Juggernaut or The Hulk?

but just because you state it doesn't mean he's any stronger. like i said, juggernaut freed himself from trillions of ton's of rocks when he first became the juggernaut. somehow he was able to move under all the rubble. hulk supported a weight of 150 billion tons. no, juggernaut hasn't. but then when has he ever had a chance to prove it? has he ever had 150 billion ton's dropped on him? nope. hulk at normal power has never been able to overpower juggernaut, i don't see what's so hard to except about juggernaut being a tad stronger at base level. like i said, hulk is the strongest MORTAL, juggernaut is immortal. i do believe hulk can be stronger than juggernaut. in every way shape form. jaw muscles, leg muscles, arm muscles chest muscles, all of it. i just think he has to be rages to prove it. stating that the different hulk versions can press 100 tons and over, doesn't mean that it is difinitive proof that hulk is stronger. what i wish you would help me understand is why would marvel directly compare the 2 of thier strengths if clearly hulk was still stronger at base levels? they wouldn't rival each other at all if juggernaut didn't surpass it at first am i right? it just doesn't add up if you think about it.

"Notice it also said FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES HAS NO LIMIT? There is a BIG difference between saying "I do not know how fast my motorcycle goes" and "my motorcycle HAS NO SPEED LIMIT." Can you SEE THE DIFFERENCE"

i understand what you are saying here, but juggernaut's "speed" has never been shown either. he just simply has a limit that has never been shown, he's always that strong. he doesn't have to think about it, nor does he have to get angry. he just is. i just believe that hulk has to enrage himself to reach that level of strength. plane and simple. putting up different bio's isn't gonna convince me otherwise. nor can i convince you. this really isn't even a debate, we are basically stating our opinions over and over again.

also as for gladiator, basically he can do anything he thinks he can do. he uprooted the baxter building with EASE. it's not 150 billion ton's which hulk supported on his back, not pressed over his head. gladiator litterally pulled it up from it's moorings and didn't break a sweat doing so. even hulk has yet to do something of that magnitude.

hulk's words when lifting 150bill tonnes:'I'm not lifting it, just supporting it'.Or something to that effect.Then Reed Richards winds him up to make him angrier and stronger.He wasn't calm throughout that entire ordeal.

i used to own the comic, but it burnt up in a house fire, i wish i still had it.

Um, crawling out from UNDER "trillions of tons of rocks" and LIFTING 150 billion TONS is very, VERY different.

By the way, POST the issue in which he "freed himself" from - and I do quote you - "trillions of tons of rocks." Please make certain that the comic book says "trillions of tons of rocks."

Now, issue number and page please?

also as for gladiator, basically he can do anything he thinks he can do.

Wrong.

gladiator litterally pulled it up from it's moorings and didn't break a sweat doing so.

Does the Baxter building weigh 150 billion tons? NO. The MOUNTAIN RANGE that Hulk lifted dwarfed the ANDES. That's probably 5,000 BLOCKS FULL of Baxter Buildings that Hulk had on his back. Some comparison!

hulk at normal power has never been able to overpower juggernaut, i don't see what's so hard to except about juggernaut being a tad stronger at base level.

Prove it. Issue numbers please?

like i said, hulk is the strongest MORTAL, juggernaut is immortal.

Juggernaut is mortal. Spare me. The quote INCLUDES JUGGERNAUT.

i just think he has to be rages to prove it. stating that the different hulk versions can press 100 tons and over, doesn't mean that it is difinitive proof that hulk is stronger.

He was not "raging" when he lifted 150 billion tons. He is STRONGER. Marvel SAID he is stronger.

i just believe that hulk has to enrage himself to reach that level of strength. plane and simple.

He wasn't "raging" when he lifted the mountain range. Sorry, the bio states he lifts AT MINIMUM 100 tons. The BARE MINIMUM.

hulk's words when lifting 150bill tonnes:'I'm not lifting it, just supporting it'.Or something to that effect.

Actually he said "bracing" because he "had leverage." My point is NONE of you can "brace" 150lbs without wavering. If you moved it upward ONE INCH you lifted it. Hulk did not stand still and balance 150 billions tons of rock.

He lifted it.

what i wish you would help me understand is why would marvel directly compare the 2 of thier strengths if clearly hulk was still stronger at base levels?

Because they are Class 100? Told you before Hulk is listed first, then Thor. Superman is not considered in Hulk's class, he is considered to be in THOR'S class.

LoL, I really am not bothering with this "debate" anymore. Apparently you are so stuck on Juggernaut that you for some reason think he "can" be stronger than Hulk.

AGAIN, come on over to the board and feel free to ask the question. You can apologize in advance when they almost all to a PERSON will tell you that Hulk is the strongest.

www.comixfan.com

Danger Room

I'm done.

i didn't say hulk wasn't the strongest without sufficient rage. he is for all intents and purposes in the long run stronger than juggernaut. i do agree. but in hulk 172, 402, and 404, which were both juggernaut and hulk vs each other at normal power levels, hulk never over powered juggernaut. juggernaut held his own with hulk. so i don't get how you think he's so much stronger standing at a base level strength. marvel has never said "hulk is stronger" they say they rival each other. you are twisting words. as for juggernaut freeing himself, it was in his first issue. xmen #12.

Never....u r so right...anyone who would say juggernaut is stronger than the hulk is either a fan boy or misinformed...the Hulk is Marvel's character that embodies physical strength...Gladiator does not use pure strength, he uses a type of telekinesis, im sure u already know that though...him lifting the baxter building, which should have crumbled under its own weight blew gladiator's cover and gave Reed a way to beat him easy...this thread is about Hulk and Jugs fighting each other, not who is stronger, there is no debate on strength...Hulk: the most strength Jugs: the most invulnerable

The Hulk has never beaten the Juggernaut. We are talking about BEATING. Winning. Incapacitation. No physical force in existence can stop or harm the Juggernaut. Be prepared, this is a long read. If you skim over it, or are too unintelligent to comprehend it, that is your problem - the proof is in the pudding.

1) The Hulk has only punched the Juggernaut around - never has he done any harm to him. In their first encounter, the Hulk threw the Juggernaut into a mountainside, which forced his helmet to pop off into the Hulk's hands - and the Hulk wandered off, thinking he had won. The Juggernaut landed, and thought to himself as he watched the Hulk, realizing how primitive his mind was, "You can't stop a Juggernaut!" The X-MEN came and stopped the Juggernaut, whom was about to go whomp the Hulk from behind. He didn't have his helmet on, so Professor X promptly rendered him stunned, and out of commission.

2) When the Red Skull had enlisted the Juggernaut, he encountered the Hulk in a forest, in PLAIN CLOTHES. The hulk didn't know who he was, but the Juggernaut BEAT THE DAYLIGHTS out of the hulk with his bare hands, without any of his armor which you so incorrectly believe is the source of his invulnerability. He then proceeded to overpower the Hulk with his BARE HANDS, IN PLAIN STREET CLOTHES, forcing his head underwater to the point of near-drowning, the Hulk had to throw silt into the Juggernaut's eyes to get him to release him - the Hulk was pretty much out for the count. The Red Skull called the Juggernaut off at that point, or else the Juggernaut would have probably continued to destroy the Hulk.

3) The only time the Hulk has 'won' against the Juggernaut was when Apocalypse had boosted his power a hundred-fold with Celestial armor and implants - and even then, he merely slowed Juggernauts advanced using his own strength combined with the energy fields of his armor. He did whallop the Juggernaut in this fight however, and was about to 'finish' the Juggernaut off, but as stated before, the Juggernaut is COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY INVULNERABLE TO PHYSICAL DAMAGE. This does not apply to Magical and Psionic forces. War-Hulk would have not been able to remove the Juggernaut's head...

4) ... and even if he did, De'spayre had MYSTICALLY IMMOLATED THE FLESH AND ORGANS OFF OF THE JUGGERNAUT, LEAVING ONLY A GIANT SKELETON WITH A HELMET. Guess what? The Juggernaut, CONTINUED forward, grabbed De'spayre, informing him that when the Juggernaut is mad, nothing in existence will stop him - and De'spayre's sister dispatched him. The town of New Mexico which De'spayre had in his control honored the Juggernaut by proclaiming that day "Juggernaut Appreciation Day". Are you going to say that his armor is responsible for his invulnerability now?

And did I mention that was when De'spayre had stolen almost all of his power, at the time, that he did this? Yeah, that's right. He was at at TINY FRACTION of his power at the time.

5) The Juggernaut was only pushed back by perhaps the ultimate single force in existance - Thor's Godforce - it ripped up the entire landscape around the Juggernaut, barely moving him back (read: Juggernaut is not invulnerable to Mystical forces, which Godforce obviously is), and was UNPHASED. Right after this, he was encased in a 40-foot cocoon of solid steel, which he burst out of by FLEXING HIS MUSCLES. The Godforce has caused GALACTUS, THE THIRD FORCE OF THE UNIVERSE, TO FLEE FROM THOR. It didn't even give the Juggernaut more than heartburn! It SHATTERED the protective dome of a CELESTIAL. A celestial. The manifestation of the WILL OF ETERNITY, the universe itself. It did not even phase the Juggernaut.

6) The Juggernaut has punched Thor through the air, through two busses, and through a store, leaving Thor unconcious for the time it took the Juggernaut to trod over to where he was laying, burried in rubble.

7) The Juggernaut has punched so hard, that he has forced space and time to bend to his will, ripping open a path into alternate dimensions. WITH A PUNCH.

8) Although I shouldn't even mention this pitiful excuse for a crossover series, the Onslaught 'punch which rocked juggernaut' was PSIONICALLY ENHANCED. Onslaught wasn't even a physical being! He was a manifestation of Psychic energies. Every action he took was the manifestation of pure psionic power given form. The Juggernaut is NOT INVULNERABLE TO PSIONIC FORCES.

9) The Gladiator never punched or defeated the Juggernaut. The only time the Juggernaut was ever assaulted successfully by the Gladiator was when he was *THROWN* by the arm - note, not punched, he was pulled into the air by Gladiator who can fly, mind you, and tossed with super strength rivaling that of any super-powered being in existance (he is said to move planets on his own). The Gladiator is one tough contender, but all he can do is throw the Juggernaut around - he's never be able to physically harm him - namely because that is IMPOSSIBLE, period. There is no question about this.

10) The Juggernaut is UNSTOPPABLE BY ANY PHYSICAL FORCE IN EXISTENCE. Once he is moving against something, nothing will stop him other than psionic or mystical forces. And we've seen that it's taken the ultimate mystical force in existance to achieve the latter. Nobody has ever caused him to stop with physical force when he was moving. It is not hard to cause him to move, however - if he is standing there, it's plenty fine to punch him on his rear, throw him a mile away if you can manage that, or whatnot. You CANNOT stop his forward progress, however.

11) This crap about him exhausting the energy from Cytorrak has to stop. It's an ENTIRE PLANE OF EXISTENCE. He isn't going to 'tire himself and exhaust his invulnerability' in a fight, or through anything he could ever hope to do. This myth is based on Hulk/Superman/Whoever fanboys who cannot accept that there is someone that their super-strong, fast, durable, insert-other-trademark here Superhero cannot put down, no matter what they do, period.

12) The Juggernaut is IS stronger than the Hulk, TEMPORARILY. The Hulk starts out at the 70-ton Strength Class, whereas the Juggernaut is well into the 100-ton Range. If the Hulk can last long enough to get really angry, however.. the Hulk has limitless - LIMITLESS - strength. I do NOT believe that the Juggernaut could support an island on his back. HOWEVER, I also believe that the idea that the Hulk could lift it when not unimaginably angry is a one-off mistake by the writer. It's obvious (even to fans) that he should have been about as angry as he's ever gotten, to achieve that. The Hulk, after a while, is FAR stronger than any other being in the Marvel Universe.

The Juggernaut CAN be disoriented, confused, tricked, put to sleep, mind-controlled, moved around, and such, but no physical force on earth can stop the Juggernaut, or harm him in any way. He can also not tire, or become exhausted, and is totally self-contained.

The Hulk could not possibly hope to win, and I firmly believe that before the Hulk even has a chance to reach his higher potentials (100+ tonnage range, and higher) in order to achieve something like punching the Juggernaut into outer space (which still doesn't defeat the Juggernaut in one on one combat), the Juggernaut would have dispatched him. He nearly drowned the Hulk after overpowering him in his street clothes, and a prepared Juggernaut would simply mash him into paste after a while. If the Hulk could get angry enough in time, I FIRMLY believe that it would end up with the Hulk doing what he did to superman - knocking the Juggernaut into space. Which renders the fight a draw/inconclusive.

To sum this lengthy rant up, I have only these quotes for you all, from the Hulk and the Juggernaut respectively during their fights:

Hulk: "What it take to stop y... ?" Before being abruptly quieted by a blow from the Juggernaut.

Juggernaut: "You can't stop a Juggernaut!" Thought to himself, after being thrown into a mountainside by the Hulk, and landing unscathed.. as the Hulk wandered off.

Hulk: "Hulk tired... " As Juggernaut shoulder-rams the Hulk -through- a Butte, and then straight into another.

Game Over.

at least your thourow in your post.

glad to see a Juggernaut fan who puts a lot of effort into his argument

Let me tell you, I love both the Hulk and the Juggernaut. They have their own unique differences, and both captivated me from the moment I encountered them in comic books, so many years ago. I am just sick of the misinformation and swollen attitudes that everyone has towards both, in one way or the other.

The Hulk, in the fact that his potential is limitless. He has destroyed an asteroid twice the size of the earth with an all-out, angry as hell, punch. That is.. astounding. He's held mountains on his back. He has bent/broken the unbreakable - Adamantium. He's just plain astounding. He is a sort of, personification of all that pent up frustration we as readers and fans all have, letting us revel in the resulting fury and raw power from our own base annoyances. Sort of a, "take that" manifestation.

The Juggernaut, who cannot be stopped or harmed by any physical force in nature, no matter who wields it. He would not have been stopped by the explosion the Beyonder used to wipe out an entire solar system, nor would he be stopped if a billion ton block of solid adamantium, vibranium, whatever, was placed in his path. That is because the laws of Magic overstep the laws of science, entirely. It might seem ridiculous to think of the Juggernaut walking slowly against something like that, but the concept of Magic when compared with a Scientific standpoint is ridiculous all in the same.

In the end, I am just tired of people blowing things out of proportion, or down-playing GREAT heroes/villains just to inflate their egos, as if they were the writer of the rival characters in question. I am tired of people using Juggernaut to bolster their arguments with half truths and misinformation. People get a kick of of stating that he is not unstoppable, nor invulnerable to the physical forces in existance, when even the official Marvel site, Marvel directory, and even the creators of Hulk have said so..

.. oh, didn't know about that?

When the Hulk was on trial, he was undergoing daydream sequences, where he literally tore apart all the foes he hated so much. In one of them, he headbutted the Juggernaut so hard that his helmet shattered and the Juggernaut was afraid for his life, with his face smashed and gushing blood.

The writers of the Hulk had to later clarify that this was a daydream for concerned/ego-bloated readers which misinterpreted it - he said that, it was just a daydream, and it would have never happened that way, as the Juggernaut is completely invulnerable.

If that doesn't bring the debate to a close once and for all, I don't know what to say.

Now as for the current "Imposternaut" that is running around, without his armor, with the X-Men, what can I say. That isn't "THE JUGGERNAUT", that is a weakened, poorly written, crybabied version of "Cain Marko". Hulk, in my opinion, would have a field day with him indeed. I don't think it would last very long..

at first I thought Juggy joining the X-men was a unique idea and could pit Juggernaut against some new foes.

but I agree they DRAMATICLY weakend him. Imposternaut is a good term.

the she-hulk bit was funny tho.

Originally posted by Unstoppable
The Juggernaut, who cannot be stopped or harmed by any physical force in nature, no matter who wields it. He would not have been stopped by the explosion the Beyonder used to wipe out an entire solar system, nor would he be stopped if a billion ton block of solid adamantium, vibranium, whatever, was placed in his path.

You are wrong here on several counts. One, The Beyonder is not "natural," so the "physical force in nature" disclaimer is null and void. Two, it is often said that nothing on EARTH can stop Juggernaut when he begins to move forward. The Beyonder is an extraterrestrial. Am I...paraphrasing? No:

"Once he begins to walk in a certain direction, no obstacle or force >>>>on earth<<<< is powerful enough to stop him-- only he can stop himself."

http://marvelbook.topcities.com/jklm/juggerna.htm

Give Juggernaut his due, but anyone who SERIOUSLY thinks that cosmics cannot stop Juggernaut from moving forward is quite loony. I mean...Juggernaut would not have been stopped by an explosion from The Beyonder that wipes out the solar system? LMAO, where do you guys get this?

Originally posted by Unstoppable
12) The Juggernaut is IS stronger than the Hulk, TEMPORARILY. The Hulk starts out at the 70-ton Strength Class, whereas the Juggernaut is well into the 100-ton Range. If the Hulk can last long enough to get really angry, however.. the Hulk has limitless - LIMITLESS - strength.

Bullshit. ONE version of the Hulk starts out at 75 (NOT 70) ton range, and that is the weakest form - GREY HULK. Read for yourself. And SAVAGE HULK is the REGULAR, "default" Hulk, so you are incorrect in every possible way if we are discussing "Hulk" as a whole.

Savage Hulk

First Appearance: The Incredible Hulk #2

Identity Basis: This incarnation represents the innocent and trusting child personality.

Strength: This incarnation can lift approximately 100 tons as a minimum. This incarnation represents the epitome of the "madder he gets, the stronger he gets" and thus is for all practical purposes has no limit to the strength he can reach.

The Professor

First Appearance:The Incredible Hulk #377

Identity Basis: This is the idealized version of Bruce where he has all the strength of the Savage Hulk and the intelligence of Bruce Banner but none of the emotional baggage, awkwardness or shyness.

Strength: This incarnation can lift over 100 tons.

Mindless Hulk

First Appearance:The Incredible Hulk #299

Identity Basis: The body of the Savage Hulk with all personas supressed.

Strength: This incarnation can lift in excess of 100 tons. This incarnation's strength increased as his anger increased.

http://www.incrediblehulk.com/incarnations.html

And when you think about it, gravity controls Juggernaught to some degree, so any being that can manipulate a force as strong as gravity (i.e. a celestial) can control Juggy.

I think its unfair to pair up Juggy with celestials tho. I hate celestials and their overpowered crumminess.

Well Cain MArko has powers bestowed upon him from the mystical crystal. How does anyone know what his base strength is, it's cheating, it's totally magically cheating.

I totally give Juggernaut his props, but he is not invunerable. I know for a fact that he's strong enough to bend space with his punchs and rip space, punching into new dimensions. That is something very serious. Thats a raw display of power.

But, I also saw Juggernaut layed out in a coma, after onslaught was finished with him after refusing to be part of his crew. He was totally screwed in the head, he didn't know who he was, sort of like a concussion to the 100th power. That made me laugh seeing him laying on the ground all beat down like that.

So what I can gather is that Juggernaut can definitly be rocked out into a coma and killed with the aid of psionic abilitys, and mystical energies. Gotta fight fire with fire I supposse. Seeing how his powers are artifically created from mystical forces.

I like Juggernauts character in spite of all I said because, thats just who he is, and he was created to be a bad azz. But, I know for a fact that he can be stopped and can be rocked, can be comatost, and can be certainly taken out, for good! 😠

"But, I also saw Juggernaut layed out in a coma, after onslaught was finished with him after refusing to be part of his crew. He was totally screwed in the head, he didn't know who he was, sort of like a concussion to the 100th power. That made me laugh seeing him laying on the ground all beat down like that."

Try reading my post. Onslaught is a purely psionic manifestation. Everything he does is psionic in nature. He did not "physicaly rock" the Juggernaut. However, I really despise the Onslaught series as a whole - all he was used for was to take a fall to give Onslaught credit - sort of how the Gladiator is used all the time - to make others look good.

EDIT: You mentioned the blows being pscionic in nature. My fault.. appologies. The fact that he was physically harmed by electricity (they used the cables in the broken up street) to 'stun' him or 'calm' him is a good example of how ridiculously poorly they wrote him in the series - it could not have harmed him, period. No matter how badly he was rocked by something he was weak to previously.

Now, as for me saying "stopped" by the beyonder, my mistake. I meant it would not have killed him - however, looking back on the statement, the very fact that such a blast would not necessarily be a physical force (more like some unexplainable, magical force), I would have to take that back.

As for him being stopped by gravitational forces - he has walked forward while Jean Grey has held him suspended in a bubble in mid-air. Nothing can physically stop the Juggernaut. Magically? Psionically? Yes. Physically? As in, kinetic/physical force? No. Sorry. Galactus could not push him back or stop his advance. A Celestial could not stop him by stomping his foot down before him - it would move.

And as for the Hulk - there is a Hulk whom starts out at at 70-tonnes, and when enraged, grows to 100. I believe this was the original vision for him, but over time, he has changed - don't quote me on this! There is too much conflicting information floating around for me to wrap my head around right now, as I'm typing this from work. But yes, Savage Hulk? Professor? Etc? Sure, they have Class 100 Strength. So what? The Juggernaut does to - I am not for a second trying to establish that the Hulk could not eventually overpower the Juggernaut! You didn't refute anything in my post other than saying that the most unexplainable, powerful force potentially known to exist, whom was his own Universe, (the Beyonder) could have stopped him, and that the Hulk starts out at Class 100 strength.

Really now.. from the very same site, "The mystical energy of Cyttorak makes him impervious to all injury up to and including molecular disintegration." So if you are using that site as accurate, perfect fact, then I can use that piece of information just the same. Are you going to refute that the Hulk could 'beat him' in a fight, now?

Not even molecular disintegration can destroy him - as if that tidbit was necessary, considering he's been reduced to a skeleton, and it has done little to him rather than make him more determined. Again, the God-Force which shattered the very constructs which the Celestials have created to PROTECT themselves.. could not even so much as make him FLINCH - and that type of power (magical) is not something he is invulnerable against! It's one of his WEAKNESSES.

Case closed.

Refute incorrect numbers and whatnot, in my posts all you want, I'm sick of pointing out the obvious.

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And I agree, SuperDarryl - he was a character created to be the wild-card; just when you think your hero is on top of the world, he looms in the background waiting to put you in your place for an issue or two. Or three.

Or.. just kidding.

Keep in mind, I am not trying to rile anyone up or be rude, so if I come across that way at some point in my lengthy posts (sometimes, it's hard to see if I might have portrayed my message in this way amidst all this babbling I do), just point it out and let me know. It's not my intention.

Originally posted by Unstoppable

And as for the Hulk - there is a Hulk whom starts out at at 70-tonnes, and when enraged, grows to 100.

Not even molecular disintegration can destroy him - as if that tidbit was necessary, considering he's been reduced to a skeleton, and it has done little to him rather than make him more determined. Again, the God-Force which shattered the very constructs which the Celestials have created to PROTECT themselves.. could not even so much as make him FLINCH - and that type of power (magical) is not something he is invulnerable against! It's one of his WEAKNESSES.

Case closed.

LoL, please. I will show you how to properly refute and rebut 😉

One, you stated that Hulk "started at 70 tons." I showed you otherwise. The fact that Grey Hulk is the ONLY incarnation that starts at 75 tons is common knowledge...or should be for anyone who engages another in a discussion regarding Hulk's abilities.

Two, you stated, quote: "And as for the Hulk - there is a Hulk whom starts out at at 70-tonnes, and when enraged, grows to 100." Um...wrong. If so, why on earth was a slighty PERTURBED Hulk able to lift 150 BILLION tons if it "grows to 100?" There is potentially no limit to Hulk's strength, so - hmm, let me make sure you are not implying that it STOPS at Class 100. If NOT, my mistake, but that is how it reads ***to me.***

Three, you stated, quote: "You didn't refute anything in my post other than saying that the most unexplainable, powerful force potentially known to exist, whom was his own Universe, (the Beyonder) could have stopped him."

WRONG. I pointed out that ALL current bios on CLASSICAL Juggernaut state that no force on EARTH can TOTALLY stop Juggernaut once he starts moving forward. You do realize how many heroes/villians that does NOT include, yes? Thanos, Silver Surfer, Thor, Hercules, Odin, Zeus, Hela, Loki, Kurse, Destroyer, Galactus, Gladiator, The Champion, et al. - my emphasis being no force on EARTH. Juggernaut is FAR from "unstoppable."

Four, you stated, quote: "Really now.. from the very same site, "The mystical energy of Cyttorak makes him impervious to all injury up to and including molecular disintegration." Are you going to refute that the Hulk could 'beat him' in a fight, now?

Oh joy 🙂 You do realize that they are referencing an ORIGINAL conception of Juggernaut, yes? You know...Classical Juggernaut? You also realize that Juggernaut is no longer "Classical Juggernaut," yes? So if we are speaking in the present (and syntactically we ARE), we do agree that Hulk would stomp the unholy hell out of Juggernaut...yes? So yes, I am opining that Hulk would beat his ass...and badly.

Moreover, let me address this: "Nothing can physically stop the Juggernaut. Magically? Psionically? Yes. Physically? As in, kinetic/physical force? No. Sorry. Galactus could not push him back or stop his advance. A Celestial could not stop him by stomping his foot down before him - it would move."

LoL, a CELESTIAL could not stop Juggernaut? Let me put this in bold font for you:

"Once he begins to walk in a certain direction, no obstacle or force on earth is powerful enough to stop him-- only he can stop himself."

Since when was Galactus from Earth? Know of any Celestials on Earth? Checkmate, friend.

Moving on, you stated, quote: "Onslaught is a purely psionic manifestation. Everything he does is psionic in nature. He did not "physicaly rock" the Juggernaut."

Er, WRONG. He DID "physically" backhand Juggernaut from Canada to New York, he did not do that TELEKINETICALLY which is what you are implying via your "psionic" statement. Is Onslaught a TERRESTRIAL force? No, so that falls directly in line with that profile's statement that NO FORCE ON EARTH is powerful enough.

Again, you stated, quote: "Again, the God-Force which shattered the very constructs which the Celestials have created to PROTECT themselves.. could not even so much as make him FLINCH - and that type of power (magical) is not something he is invulnerable against!"

LoL, but ONSLAUGHT backhanded him so badly that he was left terrified at Psylocke's feet near Xavier mansion? And that was yet another example of some bullshit writing - Thor is NOT from earth, and his GEB is NOT an earthly force.

Before you attempt to "point out the obvious," you'd have to actually create a post sans the glaring mistakes, yes?

Ta,

"LoL, please. I will show you how to properly refute and rebut 😉"

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Yes, please do - obviously you're obsessing over it. Perhaps you should get a damp rag, apply it to your forehead, and relax a little bit. I am not exactly trying to 'throw my weight around' here. You obviously are. Is this some sort of.. status thing, for you? The egosticial remarks are really starting to wear thin.. *sighs*

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"Two, you stated, quote: "And as for the Hulk - there is a Hulk whom starts out at at 70-tonnes, and when enraged, grows to 100." Um...wrong. If so, why on earth was a slighty PERTURBED Hulk able to lift 150 BILLION tons if it "grows to 100?" There is potentially no limit to Hulk's strength, so - hmm, let me make sure you are not implying that it STOPS at Class 100. If NOT, my mistake, but that is how it reads ***to me.***"

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No, I did not mean stops. Even though I mentioned his lifting the mountain in my first post (which you very obviously merely glanced over, lest you'd not have needed to post this comment regarding it), thank you for posting it again. And I'm not sure on the number, but wouldn't an entire mountain-range be in the Trillions of tons? Not sure on that, but it'd seem more logical. Also, I stated that the Hulk, when angered, has limitless strength - far beyond what the Juggernaut could ever hope to achieve. Please, for someone who is so eager to treat me like some child because I disagree with your statements, at least read the posts thoroughly.

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"Three, you stated, quote: "You didn't refute anything in my post other than saying that the most unexplainable, powerful force potentially known to exist, whom was his own Universe, (the Beyonder) could have stopped him."

WRONG. I pointed out that ALL current bios on CLASSICAL Juggernaut state that no force on EARTH can TOTALLY stop Juggernaut once he starts moving forward. You do realize how many heroes/villians that does NOT include, yes? Thanos, Silver Surfer, Thor, Hercules, Odin, Zeus, Hela, Loki, Kurse, Destroyer, Galactus, Gladiator, The Champion, et al. - my emphasis being no force on EARTH. Juggernaut is FAR from "unstoppable." "

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Have you ever read a comic containing a fight with Thor vs. the Juggernaut? No? I didn't think so. He's fought Thor, and Thor couldn't do anything to him until he stripped him of his power. Even THOR HIMSELF said he was Unstoppable. The Gladiator has never stopped him, only moved him. Etc, etc, etc. The only force that has ever pushed him back when he was in forward motion was the God-Force, which I have repeatedly stated - which is perhaps the single most powerful blast of magical energy ever seen. Does Thor use the Godforce on the Hulk.. or.. anyone, for that matter, except in this most dire of situations? The answer is no, in case you weren't aware. The force which made Galactus flee for his very existance, merely pushed the Juggernaut back a few inches. I'll just wait for your next highly sarcastic and deeply stinging response to this to 'put me in my place', Never.

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"Four, you stated, quote: "Really now.. from the very same site, "The mystical energy of Cyttorak makes him impervious to all injury up to and including molecular disintegration." Are you going to refute that the Hulk could 'beat him' in a fight, now?

Oh joy 🙂 You do realize that they are referencing an ORIGINAL conception of Juggernaut, yes? You know...Classical Juggernaut? You also realize that Juggernaut is no longer "Classical Juggernaut," yes? So if we are speaking in the present (and syntactically we ARE), we do agree that Hulk would stomp the unholy hell out of Juggernaut...yes? So yes, I am opining that Hulk would beat his ass...and badly."

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Didn't I state that if we were in fact discussing the new Juggernaut, or, "Imposternaut", that the Hulk would beat him up very quickly? Yes, I did, didn't I? Again, for someone with such scathing internet omnipotence as you are clearly displaying, you really need to hammer down that flaw of not reading the posts you are beating down with such an e-fury.

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Moreover, let me address this: "Nothing can physically stop the Juggernaut. Magically? Psionically? Yes. Physically? As in, kinetic/physical force? No. Sorry. Galactus could not push him back or stop his advance. A Celestial could not stop him by stomping his foot down before him - it would move."

LoL, a CELESTIAL could not stop Juggernaut? Let me put this in bold font for you:

"Once he begins to walk in a certain direction, no obstacle or force on earth is powerful enough to stop him-- only he can stop himself."

Since when was Galactus from Earth? Know of any Celestials on Earth? Checkmate, friend.

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Really? Checkmate? *throws chessboard across the room, throwing an angry e-fit!* How could you say that to me! That means you won the argument! I.. what do I do now? *eyeroll*

Please, spare me the witlessness. A Celestial is a 2,000 to 4,000 foot high physical manifestation. Galactus is a physical being. How do you think anyone has punched him? It's a PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION. His footprints in the earth, are the result of something beyond your grasp, apparently - known as Kinetics. They walk. They tread. They have physical mass. This mass is not what can stop the Juggernaut. Their powers cosmic could indeed, cause him a great deal of problems. Are you confusing the concepts of 'Unstoppable' and 'Invulnerable'? I think you are. The useage of Unstoppable is meant literally. His forward motion. Nothing can stop it aside from Magical (Cosmic force, like the God-Force), and Psionic force. This is quite clearly presented, and I am really unsure as to how you are getting so outright confused.

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Moving on, you stated, quote: "Onslaught is a purely psionic manifestation. Everything he does is psionic in nature. He did not "physicaly rock" the Juggernaut."

Er, WRONG. He DID "physically" backhand Juggernaut from Canada to New York, he did not do that TELEKINETICALLY which is what you are implying via your "psionic" statement. Is Onslaught a TERRESTRIAL force? No, so that falls directly in line with that profile's statement that NO FORCE ON EARTH is powerful enough.

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Let's say that he did somehow phyiscally backhand the Juggernaut from one country to the other. What the hell does that mean? The Gladiator threw the Juggernaut farther than that. He can be moved. I ALSO STATED THIS IN MY FIRST POST, WHICH YOU CLEARLY HAVE NOT READ. This is.. really, getting old. He cannot feel pain - unless it is psionic or magical in nature. Do you think that the 'phyiscal' force of the blow is what harmed the Juggernaut, when the GOD-FORCE (being magical, a weakness to him of all things) could not harm him? You are -really- stretching things here.

Aside from the fact that there were countless inconsitencies in the writing of the Onslaught series, which nobody disputes - unless it is in favor of a character they are arguing against, of course.

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Again, you stated, quote: "Again, the God-Force which shattered the very constructs which the Celestials have created to PROTECT themselves.. could not even so much as make him FLINCH - and that type of power (magical) is not something he is invulnerable against!"

LoL, but ONSLAUGHT backhanded him so badly that he was left terrified at Psylocke's feet near Xavier mansion? And that was yet another example of some bullshit writing - Thor is NOT from earth, and his GEB is NOT an earthly force.

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Erm, hold on. We're back to the whole Thor example? He couldn't harm him in the least, nor move him, when they fought. I suggest you stop using that as a 'tool' for discussion, considering it took the magical removal of the Juggernaut's power (after which the Juggernaut STILL knocked the living daylights out of Thor, with a giant stone pillar to the head, fancy that?) for Thor to overcome him - only by tossing him into space using Mjollnir.

CHECKMAET!! EKKEKEKE!!11 *claps hands together, pimples explode on screen excitedly*

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Before you attempt to "point out the obvious," you'd have to actually create a post sans the glaring mistakes, yes?

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You're the only mistake here, "Never". I'll calmly await the next fluctuation of your ego to shower on this thread from above.

Sigh..

wow, im just gonna let u big boys fight it out 😛

Obsess over pointing out flaws in an argument especially when one waxes indignant over the fact that they were incorrect? Picture that!

Egotistical remarks? LoL

No, I did not mean stops.

I said MY mistake.

And I'm not sure on the number, but wouldn't an entire mountain-range be in the Trillions of tons?

Perchance, but did he lift the ENTIRE mountain range? No.

Please, for someone who is so eager to treat me like some child because I disagree with your statements, at least read the posts thoroughly.

As we say in Jamaica, "if yuh fling ah stone inna hog pen and it lick one, him bawl out."

Have you ever read a comic containing a fight with Thor vs. the Juggernaut? No? I didn't think so. He's fought Thor, and Thor couldn't do anything to him until he stripped him of his power.

Is there not a saying that "when you assume, you make an ass out of yourself?" You are assuming. Need I say the rest? Moreover, according to his BIO it says, again (odd how you like to ignore this part) "NO FORCE ON EARTH." Is Asgard on Earth?

only force that has ever pushed him back when he was in forward motion was the God-Force, which I have repeatedly stated - which is perhaps the single most powerful blast of magical energy ever seen.

Oh dear. More biblical hyperbole?

Didn't I state that if we were in fact discussing the new Juggernaut, or, "Imposternaut", that the Hulk would beat him up very quickly?

IF you were using the NEW Juggernaut during the ENTIRE post you would have a point, but you were NOT, hence your not having a point.

Please, spare me the witlessness. A Celestial is a 2,000 to 4,000 foot high physical manifestation. Galactus is a physical being. How do you think anyone has punched him? It's a PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION. His footprints in the earth, are the result of something beyond your grasp, apparently - known as Kinetics. They walk. They tread. They have physical mass. This mass is not what can stop the Juggernaut. Their powers cosmic could indeed, cause him a great deal of problems. Are you confusing the concepts of 'Unstoppable' and 'Invulnerable'? I think you are. The useage of Unstoppable is meant literally. His forward motion. Nothing can stop it aside from Magical (Cosmic force, like the God-Force), and Psionic force. This is quite clearly presented, and I am really unsure as to how you are getting so outright confused.

Can you read? Do you read? LMAO, please show us ANY dictionary wherein MAGICAL is a synonym for COSMIC. Is Silver Surfer a MAGICAL BEING? Is Dr. Strange a COSMIC BEING? Does Silver Surfer wield MAGICAL POWER? Any more definitions tailor made for this "discussion" that you'd like to pull out of your arse?

ANYTHING that is extraterrestrial with sufficient power can stop Jugs. ANYTHING be it PHYSICAL force, MYSTICAL force, or OTHERWISE.

Again. What does it say, sir? NO FORCE ON EARTH. Is Galactus a TERRESTRIAL FORCE? How about The Phoenix Force? Silver Surfer? NO, NO, NO. Show us where The Beyonder let loose his most powerful blast and Juggernaut simply shrugs it off, please? Or is this another reference yanked from the bottomless depths of thine arse?

The God-Force is not COSMIC, it is a MAGICAL attack. And it is his GODLY ESSENCE BLAST.

Let's say that he did somehow phyiscally backhand the Juggernaut from one country to the other. What the hell does that mean?

"Let's say?" He DID, period - you attempted to pass it off as a psionic attack in your first post. Your intermittent states of fugue bothering you again?

He cannot feel pain - unless it is psionic or magical in nature.

LoL, get a clue. Nothing on EARTH can cause him pain (or I should say, not "earth-born" force). Notice how Onslaught made his ass moan and groan? And his attack was PHYSICAL, so again - do you have a point, sir? Oh but that was inconsistent writing...because it undermines your "point?" Heh.

You're the only mistake here, "Never".

Shall AGAIN I point out your myriad mistakes that you attempted to fling down from your pseudo throne borne of your [sarcasm] impeccable [/sarcasm] comic book knowledge?

We can start with "Hulk starts at 70 tonnes..." We can them move on to the "whatnot" that you typed here:

Refute incorrect numbers and whatnot

And I'm the "only mistake?" *chuckle*

Ta,

As much as I'd love to continue being "trounced".. after looking back over some of Never's posts, and recieving more than one private message congradulating me on butting heads with someone who, in the words of one - "..doesn't waste a second to show everyone how "much" more knowledgeable he is in comics.." and "Must get off on it a lot.", I think I'll just drop the debate here.

I'm sure this opens the doors for a "firm rebuttal" against me, and since I won't be speaking out against it, I'll surely be "proven wrong". *chuckles*

I'm not going to blow this further out of proportion, rather I'll just hope that someone else might have something constructive to say pertaining to the Hulk vs. Juggernaut debate - which we've sort of strayed from anyhow.

Cheers!