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Thank You, Koch Brothers! (Health Reform)
Started by: Robtard

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DarthSkywalker0
Heir to the Throne

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Check capitalism and healthcare for my response to this video.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2018 07:41 PM
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Surtur
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So out of curiosity...did Jake Tapper ever correct the bullshit fake news story he put forth?


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2018 07:02 PM
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Surtur
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I cannot find any evidence that Tapper ever corrected this like he claimed he would.


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2018 06:40 PM
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Surtur
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So wow, CNN posted an updated "fact check" of the story. Case closed, right?

Ha no, cuz even after that Jake Tapper couldn't help himself. Bernie Sanders was tweeting out various things about what happened, which all turned out to be facts he got right from the study. Tapper then tweets this:

'Your views on the Mercatus Center study and Medicare for All are your own, senator, but four major fact- checkers agree you're citing the report out of context."

Not only was Bernie not taking it out of context...but the "four major fact checkers" Tapper cites all used the SAME source he did, the author of the study(who by now it is clear was trying to backtrack on what the study showed, so he's shockingly not reliable and Tapper acts like he is)

And Tapper isn't the only one who got this wrong. Fact checkers at the Washington Post also did. Jesus christ lol. Two major media outlet "fact checkers" turned out to be full of shit.

Side note: I find Jimmy Dore can actually be tolerable as long as he's not around TYT.


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Old Post Sep 6th, 2018 01:19 PM
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readyforher
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cw: racism, ableism

attempting to use sarcasm marginalizes oppressed groups by trivializing their experiences, and your username is horrible and ableist

Old Post Sep 6th, 2018 02:49 PM
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Eternal Idol
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur



So wow, CNN posted an updated "fact check" of the story. Case closed, right?

Ha no, cuz even after that Jake Tapper couldn't help himself. Bernie Sanders was tweeting out various things about what happened, which all turned out to be facts he got right from the study. Tapper then tweets this:

'Your views on the Mercatus Center study and Medicare for All are your own, senator, but four major fact- checkers agree you're citing the report out of context."

Not only was Bernie not taking it out of context...but the "four major fact checkers" Tapper cites all used the SAME source he did, the author of the study(who by now it is clear was trying to backtrack on what the study showed, so he's shockingly not reliable and Tapper acts like he is)

And Tapper isn't the only one who got this wrong. Fact checkers at the Washington Post also did. Jesus christ lol. Two major media outlet "fact checkers" turned out to be full of shit.

Side note: I find Jimmy Dore can actually be tolerable as long as he's not around TYT.


Surtur, what is your current opinion of Sanders' Medicare-for-All plan? Has it swayed one way or another after Mercatus Center's backpedaling and damage control became evident?


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Last edited by Eternal Idol on Sep 10th, 2018 at 04:34 PM

Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 04:21 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Surtur, what is your current opinion of Sander's Medicare-for-All plan? Has it swayed one way or another after Mercatus Center's backpedaling and damage control became evident?


I'd be on board with it if it was truly cheaper. So if Bernie is right I would support it.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 04:30 PM
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Robtard
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So after three pages of flaming Bernie and shit-posting, now these same people are starting to concede that Bernie seems to have been correct all along.

Well, babysteps is better than no steps.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 04:52 PM
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DarthSkywalker0
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
So after three pages of flaming Bernie and shit-posting, now these same people are starting to concede that Bernie seems to have been correct all along.

Well, babysteps is better than no steps.


What, lol. I debunked this entire thing on a different thread.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 05:01 PM
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Robtard
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Sure, kid.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 05:10 PM
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DarthSkywalker0
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Sure, kid.


I mean if you have a problem with my response, you are welcome to debunk it.


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"I am beyond prophecy. I forge my own destiny by making the hard choices. Now itís your turn."

Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 05:32 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
So after three pages of flaming Bernie and shit-posting, now these same people are starting to concede that Bernie seems to have been correct all along.

Well, babysteps is better than no steps.


It was a good learning lesson: never ever trust CNN again.

Baby steps indeed, I'm glad people are seeing this.


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"I know it's gonna work because it's impossible"-George Lucas

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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 07:48 PM
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DarthSkywalker0
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Surtur, that video is full of shit, lol. Gonna have to debunk it. CNN is right here.


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"I am beyond prophecy. I forge my own destiny by making the hard choices. Now itís your turn."

Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 08:03 PM
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Surtur
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Well hey if they are wrong and you can show it, awesome.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 08:11 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
What, lol. I debunked this entire thing on a different thread.


And I agreed/conceded that particular, too. I don't think it is up for debate, really...


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 10:22 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
And I agreed/conceded that particular, too. I don't think it is up for debate, really...


So Bernie WAS wrong?


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 10:23 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
So Bernie WAS wrong?


Read DS0's break down and my post reply to him...there's no argument to be had. I gave him a carte blanche agreemnent, pretty much.


I don't know if DS0 plagiarized again but that doesn't mean his point is wrong.

Here is his post and my reply:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
The US healthcare system is superior to any Single Payer system of comparable size.

Costs of Universal Healthcare:

Before diving into the costs of health care, we should at least establish a time horizon for the analysis. Most studies, including the one Sanders, cites on his website use a 10-year gap.

Analyses conducted on the costs of Bernie Sanders healthcare plan:

Friedman: 13.8 trillion(2017-2026)

Thorpe: 24.3 trillion(2017-2026)

Mercatus Center: 27.7 trillion(they refer to this as a conservative estimate, likely more)(2019-2028)

Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget: 31 trillion(2017-2026)

Urban Institute(best study): 32 trillion(2017-2026)

It is also worth noting that Sanders only cites Friedman's analysis on his website. Despite, most academics disapproving of it and the lack of peer review. Why is the Friedman report inaccurate?

1. Friedman assumes that that states will continue to pay for Medicare and CHIP after the elimination of those programs.
2. He severely exaggerates savings from Single Payer.
3. Inaccurately assesses additional associated with the removal of cost-sharing.
4. Provider savings are unrealistic.
More on this topic here: http://prospect.org/article/why-san...s-campaign-says

Due to these facts, we can dismiss Friedman's two-page invoice and focus on the other numbers cited. What is the cause of the discrepancy between Thorpe(off-hand analysis) and the Urban Institute(peer-reviewed published report)? Look at pg.11&12 of the Institute's study for more information: https://www.urban.org/research/publ...iew/full_report

For the reasons discussed there, I will rely on the Urban Institute as my primary source, when comparing costs. I also want to address one more detail, before continuing. Bernie Sanders' smug video. The Washington Post, of all people, fact-checked this claim. I will briefly report their findings. Sanders manipulates the principle of charity when thanking the Koch brothers. To quote the Post,



Blahous even notes this in the study, but Sanders ignores that fact. The post concludes,



So, in reality, the increase in national health expenditures is close to the one provided in the Urban Institute's study(6.6 trillion). The next two parts will be on healthcare quality and debunking bullshit.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
I would prefer you delete the "comparable size" qualifier because I don't think anything else out there is of comparable size. Far larger systems exist like China (not single payer). Far smaller systems exist like Singapore's.

In what way is the US Healthcare system superior to any Single Payer or Universal Healthcare systems, out there?




Okay, fair.





Okay, so what about the United States healthcare costs?


1. As a percent of GDP: 18%

Also, no one uses PPP so that's just nominal GDP, I think. But I could not verify.

2. Per Capita: $10,348

3. Healthcare Outcomes in the United States:
We do anywhere from decent to atrocious compared to our peers:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na...htmlstory.html#

And here's a recent study:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...bstract/2674671




Now, correct me if I'm wrong, the US is doing very terribly with respect to our spending on healthcare. We should have significantly better outcomes than our peers considering how much more we spend, per capita, right?


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 10:39 PM
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DarthSkywalker0
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I don't plagiarize, it is actually a little bit annoying that people think that. I do mention the WOPO's article, but the video has some unique points that also warrant some critical analysis.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 11:11 PM
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dadudemon
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I decided to do the math based off of a few variables/constants:

1. The above, cited, per capita costs of healthcare: $10,348
2. Each year, the average number of people in the US I set to 320,000,000
3. Average yearly inflation is 3.22%
4. Number of years I set to 10

Since this is not compound interest, each year will get assessed at different interest rate based on the year and each year gets summed after completing that calculation. Going backwards from year 10, these are the numbers:

$4,546,162,399,795
$4,404,342,569,071
$4,266,946,879,549
$4,133,837,317,913
$4,004,880,176,238
$3,879,945,917,688
$3,758,909,046,394
$3,641,647,981,393
$3,528,044,934,502
$3,417,985,792,000



Total: $39,582,703,014,544

(Yes, I forgot the investment formula for this so I did 10 individual calculations and "summed" them...don't judge me).

Meaning that under the current system, it will cost Americans a total of $39 trillion. That's 2019-2028, or 10 years.


That's much more than any of the other numbers that DS0 cited.

So using the most expensive numbers that DS0 cited for us, Bernie's plan using the highest numbers present (Urban Institute), will save Americans $7 Trillion. And my numbers are calculated without taking into consideration how fast medical costs are increasing under current system vs. the cost-control savings that would be realized if the Medicare System was expanded to all Americans. That also does not include the cost savings from the massive reduction in administration costs for existing medical insurance companies.

Likely, the money saved by Americans would be several trillion dollars more than the $7 trillion my rough calculation offers.



Conclusion: Bernie's far-too-liberal proposal (one that I am not on board with because it needs to be scaled back a bit) would save Americans $7 trillion over 10 years, minimum, if all other factors remained EXACTLY the same (they wouldn't).


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 11:12 PM
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DarthSkywalker0
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I mean the Urban Institute within the study itself says that the plan will not cost 6.6 trillion more than we already spend nationally. People tend to ignore that fact. But the number you provided is not much more than any data point mentioned. Blahous believes if we disregard Sanders' assumption it will cost around 40 trillion.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2018 11:14 PM
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