Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Started by Swanky-Tuna486 pages
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's derived from Cyttorak, who's power is limited. Therefore anything Juggernaut has, only goes as far as Cyttorak's will to supply it. Which is never gonna be to the degree of making Juggernaut equal and even if it was, still limited power, however immense.

Well, I don't think this is going to go anywhere. I'm not buying that Hulk will get so Hulked up that he will suceed where his past self with the power of two universes have failed. So powerful that he'll physically break an enchantment that was made to defy the laws of physics. And even if there is such a limit, I doubt Juggernaut would even LET Hulk get that strong.

"Well, I don't think this is going to go anywhere. I'm not buying that Hulk will get so Hulked up that he will suceed where his past self with the power of two universes have failed. So powerful that he'll physically break an enchantment that was made to defy the laws of physics. And even if there is such a limit, I doubt Juggernaut would even LET Hulk get that strong."

A) You choose not to buy it. That's fine with me, doesn't mean that anything I'm saying is bullshit, so stop treating it as such with no back up.

And with regards to the last sentence:

B) Juggernaut wouldn't have a choice as to let Hulk get that strong or not. The only time Juggernaut knocked Hulk out was when he fell into the quicksand and then surprised Hulk. It happened and I am in no way denying it. But from what we all seem to have gathered in this thread, it's gonna be a one on one face to face fight. There will be no quicksand to hide in. Hulk isn't gonna stand there and say "Roiiiiight there.....go on son, right on the chin". Juggernaut is gonna smack him about, but without actually drastically surprising him, I don't see how you think that Juggernaut can decide how strong Hulk gets.

Bearing in mind that Hulk doesn't necessarily need to stand there getting angry to reach an extremely high level of strength, I'm not insinuating he will instantly reach it, just saying anger isn't the one emotion he uses. I don't personally see Hulk standing there with Juggernaut threatening to fight him, slapping himself for the purposes of psyching up. He's gonna be there ready to fight, with the mentality of being the winner. Juggernaut has had the chance to display such strength against Hulk in close range without surprise. He tried to break Hulk's neck, actually tried. Couldn't do it.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The only time Juggernaut knocked Hulk out was when he fell into the quicksand and then surprised Hulk. It happened and I am in no way denying it.

He knocked out Hulk by surprising him? Being surprised is accompanied by a rush of adrenaline which fuels Hulk's strength but Juggernaut still knocked him out? Adrenaline let him support that section of mountain but it did no good against Juggernaut.

"He knocked out Hulk by surprising him? Being surprised is accompanied by a rush of adrenaline which fuels Hulk's strength but Juggernaut still knocked him out? Adrenaline let him support that section of mountain but it did no good against Juggernaut."

He fell in the quicksand, Hulk tried to help, he tried to drag Hulk in but Hulk let go. So Hulk was standing over the quicksand and he came up out of the quicksand, from behind (as he did in another encounter) and started landing blows. Bearing in mind this was the same fight that Hulk didn't realise it was Juggernaut because of the fact that Juggernaut dressed in street clothing. Surprise isn't a natural adrenaline catalyst. Hulk has been surprised before and not became a mountain lifter. You are connecting, once again, the wrong things. Hulk SAW the mountain coming down and out of fear, adrenaline was created and he braced the mountain. He knew then that the only way to save himself was the instinct to try and stop what was coming down on top of him. If someone jumps out of somewhere and instantly lands on top of you and begins repeatedly pounding you in the head, the brain is too busy (and this is fact, so don't accuse me of making excuses, look it up) dealing with pain signals to give other adrenal commands.

Either way, there will be no quicksand or street clothing for Juggernaut to hide behind in the one on one face to face fight that this thread has been based on. Hulk is gonna be aware of what Juggernaut can do.

If Juggernaut was so sure of himself that he didn't NEED the street clothing to beat Hulk, or didn't need to surprise him, why then in the next issue when Hulk taunted him about it, did he get pissed off?

Answer: Coz he knows that without either he would have lost. If you look at that fight, all Hulk was doing was blocking Juggernaut's blows. Wasn't even trying to fight back. Juggernaut was trying to. He repeatedly asked Juggernaut who he was, did Juggernaut come clean and admit? Nope. Why? Coz he knows, as everyone knows, that in the knowledge that his opponent and aggressor were Juggernaut, he'd have fought back and won.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If someone jumps out of somewhere and instantly lands on top of you and begins repeatedly pounding you in the head, the brain is too busy (and this is fact, so don't accuse me of making excuses, look it up) dealing with pain signals to give other adrenal commands.

I think I'd rather you link me a reference to that... 'cause all I can find is adrenaline dulling pain.

If Juggernaut was so sure of himself that he didn't NEED the street clothing to beat Hulk, or didn't need to surprise him, why then in the next issue when Hulk taunted him about it, did he get pissed off?

Answer: Coz he knows that without either he would have lost.

I don't think Red Skull would of paid him for deviating from the plan. As great as his power is, Cain was pretty shortsighted with what to do with himself.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
His unstoppable power wasn't worked around. The forward motion accolade was disproved.

it wasnt disproved 😉 if it were the universe as should be (hulk and banner together) the events wouldnt have happened. its that simple. hulk just happened to be funneling energies that negated juggernauts energies. which include unstoppable and his invincibility. what would you call that?? i'd say its being worked around.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
When did I ever say "Regardless of the dimensional energy, Hulk could do it"? I didn't. I just said that Juggernaut's forward motion is continuously referred to as being unable to be halted.

it is unstoppable, in the universe NORMAL. but the universe wasnt normal. hulk was the focal point of 2 universe worth of energy 😉 some of that energy was from a different reality all together. therefor juggernauts magics didnt function properly against it. it was a 1 time thing. if hulk were to try with his "unlimited" strength he would ultimately fail. to which juggernaut would prove that his power would override even that of hulks "unlimited" strength. try proving that hulk could do it without the events that let him do it in the first place.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It was, when you look at it without a biased view. He was never unstoppable, before or after War Hulk. That's the problem you seem to have in this debate. Every single thing you try to work around, bring up or attach yourself to regardless of if it happened once or not. You have the belief that you can dub things unworthy or "not in continuity"

when they arent in continuity, i just simply state that. things work different in different universes. so am i supposed to compare alternate realities to mainstream?? no... neither should you. thats just my opinion. i see you picking out my posts and refering to hulks "unlimited" strength. which isnt unlimited because he cant even overpower juggernaut. REGARDLESS of how mad he has been.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
and now it appears that you believe you can just work around and disprove things that have happened. I'm not saying anything false nor implying anything false. Juggernaut's forward motion, that everyone claimed could never be halted, was stopped. It is stoppable.

you are misdirecting though 😉 juggernaut proper (fighting someone from his universe, that isnt the focal point of 2 universes worth of energy, that isnt negating his magics) should have a chance at fighting hulk proper also. but hulk wasnt proper, hulk was doing something hulk is incapable of doing by himself, or doing again....

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'll do as you said and refer to common sense and absolute.

what i meant are as 2 separate things. you have been refering to both, but you keep cramming them together. think of them separately 😉 stop comparing absolute to common sense. NOTHING is absolute. not even living tribunal. not even thanos with the heart because he apparently doesnt have control over ALL realities.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"Unstoppable" is not an absolute term. You can say "Juggernaut is unstoppable......when moving. Not when stationary."

its pretty obvious you are just nitpicking. unstoppable has to be moving in the first place. its a definition of the word. to try and be stopped you have to be moving.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
and you would be within the boundaries of the term. Agreed. However, that isn't true either coz he has been stopped WHILE moving.

yes, because of a word called negation. not because somebody physically haulted his movement. again juggernaut isnt absolute in power, and his power can be worked around. hulk worked around that power, and is incapable of producing the same results NOW.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Common sense says that. Two birds with one stone, common sense and absolute both referred to as requested.

do its separately 😉 they are not the same thing.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Hulk's moniker: Strongest one there is. Unlimited strength. Unable to be disproved because it is a possibility, a very likely possibility.

it CAN be disproved. he was beaten into unconscioussness sometime during the exiles crossovers or something of that nature. the destroyer the champion, mangog are ALL stronger than hulk would ever be. hulk cant even over power juggernaut (proper, both of them) regardless of how mad he is. if he were "limitless" in strength he should be able to physically hault juggernauts forward momentum. but he cant do it... therefor one would have to "logically" conclude that juggernauts power is greater than hulks.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The fact that you don't like the fact that Hulk has theoretically unlimited strength and you can't disprove it, doesn't mean that inability to be disproved applies to Juggernaut.

hulk doesnt have unlimited strength 😉 are you saying he could be so strong that he could physically hurl the earth like a baseball, or that he could drag a galaxy across the universe (something like the infinites did)??? i seriously doubt it...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's inconsistency and it has been throughout this thread, on the part of the Juggernaut fans.

just because you say so?? again, i doubt it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
In order for you to retain consistency you smack something with the "out of continuity" label when it displeases you.

-AC

do you even know what continuity is?? again, if ya want to, we could refer to hulk in the movie to fight juggernaut, and juggernaut would beat him to a pulp. because the movie version is much, much weaker than the comic book counterpart.

"I think I'd rather you link me a reference to that... 'cause all I can find is adrenaline dulling pain."

By adrenaline dulling pain you mean all you can find is it saying that adrenaline removes from feeling pain?

Do you know how a knockout is caused? It has nothing to do with actual pain. It's because on cranial impact, the brain slams against the side of the skull due to the fact that it sits near enough loose, and causes a temporary (or impact depending) or permanent coma.

"I don't think Red Skull would of paid him for deviating from the plan. As great as his power is, Cain was pretty shortsighted with what to do with himself."

I don't recall Red Skull saying to him "Fight Hulk dressed as a construction worker, don't tell him who you are either."

-AC

Originally posted by whobdamandog
What the heck are you talking about?..of course it would have been possible for Onslaught to attack him on a physical level..Magneto himself is able to endow himself with class "100" strength....that in itself is proof enough of Onslaught being able to injure the Juggernaut from a punch...

so magneto can do what hulk cant?? see where i'm going with this??

Originally posted by whobdamandog
...since nothing is "ABSOLUTE"....we could just as easily assume that Jugghead was thrown thousand's of miles because of a punch..

we could do a number of things. we dont know the circumstances that led up to the juggernaut meteor. so we cant really say one way or the other.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
I mean Hell..he's been thrown back by the punches of Colossus and the Hulk......as our good buddy Kill All stated..but let me guess what your going to say..lol...he didn't feel any pain..so that doesn't count as a physical attack...lol...

hes never been thrown back by a punch from colossus. only knocked down. and thats what a physical attack is. what hulk and colossus both do. but they dont hurt juggernaut 😉 nobody said because he couldnt feel it, that it meant it doesnt count as physical.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Lets just clear up this physical attack thing once and for all...

...Whether Onslaught removed the damb gem with his hands(which he probably did do..)..or took the gem out with magnetism..it would still qualify as a "physical attack"..lol..

there are a couple things to say about this. you are getting very confused. because you dont own the issue, or because you havnt read it at all. there are events that led up the "gem being pulled from his chest" incident. 1) juggernaut was without his helmet 2) onslaught was already warping juggernauts perception of the mansion to lead juggernaut right to himself (onslaught) 3) onslaughts phsychic "myst" aka blurr of colors manifested. indicating a psionic attack. and 4) the most important thing in the scenario ... dun da dun the gem.... WAS NEVER IN JUGGERNAUTS CHEST TO BEGIN WITH!!!!!!!!!!!! therefor it all happened on the astral plane and not in the physical world. onslaught at that point could make juggernaut think/feel whatever he wanted him to allthough no actual damage would have been caused.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Why is this you ask..well..think about it fellas..the "real world" that we exist in is often referred to as the "physical world"..right...and the gem wasn't removed from his conciousness or "metaphysical world"... right...

if onslaught ( a telepath) wanted juggernaut to bend over, and stuck his hand up his ass, thats where the gem would have come from. doesnt mean it was really there 😉

Originally posted by whobdamandog
...it was removed from his body...and that's a "physical" aspect of Juggernaut..therefore removing the gem from his body..whether it was done by using magnetism..his hands..or his freaking harry a$$..would still qualify as a physical attack...lol...come on now fellas...use some commen sense...

it isnt a physical attack. atleast the events point to a psionic attack. you are not very "observant".

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Uuuh...well thanks for the explanation..but as you can see..your reasoning is just a little bit off.... 😆 😆

yours is... please read above.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
By adrenaline dulling pain you mean all you can find is it saying that adrenaline removes from feeling pain?

Do you know how a knockout is caused? It has nothing to do with actual pain. It's because on cranial impact, the brain slams against the side of the skull due to the fact that it sits near enough loose, and causes a temporary (or impact depending) or permanent coma.

YOU said Hulk's brain was too busy processing pain signals to give the signal to produce adrenaline. I will not sift through hundreds of emo and goth wannabe websites undoubtedly laced with poems with the words "adrenaline" and "pain" in them trying to find a medical site relating to YOUR evidence.

I don't recall Red Skull saying to him "Fight Hulk dressed as a construction worker, don't tell him who you are either."

You don't make a plan to capture Hulk without specific orders either.

You can tell Alpha-Centuari is having a hard time argueing now, because hes been resorting to cussing, sarcasm, and leader phrases such as "Next!"

Centauri, you need to watch the Attitude, and begin to accept the fact your the only one here backing The Hulk...

And I would like to hear your reason as to why you think Hulk can defeat Juggernaut, so far all ive heard is you picking apart posts and, as tuna said "Infinite strength, infinite strength"

And get your posts right the first time, centauri, almost all of ur posts say edited.

Originally posted by IRTMU-Dragon
And get your posts right the first time, centauri, almost all of ur posts say edited.

Nothin' wrong with editing. Everybody makes a spelling mistake or words something funny every now and then.

Thanks for repeating the point I tryed making already Swank. Juggernaut's confident, but he still had a job to do.

"it wasnt disproved if it were the universe as should be (hulk and banner together) the events wouldnt have happened. its that simple. hulk just happened to be funneling energies that negated juggernauts energies. which include unstoppable and his invincibility. what would you call that?? i'd say its being worked around."

You still believe he has unstoppability and invincibility. I find that quite amusing. Because he has neither. As I have proved.

Secondly, what is so hard to understand? Why, when confronted with a two sentence fact, do you repeat the "energies from dimensions" thing, that I haven't even denied?

Watch: Juggernaut was pushing War Hulk with forward motion, he didn't lose power. War Hulk STOPPED HIS FORWARD MOTION and stopped him from pushing.

I'll simplify that: Juggernaut was pushing, then he wasn't. Because he was stopped.

"it is unstoppable, in the universe NORMAL. but the universe wasnt normal. hulk was the focal point of 2 universe worth of energy "

What planet did they fight on? In which Solar System? In which Universe?

Answers: Earth, Earth's and The universe in which Earth resides.

Energy or not, it does not change the fact that Juggernaut is not unstoppable. Even if that instance never happens again, the fact remains he was stopped.

"which isnt unlimited because he cant even overpower juggernaut. REGARDLESS of how mad he has been."

The problems with this sentence are plentiful. Here's why:

A) If they have a straight 1 on 1 and Hulk fails to overpower him, then come here and tell me that his strength isn't unlimited and he can't overpower Juggernaut. Stop saying that the Hulk CAN'T do things when he hasn't even tried to do them.

B) Hulk has never overpowered Juggernaut? Well if the overpowering part is just what we're refering to, I'll point you in the way of Hulk #172. I trust you've read it. The one where Juggernaut jumped onto Hulk's back and tried with no avail, to break the Hulk's neck. Hulk then grabbed him, pulled him off his back, picked him up by his head and swung him around then flung him into a mountain.

Juggernaut got up, I know this. However you said Hulk had never OVERPOWERED him. I think that breaking a neck grip that Juggernaut had on him FROM BEHIND and flinging him into a mountain constitutes as an overpowering maneuuuuuver.

"but he cant do it... therefor one would have to "logically" conclude that juggernauts power is greater than hulks."

Don't say Hulk can't do something that he's never tried and then talk to me of logic when the comment you just made was illogical.

"are you saying he could be so strong that he could physically hurl the earth like a baseball, or that he could drag a galaxy across the universe (something like the infinites did)??? i seriously doubt it..."

A Galaxy isn't something you can physically grab onto is it? You're blowing this a tad out of proportion. You would need more than physical strength for that. If Superman is strong enough to move a planet, and Hulk is theoretically stronger....? Yessss that's right.

"just because you say so?? again, i doubt it."

No, because of the way you present your debates.

"juggernaut proper (fighting someone from his universe, that isnt the focal point of 2 universes worth of energy, that isnt negating his magics)"

I swear in that one sentence you just re-arranged Juggernaut's power purely to negate the War Hulk fight. Yet you talk of consistency?

"stop comparing absolute to common sense."

I said I'll use Absolute AND common sense. Because........they are two different things. Stop accusing me of misdirecting then doing the same thing back.

"its pretty obvious you are just nitpicking. unstoppable has to be moving in the first place. its a definition of the word. to try and be stopped you have to be moving."

Definition says "Impossible or difficult to preclude or stop." When someone refers to another as an "unstoppable" foe, the don't mean "Man I can't beat that guy when he's not standing still." It doesn't apply solely to movement.

"yes, because of a word called negation. not because somebody physically haulted his movement. again juggernaut isnt absolute in power, and his power can be worked around. hulk worked around that power, and is incapable of producing the same results NOW."

So THAT'S why you think Juggernaut was stopped. Because you are taking it upon yourself to pair the stopping of Juggernaut by War Hulk being infront of him, to the fact that he had augmentation.

Tell me somethin', if War Hulk already had the power to vehemently negate Juggernaut's power, why didn't Juggernaut stop dead when he tried to push War Hulk? Hmm.

"do its separately they are not the same thing."

And you also accused me of nitpicking....funny. You're becoming more hypocritical by the second. From now on, anything you say not relating to the characters, fight or circumstances of the fight, I'm not replying to. Pointless.

"do you even know what continuity is?? again, if ya want to, we could refer to hulk in the movie to fight juggernaut, and juggernaut would beat him to a pulp. because the movie version is much, much weaker than the comic book counterpart."

EXACTLY. You have every right to refer to him. Hence why in the other thread I said "It's referable material." You can refer to anything, but if you refer to something we both know is rather unapplicable. It's going to be laughed at isn't it? Like you did to the guy in the other thread. If you can refer to movie Hulk, I can refer to the guy you like to call "Imposternaut" (who in actual fact, was Juggernaut) then put him against Hulk and watch HIM get beaten to a pulp. Then we can go back and forth 🙂. Referable material does not equate to being accurate material. Refer to it all you want but don't expect it to be taken seriously.

-AC

"You can tell Alpha-Centuari is having a hard time argueing now, because hes been resorting to cussing, sarcasm, and leader phrases such as "Next!"

Centauri, you need to watch the Attitude, and begin to accept the fact your the only one here backing The Hulk..."

A) Tell me where I cussed. I called you a simpleton coz you give me reason to believe you are. I didn't intend it as a cuss. Sarcasm? Everyone in this thread has uses sarcasm at one point, how does it show I'm losing? KillAll and I use sarcasm toward each other all the time and it's almost always meant in humour. I have absolutely NOTHING against anyone in this thread, at all.

B) I don't need to watch anything. You are the one who followed me into every thread to make comments to me that were completely irrelevant.

"Nothin' wrong with editing. Everybody makes a spelling mistake or words something funny every now and then."

I edit because sometimes I make a post, then others have posted and instead of clogging the page, I put a reply to a certain part, into the already existing post. So that nothing gets overlooked (like I am now.) Didn't you just refer to cussing? Either stick to topic and be civil or don't bother posting.

"You don't make a plan to capture Hulk without specific orders either."

So Juggernaut was incapable of capturing Hulk without dressing as a construction worker, knowing Hulk wouldn't fight back?

-AC

I bet even if The Hulk was versing The Mask you would say The hulk would somehow win.

Sure you have the facts, and your finding everything thats good about the hulk, picking apart peoples posts to make your comments look good, leaving out the logical stuff. I am a complete Anti-hulk, you know why? You. You disgust me with how much you support the fact The hulk cannot be stopped, Id like to see a comic where Dr. Doom creates a Gamma-ray destructer and removes all the gamma radiation from banners body and then back slaps Bruce till he dies.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
A) Tell me where I cussed. I called you a simpleton coz you give me reason to believe you are.

Uhh...
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
A) You choose not to buy it. That's fine with me, doesn't mean that anything I'm saying is bullshit, so stop treating it as such with no back up.

Didn't you just refer to cussing? Either stick to topic and be civil or don't bother posting.

That was IRTMU-Dragon.
So Juggernaut was incapable of capturing Hulk without dressing as a construction worker, knowing Hulk wouldn't fight back?

Who knows. He was just following Red Skull's orders. He was doing a job. For money. He can duke it out with Thor but, at the time, he was in it for the dollars. Go figure.

lol "That was IRTMU-Dragon"

Lol, hes loosing track, isnt he? Probably because hes involved in so many threads supporting the hulk.

"I bet even if The Hulk was versing The Mask you would say The hulk would somehow win."

I bet if The Hulk was FIGHTING The Mask you would say The Mask would win somehow. Right? Why? Coz you like him and you believe he would. Why is it ok for you to back a character you like, yet when I do it, I'm a fan boy? You are the one who said The Mask would take out The Living Tribunal. That is way above and beyond anything I've EVER said about Hulk.

"Sure you have the facts, and your finding everything thats good about the hulk, picking apart peoples posts to make your comments look good, leaving out the logical stuff. I am a complete Anti-hulk, you know why? You. You disgust me with how much you support the fact The hulk cannot be stopped, Id like to see a comic where Dr. Doom creates a Gamma-ray destructer and removes all the gamma radiation from banners body and then back slaps Bruce till he dies."

Hahaha. Sad. Hilariously sad.

-AC

Originally posted by IRTMU-Dragon
I am a complete Anti-hulk, you know why? You. You disgust me with how much you support the fact The hulk cannot be stopped, Id like to see a comic where Dr. Doom creates a Gamma-ray destructer and removes all the gamma radiation from banners body and then back slaps Bruce till he dies.

You know what, I would love it if we beat them.

Not my words, the words of Kevin Keegan.

"That was IRTMU-Dragon."

Yes, my post was to IRTMU-Dragon.

"Lol, hes loosing track, isnt he? Probably because hes involved in so many threads supporting the hulk."

If involvement in threads is how you judge a fan boy, I guess your fanboying me then. Because everywhere I go, you follow.

-AC