternal Idol
Lono, "The Dog"

Gender: Male
Location: Colorado

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Jake Tapper fact-checks Bernie Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez claim, and it’s not pretty

“Let me thank the Koch Brothers,” said Sanders on a recorded video, “of all people, for sponsoring a study that shows that Medicare-for-all would save the American people $2 trillion dollars over a ten year period.

“It shows that Medicare for All is actually much more, is actually much cheaper than the current system we that pay right now,” said Ocasio-Cortez in another video Tapper aired.

“Is that true?” asked Tapper rhetorically. “Did a study funded by the Koch Brothers indicate that Medicare for All would actually save the U.S. government trillions of dollars?”

“No, it’s not true, at least not according to the author of the study,” he said.

Tapper goes on to show how Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez made a misleading claim based on assumptions made by Sanders, and not as a conclusion of the study funded by the Koch Brothers.

“That study’s author says that that $2 trillion drop is not actually his conclusion,” Tapper added, “he said that’s based on assumptions made by Senator Sanders.”

“It is likely that the actual cost of [Medicare-for-all] would be substantially greater than these estimates,” wrote Charles Blahous of the Mercatus Center, “which assume significant administrative and drug cost savings under the plan, and also assume that health care providers operating under [Medicare-for-all] will be reimbursed at rates more than 40 percent lower than those currently paid by private health insurance.”


womp womp.

Sounds like backpeddling and damage control by the establishment.


__________________

Old Post Aug 18th, 2018 06:42 PM
Eternal Idol is currently offline Click here to Send Eternal Idol a Private Message Find more posts by Eternal Idol Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
darthgoober
Senior Member

Gender: Male
Location: Purgatory

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Sounds like backpeddling and damage control by the establishment.

How is it backpedaling if the author of the study never said what Sanders said?


__________________

Old Post Aug 18th, 2018 07:28 PM
darthgoober is currently offline Click here to Send darthgoober a Private Message Find more posts by darthgoober Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Surtur
Astral Shaman

Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

And this is CNN fact checking them. It's weird. They'd probably have loved to see Bernie burn the Koch Brothers.


__________________
"I know it's gonna work because it's impossible"-George Lucas

"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners"-George Carlin

Old Post Aug 18th, 2018 07:36 PM
Surtur is currently offline Click here to Send Surtur a Private Message Find more posts by Surtur Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Eternal Idol
Lono, "The Dog"

Gender: Male
Location: Colorado

quote: (post)
Originally posted by darthgoober
How is it backpedaling if the author of the study never said what Sanders said?


Initial claim:
"Medicare-for-all would cost x, while the current system costs y. x < y."

Now:
"But there's all sorts of shit that we didn't mention previously that could potentially increase the costs of x, when we should have factored that in for both x and y!"

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
And this is CNN fact checking them. It's weird. They'd probably have loved to see Bernie burn the Koch Brothers.


CNN didn't really do Sanders many favors during the primaries. They focused their airtime propping Clinton, the establishment candidate, for the Democratic presidential nomination, maintaining the status quo.


__________________

Old Post Aug 18th, 2018 08:20 PM
Eternal Idol is currently offline Click here to Send Eternal Idol a Private Message Find more posts by Eternal Idol Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
darthgoober
Senior Member

Gender: Male
Location: Purgatory

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Initial claim:
"Medicare-for-all would cost x, while the current system costs y. x < y."

Now:
"But there's all sorts of shit that we didn't mention previously that could potentially increase the costs of x, when we should have factored that in for both x and y!"


Are you saying that Sander's statement is correct despite what the author of the study concluded?


__________________

Old Post Aug 18th, 2018 08:51 PM
darthgoober is currently offline Click here to Send darthgoober a Private Message Find more posts by darthgoober Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
dadudemon
Senior Member

Gender: Male
Location: Bacta Tank.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Speaking of socialism and the military

Our Lefty Military smile

Yet if we seek another model, one that emphasizes universal health care and educational opportunity, one that seeks to curb income inequality, we don’t have to turn to Sweden. Rather, look to the United States military. -snip

The military helped lead the way in racial desegregation, and even today it does more to provide equal opportunity to working-class families — especially to blacks — than just about any social program. It has been an escalator of social mobility in American society because it invests in soldiers and gives them skills and opportunities. -snip

*Cult of Trump begins to look around worried*

A senior general earns about 10 times what a private makes, while, by my calculation, C.E.O.’s at major companies earn about 300 times as much as those cleaning their offices. That’s right: the military ethos can sound pretty lefty. -snip

*Cult of Trump feels permanent lump in throat*

“It’s the purest application of socialism there is,” Wesley Clark, the retired four-star general and former supreme allied commander of NATO forces in Europe, told me. -snip

*Cult of Trump begins to sweat profusely*

Perhaps the most impressive achievement of the American military isn’t its aircraft carriers, stunning as they are. Rather, it’s the military day care system for working parents. -snip

*Cult of Trump is full-on triggered*

One of the things I admire most about the military is the way it invests in educating and training its people. Its universities — the military academies — are excellent, and it has R.O.T.C. programs at other campuses around the country. Many soldiers get medical training, law degrees, or Ph.D.’s while in service, sometimes at the country’s finest universities. -snip

*Cult of Trump heads explode*


lol


And I think they should get those things. And I think they should be taken care of even better than they already are, too. Tricare needs to go away with medicare being expanded for all.


__________________

Old Post Aug 18th, 2018 09:05 PM
dadudemon is currently offline Click here to Send dadudemon a Private Message Find more posts by dadudemon Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Eternal Idol
Lono, "The Dog"

Gender: Male
Location: Colorado

quote: (post)
Originally posted by darthgoober
Are you saying that Sander's statement is correct despite what the author of the study concluded?


No, I'm saying you can't blame Sanders for drawing a conclusion based off their study on the total cost of Medicare-for-all, when they omitted other factors which could potentially affect the total cost.


__________________

Old Post Aug 18th, 2018 09:14 PM
Eternal Idol is currently offline Click here to Send Eternal Idol a Private Message Find more posts by Eternal Idol Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Surtur
Astral Shaman

Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

Seems more like Bernie didn't fully understand what was being told.


__________________
"I know it's gonna work because it's impossible"-George Lucas

"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners"-George Carlin

Old Post Aug 18th, 2018 09:17 PM
Surtur is currently offline Click here to Send Surtur a Private Message Find more posts by Surtur Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Robtard
KMC's #1 Top Rated Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Captain's Chair, CA

quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
lol


And I think they should get those things. And I think they should be taken care of even better than they already are, too. Tricare needs to go away with medicare being expanded for all.


I'm fine with it too, personally, I think even more of our over-bloated defense budget should be spent directly on our service personal. eg There's really no excuse why we have homeless vets

Just funny how socialist an institution it is, considering some people's views.


__________________


You've Just Been Kirked To The Curb

Old Post Aug 20th, 2018 04:25 PM
Robtard is currently offline Click here to Send Robtard a Private Message Find more posts by Robtard Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Eternal Idol
Lono, "The Dog"

Gender: Male
Location: Colorado

No time for a super-post featuring my complete thoughts, but here's an op-ed article which pretty much echoes my thoughts on the matter of the Mercatus Center's addendum to their study and CNN's Jake Tapper's misrepresentation of Sander's statements Medicare-for-all plan. As I've said before, I think their study backfired on them, so now they're backpedaling and playing damage control...

...but first, here's Jake Tapper admitting he ****ed up and misrepresented Sander's claims:

https://twitter.com/jaketapper/stat...220290460811264


https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/08/...edicare-for-all


quote:
CNN's Jake Tapper is the latest mainstream journalist to attack Bernie Sanders's Medicare-for-All plan. And just like all the others, his fact-checking is an absolute joke.

CNN’s Jake Tapper released a video on Friday claiming to fact-check Bernie Sanders’s claims about the cost of Medicare for All. Tapper’s fact check follows in the tradition of the fact checks that came before him in that it is riddled with errors that the libertarian Mercatus Center fed him. At this point, I think it is safe to say that one of the main impediments to the success of Medicare for All is that liberal and centrist media is mostly too stupid or dishonest to accurately describe the proposal to their audience.


The Mercatus Study

To understand where Tapper went off the rails, it is necessary to first explain the Mercatus Center paper at the center of all these controversies. On July 30, the Mercatus Center released a report by Charles Blahous scoring Bernie Sanders’s Medicare-for-All bill. The report says that under our current health care system, Americans as a whole will spend $59.7 trillion on health care between 2022 and 2031. Blahous then goes on to find that under Sanders’s Medicare-for-All bill, Americans will only spend $57.6 trillion, for a savings of roughly $2 trillion.

The study also finds that, because the federal government will take on almost all health care spending under Medicare for All, its share of total health spending will rise from $21.9 trillion to $54.6 trillion, an increase of around $32.6 trillion.

So, in short, under Sanders’s Medicare-for-All plan, the American people as a whole will save $2 trillion, and federal spending will increase by $32.6 trillion. That is the clear finding of Blahous’s study.


The Fact-Check

In Tapper’s fact check, he shows a video of Bernie Sanders saying: “Let me thank the Koch Brothers, of all people, for sponsoring a study that shows that Medicare for All would save the American people $2 trillion over a ten-year period.” This claim made by Sanders is 100 percent correct. There are no errors in it, and it is not deceptive in any way.

So how does Tapper find an error in a statement that is entirely true? By pretending that Bernie Sanders said something other than what he said. Specifically, Tapper describes Sanders’s claim as such: “[Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez] say that a study funded by the billionaire Koch brothers [shows that] the Medicare-for-All proposal would actually save the government money.”

Tapper then goes on to debunk the claim that “the government” would save $2 trillion and declare Bernie Sanders a liar, even though Sanders actually said “the American people” would save $2 trillion, which is entirely true.

Tapper’s fact checking was so egregiously wrong that even people who were previously uninterested in challenging shoddy fact checking piped in and told him he was wrong on Twitter and elsewhere. Tapper rejected these criticisms initially but as of Sunday afternoon has conceded the video is wrong and promised that it will be corrected soon.


More Errors

ost of the backlash to the video focused on Tapper misrepresenting Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez. But there are deeper problems with his fact check that also reflect the deeper problems in just about every other fact check.

Later in the video Tapper acknowledges that the paper says overall health spending would decline by $2 trillion, but then says, “The study’s author says that that $2 trillion drop is not actually his conclusion. He says that’s based on assumptions by Senator Sanders.” Tapper then turns to the “alternative scenario” Blahous constructs in the appendix of his report, which shows that, if you do not do Bernie Sanders’s plan but instead do a different plan with higher provider payment rates, then obviously the overall cost of the plan increases.

There are two main issues with this presentation, which Mercatus has skillfully coached a half dozen clueless fact-checkers to repeat.

The first is that the provider payment rates in Sanders’s plan are not assumptions. There are a lot of assumptions that go into scoring these plans. For instance, you have to make assumptions about how much more people will go to the doctor and how much more medicine they will take. But the provider payment rates are not assumptions; rather, they are written into the law itself. If Sanders says he is going to use Medicare reimbursement rates to pay providers, then that is what he is going to use. Any score that replaces those rates with some other set of rates is straightforwardly not a score of Sanders’s plan. End of discussion.

The second is that Tapper is committing journalistic malpractice by credulously believing what Blahous tells him about the study. What happened in this case is that Blahous wrote a study that showed federal expenditures would increase by $32.6 trillion and then buried the fact that this same estimate showed Americans overall would save $2 trillion in the tables of his report. After some writers and politicians started picking up on this hidden factoid, Blahous then started to do damage control by claiming that the estimate he just got finished promoting to the world is actually not the real one and that instead the real estimate is the one in the appendix that he calls an “alternative scenario” and that he says explicitly in the paper does not track Sanders’s plan as written.

Blahous’s new representation of his study, which came after he saw the reaction to it, cannot be assumed to be the correct one just because he authored the initial study. Rather the initial study stands alone and says what it says. It would be like if you had a recording of a man saying “I killed her” and then the man later said “I didn’t kill her” and so you reported: “Fact Check: Man Did Not Actually Kill Her.”

To determine whether the study says what Sanders says, you need to read it and independently judge that. If you are not capable of doing that, which most journalists aren’t due to the complexity of the matter, then you need to talk to a lot of people from different sides who have read the report and have the skills necessary to describe it to you. Instead, journalists like Tapper have decided to only ask Blahous, who has an incentive to deceive people, what the report says rather than asking neutral experts or experts from different political persuasions to describe the report.

It is not just Tapper who has done this, of course. According to Bernie Sanders’s policy director Warren Gunnels, the Washington Post‘s Glenn Kessler did not contact the Sanders office prior to writing his similar fact check and, when Gunnels later contacted Kessler to complain, Kessler allegedly said that “he has known the author of the Mercatus study for years & basically trusts whatever he says.” Kessler went on to issue three substantive corrections to his fact check, which seems to suggest that perhaps Blahous was not steering him straight.

This is the kind of nonsense we are dealing with here. Tribal affiliations are getting in the way of basic presentations of facts and figures. The centrist and liberal media brand themselves as truth-tellers, but that’s all it is: a brand. When the truth goes against their tribe or ideological priors, they become just as bad as Fox News.


__________________

Old Post Aug 21st, 2018 10:17 AM
Eternal Idol is currently offline Click here to Send Eternal Idol a Private Message Find more posts by Eternal Idol Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Robtard
KMC's #1 Top Rated Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Captain's Chair, CA

Give Tapper credit, at least he can admit when he made an error, unlike some.


__________________


You've Just Been Kirked To The Curb

Old Post Aug 21st, 2018 03:59 PM
Robtard is currently offline Click here to Send Robtard a Private Message Find more posts by Robtard Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Surtur
Astral Shaman

Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

Jesus these fact checkers can't be trusted either.

These are the same people who saying "Trump lied 3,000 times".


__________________
"I know it's gonna work because it's impossible"-George Lucas

"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners"-George Carlin

Old Post Aug 21st, 2018 04:10 PM
Surtur is currently offline Click here to Send Surtur a Private Message Find more posts by Surtur Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Surtur
Astral Shaman

Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Give Tapper credit, at least he can admit when he made an error, unlike some.


"Tapper rejected these criticisms initially but as of Sunday afternoon has conceded the video is wrong and promised that it will be corrected soon."

Yeah, at least he can admit he is wrong after he is shown the evidence and initially denies the evidence and then acknowledges it is wrong. What a guy.


__________________
"I know it's gonna work because it's impossible"-George Lucas

"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners"-George Carlin

Old Post Aug 21st, 2018 04:12 PM
Surtur is currently offline Click here to Send Surtur a Private Message Find more posts by Surtur Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Robtard
KMC's #1 Top Rated Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Captain's Chair, CA

Yeah, admitting you're wrong when evidence is given and you accept it as truth is the proper thing to do. Weird how you have one standard for the people you dislike and another for the people you love. eg Since you brought up Trump in this thread, he lies constantly and doubles down on the lies when called out, you almost never critique that, but here you are shitting on Tapper for admitting he was wrong.


__________________


You've Just Been Kirked To The Curb

Old Post Aug 21st, 2018 04:15 PM
Robtard is currently offline Click here to Send Robtard a Private Message Find more posts by Robtard Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Surtur
Astral Shaman

Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Yeah, admitting you're wrong when evidence is given and you accept it as truth is the proper thing to do. Weird how you have one standard for the people you dislike and another for the people you love. eg Since you brought up Trump in this thread, he lies constantly and doubles down on the lies when called out, you almost never critique that, but here you are shitting on Tapper for admitting he was wrong.


Trump just lets whatever dumb shit floats into his mind fly out of his mouth.

Jake Tapper didn't just randomly do this lol. He made a friggin video about it. Which would have involved research, etc.

Then when called on it he first refused. Then admitted he was wrong.


__________________
"I know it's gonna work because it's impossible"-George Lucas

"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners"-George Carlin

Old Post Aug 21st, 2018 04:19 PM
Surtur is currently offline Click here to Send Surtur a Private Message Find more posts by Surtur Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Robtard
KMC's #1 Top Rated Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Captain's Chair, CA

IOW: You'll continue to make excuses for Trump's lies (that's what they are, lies. Period.) and doubling down on said lies, while everyone else is a shitlord, even if they admit they got something wrong.

Moving on.


__________________


You've Just Been Kirked To The Curb

Old Post Aug 21st, 2018 04:25 PM
Robtard is currently offline Click here to Send Robtard a Private Message Find more posts by Robtard Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Surtur
Astral Shaman

Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

I'm not excusing it. I am saying there is a difference in the magnitude of the lie. Tapper had people looking into this, researching it, and didn't know he was essentially reporting fake news?

That's more alarming to me than Trump tweeting whatever dumb shit comes into his head.


__________________
"I know it's gonna work because it's impossible"-George Lucas

"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners"-George Carlin

Old Post Aug 21st, 2018 04:29 PM
Surtur is currently offline Click here to Send Surtur a Private Message Find more posts by Surtur Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
dadudemon
Senior Member

Gender: Male
Location: Bacta Tank.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Yeah, admitting you're wrong when evidence is given and you accept it as truth is the proper thing to do.


IIRC, CNN has a track-record of doing this. This is not a good thing.


They do something wrong, then say "whoops, we were wrong." When they knew they were wrong the whole time and only admit they are wrong when it is too obvious.


It's like this:

Do dishonest thing x. On purpose. Because political agenda.
Backlash y happens.
y becomes severe. y becomes z.
Admit x was wrong due to z.
Get pats on the back for admitting x was wrong due to z.

Repeat over and over.


After a while, you have to stop saying, "Wow, they are so honest." No, they are even more dishonest than they appear.


__________________

Old Post Aug 21st, 2018 05:50 PM
dadudemon is currently offline Click here to Send dadudemon a Private Message Find more posts by dadudemon Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Surtur
Astral Shaman

Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
IIRC, CNN has a track-record of doing this. This is not a good thing.


They do something wrong, then say "whoops, we were wrong." When they knew they were wrong the whole time and only admit they are wrong when it is too obvious.


It's like this:

Do dishonest thing x. On purpose. Because political agenda.
Backlash y happens.
y becomes severe. y becomes z.
Admit x was wrong due to z.
Get pats on the back for admitting x was wrong due to z.

Repeat over and over.


After a while, you have to stop saying, "Wow, they are so honest." No, they are even more dishonest than they appear.


Lol they edited footage of Trump feeding fish for christs sake.

Then there was that whole "make it seem like a woman is calling for peace when she was calling for the riots to be taken to the suburbs" schtick lol.

They are always super sorry...when they get called out. Tragic, just tragic.


__________________
"I know it's gonna work because it's impossible"-George Lucas

"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners"-George Carlin

Old Post Aug 21st, 2018 06:40 PM
Surtur is currently offline Click here to Send Surtur a Private Message Find more posts by Surtur Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
All times are UTC. The time now is 05:38 AM.
Pages (11): « 1 2 [3] 4 5 » ... Last »   Last Thread   Next Thread

Home » Community » General Discussion Forum » Thank You, Koch Brothers! (Health Reform)

Email this Page
Subscribe to this Thread
   Post New Thread  Post A Reply

Forum Jump:
Search by user:
 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON

Text-only version
 

< - KillerMovies.com - Forum Archive - Forum Rules >


© Copyright 2000-2006, KillerMovies.com. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by: vBulletin, copyright ©2000-2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.