Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Yes we haven't completely seen it happen yet..but we have been given evidence of the Hulk manhandling the Juggernaut..stopping his forward progress...and knocking his helmet off..leaving him flat on his ass using pure physical force...how many characters in the MU have been able to do this?

only thing i wanted to comment on... what dont you get about this?? hulk has never -physicall- stood in front of juggernaut and stopped him. the time when he knocked off his helmet and knocked him down was nothing more than a cosmetic attack 😉 in fact to answer your question "how many characters in the MU have been able to do this" well colossus a much weaker opponent has knocked him down. when juggernaut is just standing there, it isnt a matter of stopping him anymore, its a matter of moving his body weight 😉 if you cant understand that, you gotta be simple.

one time, but that's still an amazing thing...

"only thing i wanted to comment on... what dont you get about this?? hulk has never -physicall- stood in front of juggernaut and stopped him. the time when he knocked off his helmet and knocked him down was nothing more than a cosmetic attack"

Juggernaut was running toward him, Juggernaut was halted. The question should be what don't YOU get about this? It doesn't say "Juggernaut's forward motion cannot be stopped. Except by War Hulk and that doesn't count." It just says the first part, which is untrue isn't it? His forward motion was halted, regardless of how.

"in fact to answer your question "how many characters in the MU have been able to do this" well colossus a much weaker opponent has knocked him down. when juggernaut is just standing there, it isnt a matter of stopping him anymore, its a matter of moving his body weight if you cant understand that, you gotta be simple."

I absolutely love how before Juggernaut's forward motion theory got disproved, everyone was boning it like a horny dog. Now it has been, it's all of a sudden "not about stopping him. it's a matter of moving his body weight."

As soon as Juggernaut is disproved in one thing, you bring up another little trick or trap. The inconsistency is disgraceful.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Juggernaut was running toward him, Juggernaut was halted. The question should be what don't YOU get about this? It doesn't say "Juggernaut's forward motion cannot be stopped. Except by War Hulk and that doesn't count." It just says the first part, which is untrue isn't it? His forward motion was halted, regardless of how.

ahh, you are talking about war hulk, i think he was talking about professor hulk 😉 and there are different ways to look at it. you are thinking about it in an absolute sense, which nothing is absolute. not even living tribunal. i'm thinking about this from a common sense point of view. any power can be worked around, given certain circumstances 😉 just like juggernauts "unstoppable" power was worked around in the war hulk scenario. take away the extra dimensional energy, and put hulk in that scenario and what would have happened???? hulk would have been pushed back till juggernaut (are you ready for this one) decided to stop himself 😄

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I absolutely love how before Juggernaut's forward motion theory got disproved, everyone was boning it like a horny dog. Now it has been, it's all of a sudden "not about stopping him. it's a matter of moving his body weight."

it is a matter of moving his body weight in the scenario that "whobe" whatever his name is was talking about. juggernaut was just... standing there. his "unstoppable"-ness applies when he is moving. again, if you want to run in circles please refer to above post about "common sense" and "absolute".

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

As soon as Juggernaut is disproved in one thing, you bring up another little trick or trap. The inconsistency is disgraceful.

-AC

there is nothing inconsistant about it 😉 its no more off than hulk having "unlimited" strength but juggernaut being stronger. or the destroyer being stronger. or mangog being stronger.... it just is.

"just like juggernauts "unstoppable" power was worked around in the war hulk scenario. take away the extra dimensional energy, and put hulk in that scenario and what would have happened???? hulk would have been pushed back till juggernaut (are you ready for this one) decided to stop himself"

His unstoppable power wasn't worked around. The forward motion accolade was disproved. When did I ever say "Regardless of the dimensional energy, Hulk could do it"? I didn't. I just said that Juggernaut's forward motion is continuously referred to as being unable to be halted. It was, when you look at it without a biased view. He was never unstoppable, before or after War Hulk. That's the problem you seem to have in this debate. Every single thing you try to work around, bring up or attach yourself to regardless of if it happened once or not. You have the belief that you can dub things unworthy or "not in continuity" and now it appears that you believe you can just work around and disprove things that have happened. I'm not saying anything false nor implying anything false. Juggernaut's forward motion, that everyone claimed could never be halted, was stopped. It is stoppable.

"his "unstoppable"-ness applies when he is moving. again"

I'll do as you said and refer to common sense and absolute. "Unstoppable" is not an absolute term. You can say "Juggernaut is unstoppable......when moving. Not when stationary." and you would be within the boundaries of the term. Agreed. However, that isn't true either coz he has been stopped WHILE moving. Common sense says that. Two birds with one stone, common sense and absolute both referred to as requested.

"there is nothing inconsistant about it its no more off than hulk having "unlimited" strength but juggernaut being stronger. or the destroyer being stronger. or mangog being stronger.... it just is."

Hulk's moniker: Strongest one there is. Unlimited strength. Unable to be disproved because it is a possibility, a very likely possibility.

Juggernaut's moniker: Unstoppable, Irresistable force. Able to be disproved and has been so.

The fact that you don't like the fact that Hulk has theoretically unlimited strength and you can't disprove it, doesn't mean that inability to be disproved applies to Juggernaut.

It's inconsistency and it has been throughout this thread, on the part of the Juggernaut fans. In order for you to retain consistency you smack something with the "out of continuity" label when it displeases you.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Exactly. I'm actually making points though.

But you haven't been saying much about why you think Hulk can win. You've been mainly picking out spelling errors and misuse of words while referencing instances where people above Hulk's level or people using skills Hulk doesn't have access to have subdued Juggernaut.

"But you haven't been saying much about why you think Hulk can win. You've been mainly picking out spelling errors and misuse of words while referencing instances where people above Hulk's level or people using skills Hulk doesn't have access to have subdued Juggernaut."

Maybe not while you've been around. I've been saying over the past 116 pages of this thread as to why I believe in my opinion, Hulk would win and Juggernaut would lose and there are people who can vouch for me also. If you don't agree, fine. I don't see why I get accused of not saying much when I've been in this thread since Page 17 doing nothing but giving reasons, proof and back up of my opinion.

If I haven't been saying much, Juggernaut fans have clearly had their lips stapled.

-AC

All I've been seeing is the same ol' "Hulk's strength is limitless!"

Funny that a character with limitless strength is great but a character immune to physical damage is silly.

Re: The Onslaught thing.

At the time, Onslaught was just a combination of Magneto's power and Xavier's power. Neither of them have physical power, so it should be impossible for Onslaught to have physically attacked Juggernaut like that. Which means two things:

1. In the physical world, where Juggernaut was sent flying for however many thousands of miles and landed right in front of the X-men WITH HIS HELMET ON, the only way that could have happened was under the Magneto portion of Onslaught's power. That means he wasn't sent flying by a punch, he was sent flying by magnetic force, psionically reinforced (which, according to marvel science, somehow enhances magnetism).

2. In the mental world - where Juggy's helmet was off, I'd say the Xavier side of Onslaught was in effect, and when he's in your head, you can see or feel anything he wants you to see or feel. Remember, in the lead up to that, Juggernaut was running all over a room that didn't exist, up and down stairs that didn't exist right into Onslaught's arms. Onslaught mentally (Xavier) manipulated Juggy into thinking he was helpless in his arms, and then magnetically (Magneto) removed the gem.

that's the only explanation for this, at that point in Onslaught's evolution.

"All I've been seeing is the same ol' "Hulk's strength is limitless!"

Funny that a character with limitless strength is great but a character immune to physical damage is silly."

A) Well then you are clearly ignorant or haven't read my posts because that isn't all I've been saying. Funny how people make fun of the point I make that they hate they least, yet one that they can't get rid of.

B) I never said he's silly for being immune to physical damage.

Next.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
A) Well then you are clearly ignorant or haven't read my posts because that isn't all I've been saying. Funny how people make fun of the point I make that they hate they least, yet one that they can't get rid of.

B) I never said he's silly for being immune to physical damage.

Next.

Would it be possible for Hulk to beat somebody by himself who's immune to physical damage?

"Would it be possible for Hulk to beat somebody by himself who's immune to physical damage?"

By everyone's own admission, Juggernaut isn't totally immune, it has limit. He hasn't fought anyone yet for long enough to prove able to break that. That's a pro-Juggernaut comment.

Secondly, someone with strength beyond any theoretical limit would be able to surpass any Earthbound quality with limit. If you need it explained more, I cannot help you.

I love the way you accused me of blatantly calling Juggernaut's invulnerability silly with no proof whatsoever though, that was mature of you.

-AC

At the time, Onslaught was just a combination of Magneto's power and Xavier's power. Neither of them have physical power, so it should be impossible for Onslaught to have physically attacked Juggernaut like that. Which means two things:

What the heck are you talking about?..of course it would have been possible for Onslaught to attack him on a physical level..Magneto himself is able to endow himself with class "100" strength....that in itself is proof enough of Onslaught being able to injure the Juggernaut from a punch...

1. In the physical world, where Juggernaut was sent flying for however many thousands of miles and landed right in front of the X-men WITH HIS HELMET ON, the only way that could have happened was under the Magneto portion of Onslaught's power. That means he wasn't sent flying by a punch, he was sent flying by magnetic force, psionically reinforced (which, according to marvel science, somehow enhances magnetism).

Where does it state in the comic book that's the only way it could of happened?..lol.....I'll defer to Kill All's logic on this issue...

you are thinking about it in an absolute sense, which nothing is absolute. not even living tribunal.

...since nothing is "ABSOLUTE"....we could just as easily assume that Jugghead was thrown thousand's of miles because of a punch..

I mean Hell..he's been thrown back by the punches of Colossus and the Hulk......as our good buddy Kill All stated..but let me guess what your going to say..lol...he didn't feel any pain..so that doesn't count as a physical attack...lol...

2. In the mental world - where Juggy's helmet was off, I'd say the Xavier side of Onslaught was in effect, and when he's in your head, you can see anything you want. Remember, in the lead up to that, Juggernaut was running all over a room that didn't exist, up and down stairs that didn't exist right into Onslaught's arms. Onslaught mentally (Xavier) manipulated Juggy into thinking he was helpless in his arms, and then magnetically (Magneto) removed the gem.

Lets just clear up this physical attack thing once and for all...

...Whether Onslaught removed the damb gem with his hands(which he probably did do..)..or took the gem out with magnetism..it would still qualify as a "physical attack"..lol..

Why is this you ask..well..think about it fellas..the "real world" that we exist in is often referred to as the "physical world"..right...and the gem wasn't removed from his conciousness or "metaphysical world"... right...
...it was removed from his body...and that's a "physical" aspect of Juggernaut..therefore removing the gem from his body..whether it was done by using magnetism..his hands..or his freaking harry a$$..would still qualify as a physical attack...lol...come on now fellas...use some commen sense...🙄 😆 😆 😆

that's the only explanation for this, at that point in Onslaught's evolution.

Uuuh...well thanks for the explanation..but as you can see..your reasoning is just a little bit off.... 😆 😆

Topic.

I used it as an example, no need to actually go into the mans powers outside of relevance.

-AC

Originally posted by whobdamandog
What the heck are you talking about?..of course it would have been possible for Onslaught to attack him on a physical level..Magneto himself is able to endow himself with class "100" strength....that in itself is proof enough of Onslaught being able to injure the Juggernaut from a punch...

Re: The "Magneto can endow himself with class 100 strength". The correct answer is both "yes" and "no". He can use his magnetic power to reinforce physical strength, but it's still magnetism that's doing the work. It's similar to tactile telekinesis. So, Magneto endowing himself with class 100 strength couldn't lift a 100 tons of plastic, but he could lift 100 tons of metal. So yeah, Onslaught could punch Juggernaut, but that's mainly for effect - he wouldn't have to actually touch Juggernaut for the same effect to take place since it's sheer magnetic force doing the work. that would also explain why Juggernaut landed PRECISELY in front of the X-men - it was controlled.

Where does it state in the comic book that's the only way it could of happened?..lol.....I'll defer to Kill All's logic on this issue...

The proof is through inference. Onslaught is a psionic shell that houses Magneto's power, psionically reinforced, and Xavier's telepathic might. His power was described that was all throughout his earlier appearances of the Phase I storyline. "psionically reinforced" being the phrase they loved using.

...since nothing is "ABSOLUTE"....we could just as easily assume that Jugghead was thrown thousand's of miles because of a punch..

I mean Hell..he's been thrown back by the punches of Colossus and the Hulk......as our good buddy Kill All stated..but let me guess what your going to say..lol...he didn't feel any pain..so that doesn't count as a physical attack...lol...

I'm not saying any of that. In fact, I'm not even taking sides on this argument. I'm just explaining what happened with Juggernaut and how it wasn't because he just ran into some strong guy. He was repelled by Magnetic force.

Lets just clear up this physical attack thing once and for all...

...Whether Onslaught removed the damb gem with his hands(which he probably did do..)..or took the gem out with magnetism..it would still qualify as a "physical attack"..lol..

Sure, I can agree with that. Just like I argued that Magneto would mess up Juggy's physical brain chemistry, which is techncally a physical attack. I never said Juggernaut was immune to physical attack, did I?

Why is this you ask..well..think about it fellas..the "real world" that we exist in is often referred to as the "physical world"..right...and the gem wasn't removed from his conciousness or "metaphysical world"... right...
...it was removed from his body...and that's a "physical" aspect of Juggernaut..therefore removing the gem from his body..whether it was done by using magnetism..his hands..or his freaking harry a$$..would still qualify as a physical attack...lol...come on now fellas...use some commen sense...🙄 😆 😆 😆

Again, I agree with this. I never said otherwise.

Uuuh...well thanks for the explanation..but as you can see..your reasoning is just a little bit off.... 😆 😆

I think not.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
By everyone's own admission, Juggernaut isn't totally immune, it has limit. He hasn't fought anyone yet for long enough to prove able to break that. That's a pro-Juggernaut comment.

Do you have an instance when Juggernaut has been shown to have a limit do the amount of physical damage he can take?

Secondly, someone with strength beyond any theoretical limit would be able to surpass any Earthbound quality with limit. If you need it explained more, I cannot help you.

See above.

I love the way you accused me of blatantly calling Juggernaut's invulnerability silly with no proof whatsoever though, that was mature of you.

Guh, I swear there was something you posted doubting the credibility of a character completely immune to something... It may of been somebody else's quote lost in your indistinguishable way of quoting others but I physically can't read through the area I thought it was in 'cause it was during the petty dictionary duel.

"Do you have an instance when Juggernaut has been shown to have a limit do the amount of physical damage he can take?"

It's derived from Cyttorak, who's power is limited. Therefore anything Juggernaut has, only goes as far as Cyttorak's will to supply it. Which is never gonna be to the degree of making Juggernaut equal and even if it was, still limited power, however immense.

"See above."

See above also.

"Guh, I swear there was something you posted doubting the credibility of a character completely immune to something... It may of been somebody else's quote lost in your indistinguishable way of quoting others but I physically can't read through the area I thought it was in 'cause it was during the petty dictionary duel."

Everyone else can decipher my way of quoting. I do it this way, for the record, because I post replies in quick reply box and it's much easier to select what I'm replying to rather than messing around with quote tags and stuff. Preference.

If you can't back up such claims accusing me of saying something, then don't bring it up. Coz that's a direct claim about me that happens to be false. Swearing that I said something is nothing if I didn't actually say it.

If you made the mistake of misreading, no problem. Just don't accuse me of things that you yourself aren't sure of.

-AC

Let me help you guys with this.

Hulk.

Hulk.

Hulk.

Juggernaut is NOT incapable of being knocked out. Hulk gets stronger than Hulk real quick. Hulk is faster and more agile. Hulk is a better brawler, feeding off of pure instinct. Juggernaut would win in a cool contest, but against Hulk, there is no physical equal...

HULK SMASH!

Sentinel Boy, I think Hulk would win. However my dislike of fanboys applies to both sides. Speaking the truth, which you are doing, is good but doing it in a fanboy way makes you no better than them.

-AC

Originally posted by Sentinel Boy
Let me help you guys with this.

Hulk.

Hulk.

Hulk.

Juggernaut is NOT incapable of being knocked out. Hulk gets stronger than Hulk real quick. Hulk is faster and more agile. Hulk is a better brawler, feeding off of pure instinct. Juggernaut would win in a cool contest, but against Hulk, there is no physical equal...

HULK SMASH!

Juggernaut capable of being knocked out? True.

Juggernaut capable of being knocked out by a punch, or anything physical? Don't think so, unless I see otherwise. And if you really don't believe Juggernaut's a contender for the likes of Hulk, I suggest reading Incredible Hulk #172 and #402, Thor #411-412 and #429, Secret Wars II #7, Exiles #4, Juggernaut: Eighth Day, Avengers #24-25, Juggernaut: One Shot, and any other decent appearances I'm forgetting, and not necessarily in that order.