Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Like he said, go read some Hulk/Juggernaut fights. The old Juggernaut got battered by old Hulk. The new Juggernaut is a puss quite frankly and the new Hulk almost killed Abomination in about 8 minutes.

Once again, we're giving fact and you're claiming to dismiss bare fact.

-AC

ok..... when did the old hulk "batter" juggernaut??? there was no decisive winner..... and juggernaut clearly had enough strength to match hulk blow for blow.... and he had the intelligence advantage also seeing how hulk wasn't at his peak in intelligence. also.... the new "imposternaut" easily took on rhino and defeated him. something hulk has never proven able to do so easily. so what's your point???

Some 'facts':

1) Juggernaut is 'invincible'.

2) Juggernaut cannot die.

Why are people arguing from these premises? Logically, from the first point, Juggernaut can and has never lost, which is not true. That renders using the first point invalid.

As regards the second point, have the Fantastic Four beaten Dr Doom? Has Hulk beaten Rhino? Has Spider-man beaten the Green Goblin? For the slow among you (yes you), the answer to all of the above is yes. Now, did these victories require the death of the loser? Funnily enough, the answer to all the above is no. Second premise falls.

Now we may proceed.

Originally posted by VENOMfan
Really? Hopefully he snaps Wolverine soon in that case.........

wolvie's back should be able to be "broken" (yes i'm talking about adamantium wolvie). not in the true sense of the word but in the sense that he could be folded like a backwards book and the spine could dislodge at two vertebres. this can in jure his nerves to paraplegicness (god forgive me for bringing up such a serious ailment in terms of comic book talk). i'm sure he could heal from this but considering it took hulk a few pages to heal from his neck break it'd probaly take wolvie a day to heal from his it considering hulk has faster healing abilities than wolvie.

oh yeah sry for going of topic too.

Yea, see, I told you guys juggernaut is invincible. Jeez you all argued with me forever about him getting killed. God.

Psyichal damage, Cannot kill him, or even slow his pace when it comes to injury! And now, since he stays juggey with his helmet off... Cain would be laughing as hulk tried to beat him up, but to no avail.

And, because hulk has no psionic attacks, hulk would battle him for days and days, then finally drop into banner out of exhaustion.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Some 'facts':

1) Juggernaut is 'invincible'.

2) Juggernaut cannot die.

Why are people arguing from these premises? Logically, from the first point, Juggernaut can and has never lost, which is not true. That renders using the first point invalid.

As regards the second point, have the Fantastic Four beaten Dr Doom? Has Hulk beaten Rhino? Has Spider-man beaten the Green Goblin? For the slow among you (yes you), the answer to all of the above is yes. Now, did these victories require the death of the loser? Funnily enough, the answer to all the above is no. Second premise falls.

Now we may proceed.

unfortunately..... there are holes in your theory also. hercules is said to be immortal also..... yet if you disperse enough of his body he will die. but somehow, juggernaut stripped of -MOST- of his power survived such a thing. killing juggernuat is impossible. but you can separate cain marko from his magics and kill cain. or attack the magic's directly. but physically defeating the juggernaut pre-onslaught is impossible. i also think you are using the "good guy always wins" arguement also. but juggernuat usually falls to a psionic attack. not from physical blows. which is something that he has proven is incapable of doing. so he is Unstoppable, and he IS immortal. "hence forth, whoever reads these words will forever more be a human juggernaut" pretty much says it all. that, plus the fact that he doesn't age should say something.

No, no I'm not.

I'm merely point out the stupidity of the logic that says 'someone is invincible', or 'someone cannot die' as a reason why they will come out on top of a battle.

Nothing you said refuted anything I mentioned, nor pointed out any holes. You went off on a tangent.

'but juggernuat usually falls to a psionic attack. not from physical blows. which is something that he has proven is incapable of doing. so he is Unstoppable, and he IS immortal.'

Now there's a logical hole.

YUP.

"ok..... when did the old hulk "batter" juggernaut??? there was no decisive winner..... "

One of the combatants at the mercy of the other pretty much says to me "I just handed your ass back you". Dunno how you view wins and losses.

Also I-Dragon, you say he hasn't got normal skin but then openly admit that he bleeds. He bleed so he can be cut. He bleeds from grazes on his arms. Just like any NORMAL human. So a sword repeatedly swung at the neck would sever it.

I am also baffled by you vehemently referring to the "new" Juggernaut as if he was a God. Then claiming he is an imposter. No, it's Juggernaut. He's just shit now. Deal.

I'm not more of a fanboy than you because Hulk isn't even my favourite character, The Silver Surfer is. I even said that I really liked Juggernaut if you bothered to actually read my posts. However, liking him or not doesn't mean I am gonna put him above someone he cannot beat and someone who HAS beaten him before. As Vic said, loss doesn't equal death. Juggernaut has LOST to Hulk. LOST to Thor. LOST to Vision and many times LOST to the X-Men. Whether he is still alive or not, those are facts. So seeing as this is Juggernaut VS Hulk, that wraps everything up into a neat little package.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"ok..... when did the old hulk "batter" juggernaut??? there was no decisive winner..... "

One of the combatant at the mercy of the other pretty much says to me "I just handed your ass back you". Dunno how you view wins and losses.

Also I-Dragon, you say he hasn't got normal skin but the openly admit that he bleeds. He bleed so he can be cut. He bleeds from grazes on his arms. Just like any NORMAL human. So a sword repeatedly swung at the neck would sever it.

I'm not more of a fanboy than you because Hulk isn't even my favourite character, The Silver Surfer is. I even said that I really liked Juggernaut if you bothered to actually read my posts. However, liking him or not doesn't mean I am gonna put him above someone he cannot beat and someone who HAS beaten him before. As Vic said, loss doesn't equal death. Juggernaut has LOST to Hulk. LOST to Thor. LOST to Vision and many times LOST to the X-Men. Whether he is still alive or not, those are facts. So seeing as this is Juggernaut VS Hulk, that wraps everything up into a neat little package.

-AC

harumph!!!!!! you should really read the issue.... it was hulk who was then at juggernauts mercy in hulk 172...... he was bout to pounce on hulk who was to simple minded to understand that juggernaut couldn't be hurt. unless you are talking about hulk 457.... which just so happens that he was not only aided by celestial tech (juggernaut is no match for celestial tech even on his best day, but then again NEITHER IS HULK) and he was the focal point of 2 universes worth of energy. had he not had this MAJOR upgrade in power, it would have been a normal hulk/juggernaut battle. the outcome would have been different provided hulk didn't have any outside help.

also... the x-men have only taken juggernaut down using his ONE WEAKNESS. that would be telepathic assault.

not to mention the only time thor has beaten juggernaut is when he depowered him by negating the mystical energy that makes him juggernaut in the first place. in all the other thor/juggernaut clash's he beats thor like a dirty rug.

hulk has never physically subdued juggernaut except as war. which is NOT his optimal level of power. i also suggest you read more about juggernaut before posting something against him. he doesn't have normal skin. if you are speaking of shatterstars sword which cut him.... then you would also know the sword was mystically forged which is why it could cut juggernaut in the first place. had it been a normal sword it would have just moved across the surface of his Unbreakable skin.

but Nightcrawler threw a torch at his face in uncanny x-men 112 and it hurt him?

"also... the x-men have only taken juggernaut down using his ONE WEAKNESS. that would be telepathic assault."

Puts away the ol' "He's unstoppable" theory the doesn't it. He is stoppable as proved by you just then.

Also, I'm not ONLY referring to the Shatterstar sword cut. He has has buildings fall on him and walk out with cuts on his arms. He has normal skin. Tougher maybe, but able to be cut and broken.

War is nowhere near Hulk's highest power level and he overpowered Juggernaut. Killable or not, Hulk has and can beat Juggernaut. You don't seem to understand the concept of losing.

"it was hulk who was then at juggernauts mercy in hulk 172...... he was bout to pounce on hulk who was to simple minded to understand that juggernaut couldn't be hurt."

About to? Juggernaut was about to have Hulk at his mercy......you assume. Hulk has had Juggernaut on the floor ready to behead him. We clearly have different views of what being at someone's mercy constitutes.

-AC.

...hulk cuts off his helmet and raises his sword "so: nothing can stop juggernaut? well here're two thins that can. my power....and your imminent beheading.".....now that sounds like being at the mercy of someone...no one was at the mercy of anyone in issue 172

well in the end who did apololypse pick to deem the WAR status? i figure apocolypse knows a little about who's stronger.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"also... the x-men have only taken juggernaut down using his ONE WEAKNESS. that would be telepathic assault."

Puts away the ol' "He's unstoppable" theory the doesn't it. He is stoppable as proved by you just then.

Also, I'm not ONLY referring to the Shatterstar sword cut. He has has buildings fall on him and walk out with cuts on his arms. He has normal skin. Tougher maybe, but able to be cut and broken.

War is nowhere near Hulk's highest power level and he overpowered Juggernaut. Killable or not, Hulk has and can beat Juggernaut. You don't seem to understand the concept of losing.

"it was hulk who was then at juggernauts mercy in hulk 172...... he was bout to pounce on hulk who was to simple minded to understand that juggernaut couldn't be hurt."

About to? Juggernaut was about to have Hulk at his mercy......you assume. Hulk has had Juggernaut on the floor ready to behead him. We clearly have different views of what being at someone's mercy constitutes.

-AC.

yes and physically being knocked unconscious is having someone at thier mercy also. clearly we do have different views. as i said war hulk is the most powerful version of hulk. he was throwing the great pyramids around with ease. all he has to do is summon the strength that is needed. no getting mad no nothing about it. just summon it. how is any other hulk stronger than that???? that isn't even hulks normal level of power. he has never proven to be able to defeat juggernuat without having some outside source help him please feel free to state when he has. and then i will accept it. also, if you are talking about when juggernaut had a building dropped on him in the exiles crossover then you clearly do not know of the juggernauts power. he was in a universe that was different from our own, and was being severely depleted of his power. which hence, he can be cut then. but otherwise he cannot be cut. his durability isn't based on how tough his skin is pal. it has never been cut..... not even by wolverines claws. when at full power that is.

Originally posted by Wynndar
...hulk cuts off his helmet and raises his sword "so: nothing can stop juggernaut? well here're two thins that can. my power....and your imminent beheading.".....now that sounds like being at the mercy of someone...no one was at the mercy of anyone in issue 172

this isn't even hulks normal level of power. fine, you want quotes.....

hulk - "what does it take to stop y--"

Juggernaut - "stop me?! Dont you get it yet? nothin' can stop me! Nothing on this planet! Nothing in this galaxy! Nothing In The universe can stop me!

hulk - "Not giving me time to recover..... didn't realize full extent....... of....his......power.....still don't know.......head swimming.....got used to pantheon covering my back......sloppy so sloppy........can't....think......CAN'T STOP HIM....." hulk was actually thinking this

red skull - "STOP, I don't want him dead marko. not just yet. he can be of use to us. "

guess what pal, hulk was fighting back, juggernaut overpowerd his vaunted healing factor. and he knocked him unconsciouss while both were running at normal power levels

now let me ask you this let's pit war hulk against a 50 ft tall juggernaut that was ripping through dimensional barriers with his fist. is war hulk more powerful than that?? even war hulk wasn't ripping through time/space with his fist regardless of how strong he was. maestro??? savage hulk??? none were that powerful. none will ever be that powerful....... whatever dude.

WAR IS NOT THE STRONGEST HULK!!!!....no but Guilt Hulk...who is a 50ft version of Hulk would....u r talking about professor fighting Jugs....u dont have to quote it, I own it...that was all just poetic justice...professor had only been around for a couple issues....his problem was that he was just too cocky, he figured that since he was the Hulk he could just be cool and beat anyone....he rarely ever got mad...his fight with Jugs was not one of those times...again...although i have proved it to u 20 times already...WAR IS NOT THE STRONGEST HULK!!!!!

u should read a few issues later....the Hulk fights this creature Peacemeal for a little bit and has a great deal of trouble with him, simply because he has no experience as the hulk....however, in the issue that Red Skull brainwashes Hulk, Jugs knocks out peacemeal with one punch....Jugs is superior to professor Hulk...hoever if professor ever fought Jugs when he was angry this would be a different story

Originally posted by Wynndar
WAR IS NOT THE STRONGEST HULK!!!!....no but Guilt Hulk...who is a 50ft version of Hulk would.......WAR IS NOT THE STRONGEST HULK!!!!!

when did you prove that war wasn't the strongest?? all you said is that he wasn't. you didn't provide any proof. guilt hulk is incarnated???? last i saw he was just a version within the mind of banner/hulk. do you think he's going to be powerful enough to tear down dimensional barriers?? he will be able to "stop" juggernaut using physical force??? nope, it won't happen. i think you like hulk a bit to much.

we had this discussion like 2 months ago