let me add something else. those of you who said that hulk is stronger, period no matter what...... read the first battle ever between the 2. this would be in the pages of hulk #172. hulk had been raging for hours, and was on the virge of insanity with rage. he was raged even further when fighting the army batallion. even more so when he saw juggernaut about to kill the passing tourists. yet hulk still proved unable to over power juggernaut in this "madder stronger" state that he was in. in any other encounter, running at optimal levels, he has never proven to be stronger. which *could* imply that juggernaut simply stands at a base level strength which does exceed hulks own.
Hulk #172 is how old? Fairly weak argument - that is akin to basing Iceman's abilities on what he was able to accomplish in Uncanny #121. It has also been shown that BANNER-HULK had serious difficulty getting angry.
Tell me now, has Juggernaut ever been able to swim while supporting an ISLAND with ONE hand over his HEAD?
Running at optimal levels, Hulk hoisted 150 billion tons. What has Juggernaut done?
In a weakened state, Hulk's THUNDERCLAP has generated hurricane force winds (Ironclad and Ogress could not even stand up in it). He walked through Vector's telekinesis, which has been said to "whip away entire worlds." He has THROWN the weight of a mountain (Incredible Hulk #117).
He has blown down hundreds of trees **casually**.
THOR tried to move him and Hulk resisted. THE BLOB tried to move him and Hulk resisted using **one** arm.
Not to mention the fact that Marvel COMICS has stated on soooo many occasions that "Hulk is the STRONGEST there is."
Sorry, Juggernaut fans.
Originally posted by Never
Running at optimal levels, Hulk hoisted 150 billion tons. What has Juggernaut done?
If you're referring to the Secret Wars thing, I would say that was a bit out of character, don't you agree ?
Getting millions of times stronger (literally) without even being THAT mad, is waaaaay out of character, Hulk or no Hulk.
But Hulk is indeed stronger than Jugs when he gets angry.
Anywho...why that feat of strength was not "out of character" (and I am focusing solely on what the phrase "out of character" implies):
Let's discuss Hulk's "strength/feats of strength." Again, notice the quotation marks.
Adamantium is indestructible, correct? How come in Hulk #300 his HEAD left a hole in it? Why is it that when he picked it up his FINGERS cracked the adamantium?
Why is it that Hulk battled a super-humanoid created by The Leader and threw him into a dormant volcano? He then hit the ground so hard the volcano **erupted.** Hulk #117.
Hmm, recall them trying to inject serum into The Hulk using an adamantium-tipped needle...and it broke?
Why was Wolverine NOT able to penetrate Hulk's hide in Hulk #181?
Why was Hulk able to break Dr. Strange's "Bands of Cyttorak?"
Hulk single-handedly destroyed Mastermold (The Sentinel). Hulk Annual #7.
Why was Grey Hulk (you know, with the Class 70 - ER, 75 strength) able to destroy an asteroid twice the size of earth?
Hmm, surviving a ground zero nuclear bomb detonation? That's right, Hulk #440. Simply image.google.com the issue number and see the cover.
Closing up the earth with his bare hands after it split open after an earthquake. Hulk #302.
Jumping into the air and overtaking Jack of Hearts who said, quote: "It's IMPOSSIBLE! Nothing ALIVE can move that fast!"
Destroying an 80 story building with his bare hands and walking out of the rubble.
Destroying a forcefield created by an ETERNAL with his bare hands.
Ha. A quote: "With a strength bordering on the mythic, he tugs against a device built to withstand the power of the gods! But this is the power of the Hulk! And, ultimately, there is no force stronger than the Hulk!" -- Roger Stern & Sal Buscema
Destroying a cosmic machine built by the Celestials to protect The Flame.
Burying Captain Marvel under debris created by a sonic boom (his legendary thunderclap) by simply slamming one fist into an open palm.
Emptying an ENTIRE LAKE by merely slapping his hands on the surface.
Defeating The Gardener (you know, one of the Elders of the Universe), taking his Soul Gem, and throwing it into the CENTER OF THE EARTH.
Defeated Hyperion, the individual who could withstand the blows from Thor's Hammer.
LoL, Valkyrie's sword could not even cut Hulk's flesh.
Remember how fast 3-D Man was? Hulk was faster.
Blew out an entire river with the air from his lungs.
Hmm, Ironclad...the U-Foe who can increase his density to UNKNOWN LEVELS. Could he pin down The Hulk? Nope. Hulk stood up and PRESSED him over his shoulders.
21 "feats out of my ass."
Yes, pictures are available of most of those "feats."
Out of character? Hardly.
Oh...and FLUCK Juggernaut.
great arguement you guys got going. Gotta add this bit.
As for him being stopped by gravitational forces - he has walked forward while Jean Grey has held him suspended in a bubble in mid-air. Nothing can physically stop the Juggernaut. Magically? Psionically? Yes. Physically? As in, kinetic/physical force? No. Sorry. Galactus could not push him back or stop his advance. A Celestial could not stop him by stomping his foot down before him - it would move.
Sorry, if a Celestial ever crossed paths with the Juggernaut, he'd kick him like a field goal into the sun like he wasn't even there.
no force "on earth" can stop Juggernaut. A celestial would physicall rip that crystal right out of his chest, show it to him, clean it up, show it to him again, and then add it to a wedding ring for his Celestial wife.
Don't go saying that a Celestial could NOT stop him if you don't have proof to back it up.
A celestial would physicall rip that crystal right out of his chest, show it to him, clean it up, show it to him again, and then add it to a wedding ring for his Celestial wife.
LoL, wow Link.
As regards to the "no force on Earth" comment, apparently Herr Unstoppable failed to take that into account when he posted that "Juggernaut would not have been stopped by an explosion from The Beyonder that wipes out the solar system" tripe.
Good God. This gets teh Wolverine8888 hyperbole seal of approval!!111
You made a nice and interesting list there. But nobody’s arguing about his “moments of glory”. We all know our green friend has done some pretty impressive things (every hero has by the way).
But !!
Hulk lifting 150 billion tons IS out of character, no matter what everybody will tell you - you can compare it with Batman throwing the Tower of Eifel at the moon.
Does anybody realize how much 150 billion tons weighs ? Of course not, nobody can, because it’s too big a volume, too heavy a weight to imagine. It’s almost abstract, just like the distance of the stars is abstract. You can talk about light years all you want, but you will never fully understand how far it actually is.
The same goes for 150 billion tons. The hulk never, never will be able to lift that, I don’t care what has been written. I do not take everything for granted (if I had to sum up all the mistakes that are written in comics… )
The Hulk has a limit, like everybody else, and 150 billions tons is waaaay beyond his limit. I’ll explain :
Let’s simplify things a bit, and say that a normal Hulk can lift 100 tons. Like we all know, he gets stronger when he gets mad. So far so good. It’s also no secret that he hasn’t reached his limit yet (not to my knowledge), so nobody knows for certain what the maximum weight he can lift, will be. Don’t make me guess, because I wouldn’t have a clue.
What I DO know, however, is that by some magical reason, in the famous scene in Secret Wars, the hulks lifting ability insanely evolved !! His normal strength was multiplied millions and millions of times !!! Huh ?!? Without being that mad !?! Does anybody take that serious ? Have people never heard of exaggerating ? Bad writing ?
Being mad is one thing, being angry as hell is another thing, but your strength being multiplied millions of times just because you're angry, even when you’re the Hulk ? That’s without any doubt one of the greatest mistakes ever made in comic-history.
I can live with a mad Hulk whose strength doubles. I can accept his strength being tripled. But millions of times... ?
Think about it people, it was just a painful error of the writer. If the Hulk actually can be so strong, why doesn’t he get that angry more often ? He could very well be the strongest living being in the entire universe, since he can become literally ten thousands times stronger than Wonder Man, Thanos, Thing, Colossus, Superman, Thor, Silver Surfer and Odin together .
When he fought Onslaught, why didn’t he just crush him like a butterfly ? You don’t get a much angrier Hulk than when he fought Onslaught, and still Onslaught was laying on top of him, boring him by telling how evil he was and so.
I’v seen the Hulk mad plenty of times, but he never reached the strength he had in Secret Wars. And he even wasn’t that mad back then, just pissed off, surprised and nervous !! But NOT that mad, so the theory that he only gets stronger when he's mad, does not hold. Unless you realize the writer was high when writing that scene...or drunk...
Fact is that writers make him as strong as they want him to be.
Not logical at all. As a writer, what's the use of setting boundaries for your characters and than ignoring them all the way ? I don't care about the stories in which the Hulk did this and that, if a writer even doesn’t know a thing about the person he’s writing a story of, he should get another job.
"Sorry, if a Celestial ever crossed paths with the Juggernaut, he'd kick him like a field goal into the sun like he wasn't even there.
no force "on earth" can stop Juggernaut. A celestial would physicall rip that crystal right out of his chest, show it to him, clean it up, show it to him again, and then add it to a wedding ring for his Celestial wife.
Don't go saying that a Celestial could NOT stop him if you don't have proof to back it up."
I recommend you read the posts. I never said nobody could stop the Juggernaut. In fact, I myself said that a fight with the Hulk, would probably end up with the Juggernaut being punched into space if he couldn't incapacitate the Hulk quickly enough (before his strength rose sufficiently). Is that so hard to understand?
Nothing has ever physically stopped the Juggernaut. The only thing that has, was Thor's Godforce - the force which obliterated the protective dome of a Celestial (funny, how the force which could lambast the protections of the very Celestials you are toting around on your shoulders merely made the Juggernaut say, and I quote "That tickles!"😉. Now, before our resident know-it-all comes chiming in with, "THOR IS NOT FROM EARTH!!!!111111111111one11!", let me clearly state - Thor could not physically stop the Juggernaut. That is because Thor, Galactus, Celestials, and whatever other cosmic/godlike being you can think of, when manifest on this plane of existence, are in physical form. Thor, using physical force - due to his physical form - could not impede the Juggernaut from moving forward.
By your very own logic, you've defeated yourself. Why should this inability to stop the Juggernaut by Thor not extend to every single physical manifestation of other god/cosmic beings out there? Here's the answer, in case you couldn't come up with one before the veins in your forehead exploded - it shouldn't.
That's all I have to say, really. You can't physically harm the Juggernaut. The only time this has happened was in a very dicey, error-filled storyline in which they severely weakened the character in question in order to give credibility to a plot device character. And the means by which he suffered the blow is of course, questionable to anyone who isn't extremely biased - being that Onslaught (who by the way, IS in fact terrestrial, considering he is born of two mortal minds, thank you very much) - is entirely psionic in nature.
I was never arguing in the first place that the Juggernaut was as strong as the Hulk. I've stated this many times, very clearly. He's not. The Hulk is potentially, the strongest being in the Marvel Universe. Period.
I also enjoy the fact that well over half my points brought up concerning the Juggernaut were overlooked, in favor of perhaps the worst single piece of evidence against him - the pile of crap known crossover known as "Onslaught".
"Ta,"
Oh, just one more thing. I firmly agree with everyone that the current Juggernaut (as I call him, as do many others - the Imposternaut), would be trounced by the Hulk, and could not achieve this invulnerability/unstoppability in any way resembling his old self.
I hate the current Juggernaut, who is nothing more than a 'tough guy' to be tossed around or as filler in current plotlines.
All my arguments are made in support of the old guy we once knew. Don't let the distinction clash with anything current.
I think I'll just drop the debate here. I'm sure this opens the doors for a "firm rebuttal" against me, and since I won't be speaking out against it, I'll surely be "proven wrong. *chuckles* Apparently you've mistaken me for someone who will actually read that flawless paradigm of fanboyism at its finest.
Toodles.
Batman throwing the Eiffel to the moon? Batman is not strong, so whence comes that comparison?
The Hulk has a limit? Is that why profiles say that his strength is limitless?
No, the normal Hulk lifts at MINIMUM 100 tons - that is my POINT. No clue why Mr. Myopic attempted to say that Hulk can ONLY lift 100 tons when calm - that is his STARTING point. So...how has it evolved, when he has supported an entire ISLAND over his head with one hand while swimming and...wait...calm? Apparently his strength increases exponentially.
LoL, erm again, it has been stated sooooooo many times that Hulk is the strongest there is so I have NO clue how that is considered bad writing.
While I do agree, as I just stated, that the Hulk is the strongest being in the Marvel Universe, I do not agree with him 'calmly' lifting 150 billion tons.
Never did, because it just seems a bit off, considering how calm he was at the time. I'd like to see them elaborate on the issue, maybe a writer comment or whatnot, but that will never happen.
Zounds! More cluelessness!
Hulk's strength is a result of high anger OR stress which supplies his ADRENALINE. Of course Juggernaut fanboys would not be aware of such a qualifier.
"During times of high >>>>>>stress<<<<< or anger, an increase in adrenaline causes the Hulk's strength to increase dramatically. There has never been a limit shown as to the highest strength the Hulk can reach thus it is assumed it is limitless."
Might have been CALM as in not ANGRY, but he DAMN sure was stressed. If a ROCK is tossed at most of your heads your adrenaline would surge, let alone an entire MOUNTAIN range. And do not forget that The Molecule Man let is hover in midair for a bit BEFORE dropping it granting Hulk's stress levels sufficient time to increase dramatically.
Originally posted by Unstoppable
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The only time this has happened was in a very dicey, error-filled storyline in which they severely weakened the character in question in order to give credibility to a plot device character. And the means by which he suffered the blow is of course, questionable to anyone who isn't extremely biased - being that Onslaught (who by the way, IS in fact terrestrial, considering he is born of two mortal minds, thank you very much) - is entirely psionic in nature.
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if you argue that juggernaut was only hurt by onslaught just so that they could lend credibility to onslaught, i could say the same thing for juggy being able to withstand the godforce. when they wrote juggy being able to take the godforce and simply say "that tickles" all they were trying to do was lend credibility to juggernaut seeing as juggy was a relatively new character to the scene at that time.