Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What in the hell? I was merely pointing out that you had before stated he wasn't capable of raging that long. I believe other wise and apparantly so do the writers. Talk about twisting words.

i've never said hulk couldnt rage for 2 days??? please quote me if you think you can...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Living Tribunal isn't humanoid, only for the basis of seeing him as something other than a floating head.

LT is a humanoid. five fingers and all. he isnt just a head. so he manifests himself into a physical body. can hulk beat him???

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not trying to prove pictures wrong.

but you are trying to prove me wrong. and the pictures are my "evidence".

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
There are not OTHER WORLDS in the UNIVERSE then? Celestials are entities. Apocalypse is an entity in a broad sense.

nobody said there were not other worlds in the universe. but hulks power wasnt comming from another world. it was comming from a completely different universe (heroes reborn).

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Such assumptions. What sort of energy do you think CELESTIAL tech was attracting?

it was attracting the energy from the heroes reborn universe and mainstream unvierse, and funneling it into hulk 😉 this was caused by banner being separated from hulk.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I think you are making assumptions as to what universes have what set of properties and laws now. Out of hand, drastically. Clutching at straws is such an understatement at this point.

i'm not the one who doesnt understand what was happening. you are.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why are you saying he could THEORETICALLY do something that he actually did?

i said theoretically as in Hurt juggernaut. because he didnt hurt him. but he theoretically did. he stopped him yes. hurt him?? no. so he "theoretically" could hurt him.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Physicality, as I said, from what you said earlier, would have no effect regardless. So it was Hulk's power at the time Vs Juggernaut's power at the time. Both derived from outside forces, Hulk didn't lose. It's really simple, stop trying to disprove something just coz you dislike it.

Juggernaut is a power from this universe. hulks power is from this universe. what hulk was funneling was NOT from this universe. juggernauts magic didnt function against it. hulk cant produce these results ON HIS OWN.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So when Hulk is powered up, he is no longer Hulk. When Juggernaut is powered down, he's no longer Juggernaut but "Imposternaut"?

no, when juggernaut is powered down he is "imposternaut". when hes powered up he gets bigger, and stronger.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yet when Juggernaut HAS received power ups, you've seen fit to mention them. Hypocritcal to the maximum there.

i'm not trying to argue juggernauts power ups in this fight???? where are you trying to go with this. cause hulk would get stomped if i tried to argue juggernauts power ups. no ifs ands or buts.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
War was Hulk. Hulk's body, Hulk's face. It was Hulk. Just like Imposternaut, whether you like it or not, is still Juggernaut.

no there is a major difference. juggernaut powered up or down, is well within his capabilities all the time. war hulk had outside influences to help him get to the power level he was at. he even had a different mind set (yes he was thinking different).

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Construction Worker Cain Marko therefore has a knockout over Hulk. Juggernaut does not. If that's how we're playing the game.

yes we are playing that game. but 1) "construction worker cain" was still at normal power levels and so was hulk 2) that was supposed to be smart hulk 3) hulk WAS fighting back. and 4) juggernaut can produce the same results without any outside influence. however hulk cannot duplicate power that war had 😉

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Apocalypse picked up on what you all deny is there, the limitless potential.

lol, no apocalypse says he wants to help hulk funnel the energy. you obviously havnt read whats going on 😉

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Just like when he fought Onslaught, all that happened was Hulk's power was brought to the forefront.

no, war hulks power, was not HULKS POWER. apocalypse gave hulk a boost, onslaught hulk was hulks potential... they are different scenarios.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Juggernaut didn't think he was a different person. Juggernaut asked him "Why aren't you doing what you normally do?"

How can he do what he normally does if he's never been "normal"? Juggernaut classed him as I do, War HULK. HULK was still there. It wasn't some insane clone of power.

-AC

actually he had a different mind set. you should re-read what you just typed. he asked hulk why he isnt acting "normal". lol. therefor he must have been different 😉

I can't beleive anyone would still argue that Juggs is stronger than Hulk. Hulk was pissed and couldn't break a wall, and then Juggs dents it, well if he was unstoppable as these fanboys claim he should have gone right threw it. This backwards arguement only proves that Juggs power is finite, he can smash "dimensional barriers" but a wall slows him to a screeching halt, not so damn unstoppable now eh. In no way is Juggs stronger than Hulk, and the only reason he got threw those walls is because of the magic that according to these fanboys should have let him walk threw this wall.

When's the last time Juggs blew up a planet with a single punch, never, and he never will. He simply isn't any where near as strong as the Hulk can be.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
I can't beleive anyone would still argue that Juggs is stronger than Hulk.

i cant believe anybody would still argue that hulk has "unlimited" strenght or is stronger than juggernaut. works both ways.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Hulk was pissed and couldn't break a wall, and then Juggs dents it,

yes, its true. except the walls didnt dent. they buldged outwards, ready to burst.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
well if he was unstoppable as these fanboys claim he should have gone right threw it.

and if he would have charged it. he would have. his "unstoppable" applies to his whole body, not just one specific part of his body. such as his fist for example 😉

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
This backwards arguement only proves that Juggs power is finite, he can smash "dimensional barriers" but a wall slows him to a screeching halt,

it didnt slow him down. he wasnt even charging it 😉 you havnt read it.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
not so damn unstoppable now eh.

your still an idiot...

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
In no way is Juggs stronger than Hulk, and the only reason he got threw those walls is because of the magic that according to these fanboys should have let him walk threw this wall.

he could have walked through the wall. but he chose to punch it.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
When's the last time Juggs blew up a planet with a single punch,

whens the last time he tried??? i'm guessing you dont even know when hulk did it...

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
never, and he never will.

pure speculation on your part.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
He simply isn't any where near as strong as the Hulk can be.

your opinion.

I hope Marvel decides to resurrect the Juggernaut give him back his old powers and unleash him against Hulk in a deathmatch where only one will survive so the debate will end cause Juggernaut or Hulk will be dead forever.

Can we please get through this thread without calling anyone an idiot please? Thank you.

"i've never said hulk couldnt rage for 2 days??? please quote me if you think you can..."

Sorry, on my part that was a misinterpretation. Didn't make it clear. What I meant by THAT long wasn't in direct reference to the amount of time (2 days) stated. Just in casual speech like what people say "You're not that good" etc.

"LT is a humanoid. five fingers and all. he isnt just a head. so he manifests himself into a physical body. can hulk beat him???"

In pure physical strength arm wrestling match. No L.T powers besides strength? is LT the same size or larger?

"nobody said there were not other worlds in the universe. but hulks power wasnt comming from another world. it was comming from a completely different universe (heroes reborn)."

Ohhhhh so THAT'S what it comes down to. You believing that another line or Marvel timeline, is another complete universe. Cool cool.....ps...psss....pshahahaha. Sorry sorry, if you think that is credible, go for it. I find it hard to believe that Hulk would stand there going "Grrrr time to drain everyone in the "Ultimates" timeline of their energy now" etc etc. If that is what you're refering to by "Heroes Reborn."

"i'm not the one who doesnt understand what was happening. you are."

Purely based on the fact that I don't agree with you. I just saw it with Mercilous. You can't actually stand it when others don't bow down and suck off your opinion. I don't give two shits who agrees with me or not, otherwise I'd be gone ages ago. I just believe and support what I think is right and what I prefer or agree with. You can't come in and outrightly call someone an idiot just because they are disagreeing with you. Some people genuinely do see it as a clean cut Hulk win, not all of us have the time to sit there analysing each and every single sly and sometimes false way we can put Hulk over the top. I haven't done so. You have waived more than once on your opinion when it's canyoned though, as we know.

"because he didnt hurt him. but he theoretically did. he stopped him yes. hurt him?? no. so he "theoretically" could hurt him."

Back in the lower echelons of this thread, one of the greatest arguments you and IRTMU were producing was "War Hulk/Hulk couldn't hurt him with that sword. It'd have no effect". Now he can theoretically hurt him? Is this a vices trade-off to you? Agree to one Juggernaut weakness and give him another strength.

"Juggernaut is a power from this universe. hulks power is from this universe. what hulk was funneling was NOT from this universe. juggernauts magic didnt function against it. hulk cant produce these results ON HIS OWN."

Dealt with your quite hilariously ridiculous "Universes" theory above.

"no, when juggernaut is powered down he is "imposternaut". when hes powered up he gets bigger, and stronger. "

I've never read a comic (and I have read them) when Juggernaut was enduring this so-called "Imposternaut" run and actually heard or read him being referred to as "Imposternaut". Is it his official name or was it created in this thread? There are two answers: A) It's his official name. B) It was created in this thread. If you answer A, I expect proof.

"cause hulk would get stomped if i tried to argue juggernauts power ups. no ifs ands or buts."

We already know how you feel about Hulk's power ups don't we? Yes. I know enough about Hulk to argue his power ups against Juggernaut's. But that's not where we're going. I was just using an example.

"juggernaut powered up or down, is well within his capabilities all the time."

By that rationale, Juggernaut that you refer to as Imposternaut, shouldn't bother you. So much for being well within his capabilities. If Hulk was put in the same position and I claimed "ImposterHulk", I have the feeling that all the Juggernaut fans would dislike that.

"yes we are playing that game. but 1) "construction worker cain" was still at normal power levels and so was hulk 2) that was supposed to be smart hulk 3) hulk WAS fighting back. and 4) juggernaut can produce the same results without any outside influence. however hulk cannot duplicate power that war had"

1) Yes. 2) Smart Hulk or not, I doubt he walks around thinking he'll be attacked by a magically powered human in street clothing. He had fought Jug before, I wouldn't be surprised if he expected more from him than that. 3) Hulk wasn't fighting back. Juggernaut charged at Hulk, Hulk grabbed him and they went over the waterfall. Then the quicksand thing happened after Juggernaut ran at Hulk and Hulk dodged him. 4) Juggernaut's very powers are outside influence. Lest we forget without them he is nothing. He isn't born a mutant.

"lol, no apocalypse says he wants to help hulk funnel the energy. you obviously havnt read whats going on"

Yeah, he wanted to help Hulk funnel the energy that he was already doing before Apocalypse got involved. Refining is the term.

"apocalypse gave hulk a boost, onslaught hulk was hulks potential... they are different scenarios."

I'm pretty sure you're going to brace with the stance of "Read the comic" (which I own) but I'm going to say so anyway. Apocalypse gave Hulk the means to funnel the energy better, with the celestial tech. That's what he did.

"actually he had a different mind set. you should re-read what you just typed. he asked hulk why he isnt acting "normal". lol. therefor he must have been different"

Different yes, different person (War Hulk, you seem to believe, is seperate from Hulk or anything related) no.

Either way, you and I have gone back and forth back and forth with our respective opinions (I still don't quite understand why you can use Thor's Godforce to say Juggernaut resisted it and then have there be so much controversy over War Hulk, for one). All that is happening now, is we are questioning each others perception and reasoning. Which is fine if you wanna carry on. I just don't see the point in continuing the lengthy replies when it's not getting either of us closer to anything really.

I can go as long as you wanna go for though.

-AC

Originally posted by KillAll
it wasnt a matter of strength that war hulk stopped juggernaut with 😉 please read my other post to a. c. thats what we've been debating. i think its starting to sink in, he might finally understand.

Im not debating on you about that! What Im saying is that he was stopped and that unstoppable or moving foward has no meaning to it no more, especially after what Onslaught did to him

Now Savage Hulk can reach the strength of War Hulk in a matter of time. That is what Im saying. With that level of strength he should be able to defeat Juggernaut.

Originally posted by x_danny_x
Im not debating on you about that! What Im saying is that he was stopped and that unstoppable or moving foward has no meaning to it no more.

He negated the powers that made him unstoppable though.

If an iron bar was stuck to a junkyard magnet crane dealie and I wouldn't be able to pull it off. But if I shut the magnet off and took the iron bar would that mean I was stronger than the magnet?

"If an iron bar was stuck to a junkyard magnet crane dealie and I wouldn't be able to pull it off. But if I shut the magnet off and took the iron bar would that mean I was stronger than the magnet?"

When faced with a power also of outside influence (by being bestowed upon the person) stronger or equal to his own, he falters. Which was my point. Hulk didn't flip and switch and turn him off, he's not a Chucky Doll.

-AC

nice poem.

Nice Poem?

To be perfectly honest, I think we've gone so far off the rails (as a unit when debating) that we've lost all sight of what this is about.

Everyone has brought so many loopholes and technicalities in to defend Juggernaut (not saying some haven't done it for Hulk, but I've said to those who have fanboy'd either, that it's dumb) that it's become a redundant thread. An actual headache. None of the things anyone is replying to NOW have begun to establish a winner. We're never actually gonna agree so all we're doing is proving to each other what our opinion is, when we already know.

EDIT: Apparantly more people do believe Hulk would win than Juggernaut, for the record.

-AC

Can someone please give me an in depth description as to how Juggernaut's "invulnerability" is based on the "laws of reality" Not to be sarcastic..but I must admit..I have never heard this stated anywhere before..

yeah explain

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Hulk didn't flip and switch and turn him off, he's not a Chucky Doll.

EDIT: Apparantly more people do believe Hulk would win than Juggernaut, for the record.

exactly how strong is the Juggerant...he in the above 100 ton class right?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
In pure physical strength arm wrestling match. No L.T powers besides strength? is LT the same size or larger?

LT is the same size as hulk, manifested physically. except he uses ALL his power purely for strength (something like champion). he can funnel as much as he wants (from every reality). can hulk beat him?? i think you will agree the answer is a definate no... if you dont, i dont know what to say about that.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Ohhhhh so THAT'S what it comes down to. You believing that another line or Marvel timeline, is another complete universe. Cool cool.....ps...psss....pshahahaha. Sorry sorry, if you think that is credible, go for it.

it IS credible, because it affected hulks persona. hulk in mainstream was funneling energy from a "pocket universe".

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I find it hard to believe that Hulk would stand there going "Grrrr time to drain everyone in the "Ultimates" timeline of their energy now" etc etc. If that is what you're refering to by "Heroes Reborn."

havnt you ever read the marvel/dc crossover with galactus and darkseid??? just as a reference... silver sufer and one of those damn green lanters say the universes are "claiming what is theres". it was energy. not energy drawn from each and every person in it. but it was energy from the universe itself 😉 think about it. kinda like galactus. he has a phenominal/unlimited amount of energy. he doesnt draw it off of people either. he draws it from planetary mass. thats smaller than a universe also.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Some people genuinely do see it as a clean cut Hulk win

if you see it as a clear cut when, then you they obviously either 1) havnt read juggernaut/hulks previous battles, or do now understand what was going on in them. because its clear that juggernaut at the very least is a match for hulk

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You have waived more than once on your opinion when it's canyoned though, as we know.

what have i changed my opinion on???

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Back in the lower echelons of this thread, one of the greatest arguments you and IRTMU were producing was "War Hulk/Hulk couldn't hurt him with that sword. It'd have no effect". Now he can theoretically hurt him? Is this a vices trade-off to you? Agree to one Juggernaut weakness and give him another strength.

quote me... i didnt say hulks sword wouldnt cut juggernaut. in fact i've said many times i think the sword WOULD cut juggernaut. stop trying to say i said something, when i really didnt. but i did say i dont think it would have killed him.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Dealt with your quite hilariously ridiculous "Universes" theory above.

it isnt a theory. it is comic fact. you just dont like it, so now you refute it. obviously hulks writers (the same ones that say juggernaut is stronger) thought it was a good idea to put hulk as the focal point of 2 universes worth of energy.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I've never read a comic (and I have read them) when Juggernaut was enduring this so-called "Imposternaut" run and actually heard or read him being referred to as "Imposternaut". Is it his official name or was it created in this thread? There are two answers: A) It's his official name. B) It was created in this thread. If you answer A, I expect proof.

it wasnt created in this thread, and its not his official name. another person i talk with calls him the imposternaut 😄

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
By that rationale, Juggernaut that you refer to as Imposternaut, shouldn't bother you. So much for being well within his capabilities. If Hulk was put in the same position and I claimed "ImposterHulk", I have the feeling that all the Juggernaut fans would dislike that.

that juggernaut bothers me for different reasons. not because he is powered up or powered down. its because the writer openly admits he wanted colossus, and colossus was dead. therefor he jammed juggernaut into his position as the strongman on the team. not only that, he changed cain markos history. he changed cain markos personaltiy. therefore i have a problem with ^^^^^^ THIS. i dont have a problem with his current level of power. when you change everything about the person, are they even the same person anymore?? no, they are then an imposter. hence the name "imposternaut". "jobbernaut". you can think of many that would fit.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
1) Yes. 2) Smart Hulk or not, I doubt he walks around thinking he'll be attacked by a magically powered human in street clothing. He had fought Jug before, I wouldn't be surprised if he expected more from him than that. 3) Hulk wasn't fighting back.

hulk wasnt fighting back?? like when juggernaut charged him, and he jumped over cain marko (juggernaut in street clothes) and he fell to the ground. or when juggernaut charged him over the waterfall, hulk wasnt holding his fists up in a punching/threatening manner?? hulk was just defeated before he could mount an AFFECTIVE counter attack. he was fighting back.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Juggernaut charged at Hulk, Hulk grabbed him and they went over the waterfall. Then the quicksand thing happened after Juggernaut ran at Hulk and Hulk dodged him. 4) Juggernaut's very powers are outside influence. Lest we forget without them he is nothing. He isn't born a mutant.

he isnt a magically powered mutant either 😉. there is one little fact you are forgetting. this thread is hulk vs juggernaut. not hulk vs cain marko. juggernaut isnt only cain marko, juggernaut can be anybody who wields the juggernaut power. it just happens to be cain marko. therefor this thread is hulk vs juggernaut (cain marko). not juggernaut vs hulk + heroes reborn universe + main stream universe.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah, he wanted to help Hulk funnel the energy that he was already doing before Apocalypse got involved. Refining is the term.

in a sense you are correct. apocalypse wanted to help hulk funnel energy he had present DURING THE HEROES REBORN RUN. it isnt present, and its not hulks normal state of power. therefor he increased hulks level of power. its not hulks normal potential.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm pretty sure you're going to brace with the stance of "Read the comic" (which I own) but I'm going to say so anyway. Apocalypse gave Hulk the means to funnel the energy better, with the celestial tech. That's what he did.

yes, energy that normal hulk doesnt have access to. what dont you get about that??? lol... i own them also. onslaught/hulk, and war/hulk.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Different yes, different person (War Hulk, you seem to believe, is seperate from Hulk or anything related) no.

i know they had the same body. but hulk was being "mind controlled" in a sense. he was also at a completely different level of power from the normal.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Can someone please give me an in depth description as to how Juggernaut's "invulnerability" is based on the "laws of reality" Not to be sarcastic..but I must admit..I have never heard this stated anywhere before..

maybe thats because you've read a limited amount of comics involving juggernaut and his history. or cyttorak and his magics 😉 you could figure it out yourself, simply by reading about him. but you choose to say its "untrue"..... JUST because you havnt read it.

its the same thing as uru, its magic based. you can strike it physically as much as you want, its not going to hurt it.

you need a magic spell to hurt it...

can no one answer this simple question...lol

Got another question..where does it specifically make reference to War Hulk's power being derived from the Heroes reborn Universe..I must admit I have not read any of the War Hulk issues..

Hey KillAll..aka JuggernautJoe..answer the damb question..lol...

Originally posted by KillAll
maybe thats because you've read a limited amount of comics involving juggernaut and his history. or cyttorak and his magics 😉 you could figure it out yourself, simply by reading about him. but you choose to say its "untrue"..... JUST because you havnt read it.

its the same thing as uru, its magic based. you can strike it physically as much as you want, its not going to hurt it.

you need a magic spell to hurt it...

come on now man..where does it state..that..you know your just making all that stuff up..