Juggernaut or The Hulk?

"when did hulks punchs hurt him?? i swear i believe that you are recieving second hand information and you have not read what you talk about. and this post is exactly why."

Wow, for someone who owns every Juggernaut appearance you don't know much. Hulk #172, remember that? First time they fought? When Hulk started to overpower him, Juggernaut slammed him into a wall and claimed he was gonna break his neck. While he's still leaning over from charging Hulk smashes him into the ground and throws him into the air. Juggernaut comes down and torpedos into Hulk then assumes he's won then Hulk swung him around by the helmet and hurled him into a mountain after another ram, tearing his helmet off. Hulk then walks away, Juggernaut gets up and Cyclops blasts him in the head when the X-Men appear and he goes down like a sack of excrement.

When I find my comic where Vision batters Juggernaut, I'll gladly scan it and show you. But as you don't believe two of my three claims (Hulk's punches hurting hi or Hulk winning and Cyclops knocking him out) I'll prove it. Which I shouldn't have to do if you already own all Juggernaut appearances.

Granted it's after the two, minimal powered mental blasts, but that doesn't in anyway affect his so-called physical unstoppability. Yet the Optic Blasts still whooped him out of commission.

Might wanna actually get ever Juggernaut appearance rather than claiming you have them.

-AC

Originally posted by Vash TFA
A hyperbole is an exaggeration used to create emphasis. However.. since it's not an exaggertion, it's not hyperbole. 😛

Nobody was able to stop him in that state, he had to break free of the control he was under and stop himself.

Of course it is an exaggeration. It's the biggest one ever.

And THAT guy knowwwws what he's talking about. In reference to Vic.

-AC

'However.. against the Juggernaut that advantage is not so great, because regardless of how mad and or strong Hulk gets, he can't hurt Juggernaut with his punches, he can't knock him out. The best he could ever do (when not super charged by cosmic energy from 2 universes, decked out in celestial armor and under Apocalypse's control) '

It seems odd that if Jug is literally invulnerable, that you need to discredit the War Hulk part (which you seem to be mis-remembering, Juggernaut was prostrate and helpless) perhaps he was vulnerable there? So perhaps...

Ah forget it.

Exactly.

Regardless of augmentation or not, he was against a power that he was getting beat up by. He isn't invulnerable. Just highly durable, HIGHLY.

-AC

Juggernaut IS invulnerable. And not that nigh invulnerable stuff like Rouge has. Juggernuat is.. completely invulnerable to any physical attack.

That optic blast did NOT knock him out. It as just for effect, because it wouldn't of been a big enough finish for Prof. X and Marvel Girl to just look at him and he falls down.

Hulk tossed him around during that fight, and that's all, he never inflicted any pain or injury on Juggernaut during that whole battle. He tore his helmet off while swinging him, and Prof. X and Marvel Girl knocked him out with a psi blast.. and how dare you say that was a "minimal powered" mental blast it came from 2 of the most powerful psionics in the whole of the marvel universe. Xavier.. the hands down most powerful mutant telepath could of taken Juggernaut down by himself as long as the helmet was off. Cyclops played no part in that knock out, it was just to add a visual effect.

Why you won't accept that he's invulnerable I don't understand. But here is evidence enough to support that he is.

Instead of moving out of the way,he lets Spider-Man drive a gas tanker right into him. Not only is he totally unmoving from the impact,but he walks out of the resulting gas inferno on fire and completely unconcerned. --The Amazing Spider-Man #230

The Juggernaut allowed Dazzler to futily blast all her energy directly into him at point blank range until she was drained. She fell unconscious as he stood over her completely unharmed. --Uncanny X-Men #218

When hit so hard by Rogue of the X-Men that the shockwave from the punch shattered every window of the street,The Juggernaut simply stood there looking down on her with his arms crossed. --Uncanny X-Men #218

The Juggernaut has on two occasions allowed Cannonball to blast directly into him. And both times Cannonball was knocked out of blast mode and barely conscious while The Juggernaut remained totally unmoved and unphased.

The Juggernaut has withstood even Thor's godforce(which caused Galactus to flee for his life on one occasion,and shattered the prime Celestial's protective dome on another) with absolutely no physical damage whatsoever. --Thor #412

He withstood a direct blast from Stellaris's Celestial armor with zero effect to his person. The sheer energy radius of the blast hitting him was so powerful it created a large chasm in the Earth. --Thunderstrike #2

Harmlessly absorbed a million volts of electricity. --Amazing Spider-Man #229

He had a vat of molten steel dumped on him by Deadpool and continued to fight uneffected and awash with flame. --Deadpool vol.1 #3

In a fight with the New Warriors,Firestar tried to stop him by heating his armor to the point where it became white hot. The Juggernaut didn't even acknowledge her attack whatsoever. --Thor #412

The Juggernaut walked right through a stream of Chamber's full power bio energy blast. Despite Chamber exerting so much effort into it he fell unconscious in the attempt. --Generation-X #61

Took a direct blast from the new-look Cyclops that was described by him as being able to "rip a small planet in half" with a smile as The Juggernaut's only reaction. --Cyclops #1

There has NEVER been an instance in which Juggernaut, unless stripped or drained of his powers has shed even an single drop of blood or felt the slightest pain from any attack. The only way he can be harmed is if his powers are removed, drained or otherwise negated by some supernatural force, or struck by an incredibly powerful magical attack or enchanted weapon. The only time he could feel pain is if it was inflicted by magic or mental pain caused by a telepathic attack. Nothing physical can harm him. Not even Wolverine's claws, and believe me he's tried before to zero effect only to get ***** slapped for his efforts. I'll post a link to that if I can find it also.

cool

I'll deal with the first point last.

"That optic blast did NOT knock him out. It as just for effect, because it wouldn't of been a big enough finish for Prof. X and Marvel Girl to just look at him and he falls down."

Look! EVERYBODY! We have a Mutant amongst us. What's his power? The ability to say that the writers didn't mean what they wrote, but they actually meant what he wants them to mean.

No, Cyclops did it because it was needed and it would work, it did.

"Hulk tossed him around during that fight, and that's all, he never inflicted any pain or injury on Juggernaut during that whole battle."

Oh....oh right. So the expression on Juggernaut's face when Hulk pounded him into the ground was just out of fear of getting his lycra messed up?

"He tore his helmet off while swinging him, and Prof. X and Marvel Girl knocked him out with a psi blast.. and how dare you say that was a "minimal powered" mental blast it came from 2 of the most powerful psionics in the whole of the marvel universe. Xavier.. the hands down most powerful mutant telepath could of taken Juggernaut down by himself as long as the helmet was off."

How......DARE I? You're getting a little carried away son. Sit down, you've got your cup of cocoa, the world is fine. Now relax. I never doubt their power, I just said they were minimal blasts coz they were. They weren't full power or even medium power coz they didn't wanna kill him. Cyclops, once again, was not there for visual effect. He was there because the writers obviously thought he would have the power to take him down and, well being an X-Man, had a right to be there. You are actually going so far as to try and change what the writers say. Despicable.

"Instead of moving out of the way,he lets Spider-Man drive a gas tanker right into him. Not only is he totally unmoving from the impact,but he walks out of the resulting gas inferno on fire and completely unconcerned."

Hulk did the same with an Atomic Bomb. Now what?

"The Juggernaut allowed Dazzler to futily blast all her energy directly into him at point blank range until she was drained. She fell unconscious as he stood over her completely unharmed."

Dazzler? You mean the older version of what is essentially Jubilee? Give me a break. That's about as impressive as saying adult humans are the best for not falling down when hit by a baby. I have the all the comics you refer to and the very fact that you are bringing up all these incidents like they are pivotal in proving Juggernaut's invulnerability to physical attack. Deadpool has taken shots from Dazzler. She's a nobody.

"The Juggernaut has on two occasions allowed Cannonball to blast directly into him. And both times Cannonball was knocked out of blast mode and barely conscious while The Juggernaut remained totally unmoved and unphased."

This was impressive but erm....there was one dude who erm....jumped infront of a train going way beyond top speed, a freight train. I remember him stopping it dead with no hands. I don't remember his name but he was big and green.

"When hit so hard by Rogue of the X-Men that the shockwave from the punch shattered every window of the street,The Juggernaut simply stood there looking down on her with his arms crossed."

How many more times are you gonna name nobodies? Really. Withstanding Rogue's punches isn't a debate winner. I really like how you've posted all this with a swelling chest as if you're gonna close the debate when upon further inspection, all of your points are complete bullplop.

"The Juggernaut has withstood even Thor's godforce(which caused Galactus to flee for his life on one occasion,and shattered the prime Celestial's protective dome on another) with absolutely no physical damage whatsoever."

I consider this quite bad writing but it was an impressive display. However, Hulk has taken multiple shots from Ultimate Thor who is very nearly, if not equally as powerful as Godforce Thor when at his most powerful and just laughed. Bearing in mind Juggernaut wears armour. Hulk strolls around in ripped jeans.

"He withstood a direct blast from Stellaris's Celestial armor with zero effect to his person. The sheer energy radius of the blast hitting him was so powerful it created a large chasm in the Earth."

Hmm, I can't say when I read this comic that it filled me with excitement and struck me with amazingly well written story but again, an incredible feat by Juggernaut. Hulk has been shot with a ray gun capable of putting a hole through Earth. He laughed it off and healed it up. Anything Juggernaut does, Hulk can surpass it.

"Harmlessly absorbed a million volts of electricity."

Again, I refer to Hulk absorbing about a million waves of Atomic radiation. Much more harmful and he walked out of it.

"He had a vat of molten steel dumped on him by Deadpool and continued to fight uneffected and awash with flame."

Deadpool has fought both, been battered by both. Guess who he's afraid of and guess who he's not afraid of? Yeah. Guess who he thinks is uncomparable to The Hulk? Yeah.

"In a fight with the New Warriors,Firestar tried to stop him by heating his armor to the point where it became white hot. The Juggernaut didn't even acknowledge her attack whatsoever."

Impressive. That sort of attack couldn't happen on Hulk though coz he doesn't have armour. He is however extremely resistant to heat as we know.

"The Juggernaut walked right through a stream of Chamber's full power bio energy blast. Despite Chamber exerting so much effort into it he fell unconscious in the attempt."

As powerful as Chamber is, not exactly like going face to face with Iron-Man in his most powerful suit ever and just laughing at his blasts is it?

"Took a direct blast from the new-look Cyclops that was described by him as being able to "rip a small planet in half" with a smile as The Juggernaut's only reaction."

Nowadays it's common place for Juggernaut to not feel Cyclops blasts. All of these feats are pointless because all the ones you've mentioned, Hulk could do and/or surpass. It's not Juggernaut Vs Nobodies. It's Juggernaut Vs The Hulk so try to keep it on topic, which is something I'll address very very soon.

"There has NEVER been an instance in which Juggernaut, unless stripped or drained of his powers has shed even an single drop of blood or felt the slightest pain from any attack. The only way he can be harmed is if his powers are removed, drained or otherwise negated by some supernatural force, or struck by an incredibly powerful magical attack or enchanted weapon. The only time he could feel pain is if it was inflicted by magic or mental pain caused by a telepathic attack. Nothing physical can harm him. Not even Wolverine's claws, and believe me he's tried before to zero effect only to get ***** slapped for his efforts. I'll post a link to that if I can find it also."

Wolverine's claws have been used on Hulk to nigh unimpactful result also. Your point being? Never shed blood ever? Jesus Christ this is getting out of hand. I remember him laying in the crater after Onslaught met him for the first time and he was bleeding from the mouth and arms. NEVER felt physical pain? Completely invulnerable? Watch this...

"Juggernaut IS invulnerable. And not that nigh invulnerable stuff like Rouge has. Juggernuat is.. completely invulnerable to any physical attack."

Completely invulnerable to physical attack would mean he doesn't get effected by it AT ALL. Not just pain, it means he wouldn't move, wouldn't jolt and wouldn't know it was happening. Yet Hulk, War Hulk, Cyclops, Vision, Colossus, Psylocke, Beast and Thor seemed to prove differently, augmentation or not. If he was invulnerable to physical attack, he would never ever ever be hurt or never ever be MOVED OR AFFECTED IN ANY WAY and it's a fact that from his creation till now, he has experienced pain and has been handled.

in·vul·ner·a·ble: (in-vulnr--bl)
adj.
1). Immune to attack; impregnable.
2. Impossible to damage, injure, or wound.

Well he isn't immune to attack or impregnable. He is vulnerable to psionics and can be attacked. The result of the attack, in this INSTANCE is irrelavent. The fact that he CAN BE attacked proves on one notion that he isn't completely invulnerable. Stop saying he is vulnerable to psionics but he's invulnerable. He's vulnerable to something therefore he's not invulnerable. Secondly, impossible to damage, injure or wound. Damage? Not too sure if he can be majorly damaged but I doubt it. To his credit. Injure? Well he has bled and there is such things as mental injury so no he's not impossible to injure. Wound? He's bled before and will again. Regardless of permanent outcome or not, he can and has been wounded.

How do you spell "Whooping"?

*Dusts shoulder*

-AC

oooooo nice

'How do you spell "Whooping"?'

You've written it there, see.

Oh. I see what you were doing.

ummm....i know ive mentioned it about 7 times now.....but Jugs said "ARRRGGHHH u hurt me!" when nightcrawler threw a burning stick at his face in uncanny x-men......err 110 i think was the issue...if not 110 its right around there...and that was classic Jugs, not post Onslaught so no excuses, he can be hurt....yes, a burning stick....from nightcrawler

I will just say right now that if you don't believe Hulk will win for whatever strange reason, fair enough. I wont make you believe otherwise Vash.

However, don't come at me and say "But he's invulnerable". According to the meaning of the word, he isn't and never was. So don't come trying to prove fact wrong with your own opinion.

Man, I rule.

-AC

That was no whooping, that was absolutely pathetic. First, Cyclops, didn't knock him out, he couldn't have. It's not just nowadays that Cyclops blasts can't hurt him, they never could. Not even during their first encounter. Infact during their first encounter Cyclops himself describes his beams were about as effective as a squirt gun against Juggernaut. So from the first to the last battle they've ever had, those beams have been nothing to Juggernaut, they don't even register.

Second, Ultimate books don't count for anything, completely different power scale for Ultimate Thor, he doesn't even compare to traditional Thor. So Ultimate Hulk and Ultimate Thor going toe-to-toe means precisely jack.

Third, you can't judge the power of those mental blasts Xavier uses, because there's no visual to gauge apon. You can't see them in that picture.. that's why they had Cyclops blast him.. so there'd be something to look at. Xavier couldn't kill Juggernaut if he tried, he used his full power on Juggernaut in their first encounter and managed to put him in a coma though.

Deadpool does fear Juggernaut actually.. let's see a qoute infact to illustrate that here we go..

"Hey,son of a gun--I'm still alive! YOWZA! Now did anyone get the number of that wrecking ball? Did he say 'Jughead-Naut'? Is that someone who searches for Archies? I mean,'cause if it's who I THINK it is,I quit,game's over,Mom's callin' me,I'm late for dinner."

-Deadpool learns who crumbled the building he was standing on with one punch,Deapool:Circle Chase #2

See, Deadpool knows when he's in over his head.

As for your idea of what invulnerable means. It's defined as being unable to be harmed or wounded. Which Juggernaut is as far as physical force is concerned. Being knocked over, sure he can get knocked over, he does have a normal human equilibrium and be knocked off balance, but hell so can the Hulk. But no physical blows can cause him any pain or damage.

As for seeing him say "Ah, you hurt me" or whatever, either he was being sarcastic.. or it was just poor writing from someone who didn't grasp the concept of just how invulnerable the character was. One of Thor's writers actually called Juggernaut a mutant.. but we all know that's not true aswell, don't we? Writers make mistakes, just like you do.

As for Onslaught, I didn't really want to get into that. Because that saga is full of so many plot holes it's not even funny. Onslaught pulls a gem out of Juggernaut's chest that was never there. Traps Juggernaut in the crimson cosmos and though he's actually been there numerous times before, for that books purpose they say it's his first trip. Juggernaut encounters Cytorrak himself while there, and though he has already faced him before and defeated him in battle once he seems shocked to see him.. and he looks absolutely nothing like his previous appearance. The writer of that particular book, had no idea what he was writing, he didn't do any back checking and just completley screwed up. One minute he has Juggernaut begging for Onslaught not to kill him, to have Onslaught reply "That would be impossible, You are completely indestructible while connected to your magics." which is strange.. because it's the one accurate thing anyone said that issue. However, Onslaught ignores what he just said and rips the non-existant gem out of Cain's indestructible chest. Now.. I can maybe understand him being able to do that.. Onslaught was a being of pure psionic energy.. one of Juggernaut's 2 weaknesses. But pulling out something that was never there to begin with.. that's just.. I don't know if there's a word for that.. it's just dumb. That would be like if the Hulk Busters sucked the gamma radiation out of Hulk with a common household sponge.. and to top it off.. draw the Hulk orange throughout the whole issue and pretend that's the way it'd always been.

You could read Juggernaut's bio and see he's indestructible. http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=96

even marvel.com lists him as invulnerable

How official does it have to be for you to get the picture?

i think jugs would still pull it off in the end.. maybe... Hulk just isn't "smart" enough to figure out how to stop "the unstoppable". And "yes" i have become "quotation" happy"."

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Wow, for someone who owns every Juggernaut appearance you don't know much. Hulk #172, remember that? First time they fought? When Hulk started to overpower him, Juggernaut slammed him into a wall and claimed he was gonna break his neck. While he's still leaning over from charging Hulk smashes him into the ground and throws him into the air. Juggernaut comes down and torpedos into Hulk then assumes he's won then Hulk swung him around by the helmet and hurled him into a mountain after another ram, tearing his helmet off. Hulk then walks away, Juggernaut gets up and Cyclops blasts him in the head when the X-Men appear and he goes down like a sack of excrement.

yea i know what happened. but i think YOU should check what happens in EVERY OTHER APPEARANCE of juggernaut in the xmen when cyclops blasts him. his beam has NO effect on juggernaut. but professor x and jean did........ thats why he fell, not becaues of cyclops. you are dumb..
also again i state, when did hulk ever hurt juggernaut?? juggernaut took every blow and never uttered a word of pain.....

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

When I find my comic where Vision batters Juggernaut, I'll gladly scan it and show you. But as you don't believe two of my three claims (Hulk's punches hurting hi or Hulk winning and Cyclops knocking him out) I'll prove it. Which I shouldn't have to do if you already own all Juggernaut appearances.

if you are talking about hulk 403, where vision "tries" to stick his hand in juggernauts head to disorent him....... vision was far from battering juggernaut around.... again, these are false claims made by you. and again your arguements are getting stupid-er. because it did not happen the way you said it did.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Granted it's after the two, minimal powered mental blasts, but that doesn't in anyway affect his so-called physical unstoppability. Yet the Optic Blasts still whooped him out of commission.

no, the telepathic assault is what did him in. cyclops has stated several times that his optic blast wasnt even registering against juggernaut... (again) stop being such an idiot.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Might wanna actually get ever Juggernaut appearance rather than claiming you have them.

you might wanna come up with some better arguements because you are getting a little carried away with the things that NEVER HAPPENED.....

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

No, Cyclops did it because it was needed and it would work, it did.

again...... check all cyclops/juggernaut battles. not just that one. whenever he uses his optic blast on juggernaut by itself, it has no effect. it doesnt move him, and it causes no pain.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Oh....oh right. So the expression on Juggernaut's face when Hulk pounded him into the ground was just out of fear of getting his lycra messed up?

give us a pic with juggernaut in pain...... i'd really like to see it (from hulks punchs)

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

How......DARE I? You're getting a little carried away son. Sit down, you've got your cup of cocoa, the world is fine. Now relax. I never doubt their power, I just said they were minimal blasts coz they were. They weren't full power or even medium power coz they didn't wanna kill him. Cyclops, once again, was not there for visual effect. He was there because the writers obviously thought he would have the power to take him down and, well being an X-Man, had a right to be there. You are actually going so far as to try and change what the writers say. Despicable.

but his blast does not affect him..... you need to check all thier appearances instead of just one. it just so happens that 2 telepaths were present. odd isnt it?? i also agree they were probably not the most powerful blasts that professor x and jean could muster. that would have been over kill. juggernaut is just as susceptible to psionic attack as the average human. and it wouldnt take much to put an average human down with psionics....

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Hulk did the same with an Atomic Bomb. Now what?

what issue????

.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

This was impressive but erm....there was one dude who erm....jumped infront of a train going way beyond top speed, a freight train. I remember him stopping it dead with no hands. I don't remember his name but he was big and green.

but still, cannonball at the time was supposed to be "unstoppable" as well. but guess who prevailed???

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

How many more times are you gonna name nobodies? Really. Withstanding Rogue's punches isn't a debate winner. I really like how you've posted all this with a swelling chest as if you're gonna close the debate when upon further inspection, all of your points are complete bullplop.

i agree, but juggernaut with -atleast half his power drained did fight colossus and rogue at the same time, and was winning.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I consider this quite bad writing but it was an impressive display. However, Hulk has taken multiple shots from Ultimate Thor who is very nearly, if not equally as powerful as Godforce Thor when at his most powerful and just laughed. Bearing in mind Juggernaut wears armour. Hulk strolls around in ripped jeans.

well, the armor isnt what makes him invulnerable...... well i guess it should help some. but taking shots from thor, and taking the godforce are 2 totally different things....... the godforce was one of the single most deadly blasts in the universe...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Hmm, I can't say when I read this comic that it filled me with excitement and struck me with amazingly well written story but again, an incredible feat by Juggernaut. Hulk has been shot with a ray gun capable of putting a hole through Earth. He laughed it off and healed it up. Anything Juggernaut does, Hulk can surpass it.

i doubt hulk can surpass it. just because you say he can??? but again, it has to do with juggernauts durability, so you say it's "bad writing".

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Again, I refer to Hulk absorbing about a million waves of Atomic radiation. Much more harmful and he walked out of it.

radiation is the source of hulks power. thats not going to kill him. its going to make him stronger...... apples and oranges. (refer to maestro)

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Deadpool has fought both, been battered by both. Guess who he's afraid of and guess who he's not afraid of? Yeah. Guess who he thinks is uncomparable to The Hulk? Yeah.

i think deadpool was just caught up in the moment. if it had been juggernaut he probably woulda just ran...... or you could also call it bad writing (sound farmiliar???)

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Impressive. That sort of attack couldn't happen on Hulk though coz he doesn't have armour. He is however extremely resistant to heat as we know.

i doubt hes anywhere near as resistant as juggernaut...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

As powerful as Chamber is, not exactly like going face to face with Iron-Man in his most powerful suit ever and just laughing at his blasts is it?

i doubt iron man could muster a blast more powerful than thors godforce or other things that juggernaut has -harmlessly- taken.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Nowadays it's common place for Juggernaut to not feel Cyclops blasts. All of these feats are pointless because all the ones you've mentioned, Hulk could do and/or surpass. It's not Juggernaut Vs Nobodies. It's Juggernaut Vs The Hulk so try to keep it on topic, which is something I'll address very very soon.

this is where you are contradicting yourself. if anything, cyclopse has -never- had an effect on juggernaut. i wish you would realize that. please point us in the right direction allmight comic book god..... which issue has cyclopse ever hurt juggernaut by himself????

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Wolverine's claws have been used on Hulk to nigh unimpactful result also. Your point being? Never shed blood ever? Jesus Christ this is getting out of hand. I remember him laying in the crater after Onslaught met him for the first time and he was bleeding from the mouth and arms. NEVER felt physical pain? Completely invulnerable? Watch this...

wolverine has penetrated hulks skin though. but juggernauts??? NO.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Completely invulnerable to physical attack would mean he doesn't get effected by it AT ALL. Not just pain, it means he wouldn't move, wouldn't jolt and wouldn't know it was happening. Yet Hulk, War Hulk, Cyclops, Vision, Colossus, Psylocke, Beast and Thor seemed to prove differently, augmentation or not. If he was invulnerable to physical attack, he would never ever ever be hurt or never ever be MOVED OR AFFECTED IN ANY WAY and it's a fact that from his creation till now, he has experienced pain and has been handled.

juggernaut has felt pain only under extreme circumstances. again mighty comic book god, point us in the right direction. lead us to the light. colossus got knocked out with a single punch (twice) i doubt he has ever effectively mounted an attack against juggernaut. even thor has never harmed juggernaut until he negated the mystical energy that makes cain marko - juggernaut. hulk too has never proven able to harm him physically or over power him (until he was upgraded). cyclopse, how many times can you refer to him when he does nothing????? vision again......when did he beat up juggernaut???

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

in·vul·ner·a·ble: (in-vulnr--bl)
adj.
1). Immune to attack; impregnable.
2. Impossible to damage, injure, or wound.

which juggernaut has pretty much proven since he was created until rescently when his powers began to decrease.... thanks for looking it up though.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Well he isn't immune to attack or impregnable. He is vulnerable to psionics and can be attacked. The result of the attack, in this INSTANCE is irrelavent. The fact that he CAN BE attacked proves on one notion that he isn't completely invulnerable. Stop saying he is vulnerable to psionics but he's invulnerable. He's vulnerable to something therefore he's not invulnerable. Secondly, impossible to damage, injure or wound. Damage? Not too sure if he can be majorly damaged but I doubt it. To his credit. Injure? Well he has bled and there is such things as mental injury so no he's not impossible to injure. Wound? He's bled before and will again. Regardless of permanent outcome or not, he can and has been wounded.

we are trying to get a few simple facts through your head. but you just refute them, so we have to keep repeating ourselves. juggernaut is immune to physical pain. not psionics. they are apples and oranges (have you ever heard this phrase???). hulk has no means of telepathically assaulting juggernaut -hence- he cannot hurt him. i think its already been proven that hulk -nor anybody save onslaught- can hurt true juggernaut physically.
..

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

How do you spell "Whooping"?

*Dusts shoulder*

i dunno, hows it feel????

"That was no whooping, that was absolutely pathetic. First, Cyclops, didn't knock him out, he couldn't have. It's not just nowadays that Cyclops blasts can't hurt him, they never could. Not even during their first encounter. Infact during their first encounter Cyclops himself describes his beams were about as effective as a squirt gun against Juggernaut. So from the first to the last battle they've ever had, those beams have been nothing to Juggernaut, they don't even register."

Yes it was a whooping, don't hate just because you can't get up to me on this. I'm hard to touch, don't feel bad. Now, you say Cyclops didn't knock him out, he couldn't have. Well, not alone anyway. Fact of the matter is he downed him in that comic with an optic blast after the suggestion from Xavier. You appear to have that mutant power that allows you to change what the writers meant in order to suit you. Well you'd need it coz that's the only way you erase the fact that Juggernaut was downed by Cyclops.

"Second, Ultimate books don't count for anything, completely different power scale for Ultimate Thor, he doesn't even compare to traditional Thor. So Ultimate Hulk and Ultimate Thor going toe-to-toe means precisely jack."

What in the hell...? Why do they mean jack? It's an official and accepted continuity. Stop palming things off just because they count against you. Thor in The Ultimates has shown power equal to that of the Godforce, he still got beat by Hulk. Shhhh.

"Third, you can't judge the power of those mental blasts Xavier uses, because there's no visual to gauge apon."

Yet it's continually ok for you to go on about Juggernaut's power level when it's never been displayed? Hypocricy isn't a trait you need right about now Vash.

"You can't see them in that picture.. that's why they had Cyclops blast him.. so there'd be something to look at."

No, Cyclops was there and blasted Juggernaut because they knew, coupled with the psionic blasts, it would take him down.

"Xavier couldn't kill Juggernaut if he tried, he used his full power on Juggernaut in their first encounter and managed to put him in a coma though."

What the hell? So Juggernaut is no longer immune to telepaths now? Jesus Christ this is getting out of hand. Xavier if given the chance, could turn him into a vegetable and you KNOW it. If you don't then step out of the debate now.

"Deadpool does fear Juggernaut actually.. let's see a qoute infact to illustrate that here we go..

Hey,son of a gun--I'm still alive! YOWZA! Now did anyone get the number of that wrecking ball? Did he say 'Jughead-Naut'? Is that someone who searches for Archies? I mean,'cause if it's who I THINK it is,I quit,game's over,Mom's callin' me,I'm late for dinner."

I own this comic and it's quite clearly Deadpool making fun of him. Deadpool has fought The Hulk and Juggernaut and he concedes that The Hulk is in a totally different league to Juggernaut. He fears Hulk to the pit of his soul. He never walks into fights with Juggernaut holding anywhere near as much fear.

"As for your idea of what invulnerable means. It's defined as being unable to be harmed or wounded. Which Juggernaut is as far as physical force is concerned."

Unable to be HARMED or WOUNDED? Well invulnerable doesn't cover a bit or the bits you want it to my friend. It covers all. Juggernaut is capable of being mentally harmed and wounded. He has been wounded and harmed physically also, cuts...bruises...gashes. He has had those. Oh and it wasn't MY idea of what invulnerable means, it was the dictionary's. I doubt you can debate the English language.

"As for seeing him say "Ah, you hurt me" or whatever, either he was being sarcastic.. or it was just poor writing from someone who didn't grasp the concept of just how invulnerable the character was. "

Why is it one of two? Why isn't the fact that he could have actually been saying it genuinely coming into things here? You just throw out what info doesn't please you and pile on ANYTHING that's pro-Juggernaut. Deplorable.

"One of Thor's writers actually called Juggernaut a mutant.. but we all know that's not true aswell, don't we? Writers make mistakes, just like you do."

So Thor's writers are unreliable? Cool cool, might wanna erase that fat list of Juggernaut feats you posted then as most of em came from Thor. Can I get a....I said can I get a hypocrite! Come awn bruthas and sisters, preach wit mehhh. Your biggest mistake was trying to debate with me.

"As for Onslaught, I didn't really want to get into that. Because that saga is full of so many plot holes it's not even funny."

A.K.A Juggernaut gets it handed to him? You consider that a plot hole Vash?

"writer of that particular book, had no idea what he was writing, he didn't do any back checking and just completley screwed up."

Whoa....deja vu. I just read once sentance in another paragraph......and now another that looks just like it. A deja vu is usually a glitch in The Ma....actually forget that. I'm willing to bet that you are gonna continually use writers as an excuse to palm of Juggernaut's shitty events. I only claim lame writing if it's actually lame written. Like him being 100foot tall. If Surfer lost to Thanos, I wouldn't say it's lame writing. He is just outmatched.

"Now.. I can maybe understand him being able to do that.. Onslaught was a being of pure psionic energy.. one of Juggernaut's 2 weaknesses."

Ladies and Gents, this just in. The unstoppable, unkillable, invulnerable and indestructable Juggernaut is infact not.....well....not all of those things. According to a slip up by one of his biggest fans, it appears he has weaknesses which contradict his own slogan. Coincidence? No, just a character being blow wide open by fanboys. Back to Alpha in the whooping circle. Alpha?

"You could read Juggernaut's bio and see he's indestructible. http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotl...q=10&fldAuto=96

even marvel.com lists him as invulnerable

How official does it have to be for you to get the picture?"

Yes I'm here at the whooping circle, continuing the erm...the erm...the whoop. Vash, you say how official do I want it because it says Juggernaut is invulnerable on his Marvel bio? Well it also says on Hulk's bios that he's the strongest man-like creature to ever walk the face of the Earth. Yeah, that same Earth Juggernaut walks on. They also refer to his unlimited strength which you all keep denying. So how official do you want it? Also, invulnerable has two clear definitions in the dictionary and only small parts of both apply to Juggernaut. He isn't invulnerable because he would have no weaknesses of vulnerabilities, which he has.

JuggernautFan replies next...

-AC

"but i think YOU should check what happens in EVERY OTHER APPEARANCE of juggernaut in the xmen when cyclops blasts him. his beam has NO effect on juggernaut. but professor x and jean did........ thats why he fell, not becaues of cyclops."

Do you drive? Coz if you ability to stay on roads is anything like your ability to stay on topic I feel afraid for pedestrians. I was only using an example in Cyclops but you are seemingly going off into a whole different area. Professor X and Jean are the ones who suggested that Cyclops power blasts were needed to down him, but hey lets just go hog wild and say "Forget what the comic says. Let's look at it how we want." shall we?.....

"you are dumb"

Oooooh insults, big of you. I knew that it would only be a certain amount of time before you lost that fake cool front you put up and just cracked under the pressure. Let's try to keep it above a nursery school mentality here JuggernautFan. No need for insults champ.

"if you are talking about hulk 403, where vision "tries" to stick his hand in juggernauts head to disorent him....... vision was far from battering juggernaut around.... again, these are false claims made by you. and again your arguements are getting stupid-er. because it did not happen the way you said it did."

I must admit J.F, interesting debate technique. Ask me what comic I'm referring to then make an assumption as to which it is. Hmm, by interesting I mean silly. I was a bit hasty when I said battered but he took the fight to him and proved that your boy is anything but what you say he is.

"no, the telepathic assault is what did him in. cyclops has stated several times that his optic blast wasnt even registering against juggernaut..."(again) stop being such an idiot."

One on one Cyclops blasts wouldn't affect him, most likely. I agree. However, tell me where I said Cyclops downed him alone? Never. I said he downed him, which he did. At the request and aid of Jean and Xavier.

"again) stop being such an idiot."

Dude chill with the insults, relax. Calm down, you've got your copy of 'Big mediocre villains workout' monthly. Just be cool. You've got no reason to come at me with insults. I mean it's not as if you see that everything you've said is futile and you are running out of things to say so you resort to insults......is it?

"you might wanna come up with some better arguements because you are getting a little carried away with the things that NEVER HAPPENED....."

JF, calm down. Stop tryin ta buss a caps lock in mah grill. Drink some tea or something, alllll the tea. It's just a debate man, nothing to worry about.....is there?

"again...... check all cyclops/juggernaut battles. not just that one. whenever he uses his optic blast on juggernaut by itself, it has no effect. it doesnt move him, and it causes no pain."

Which has been agreed by me. You are like a broken record player. Just say the same thing over and over and over and over. I said Cyclops has downed him because he has. Aided? Yes, but downed him nonetheless.

"give us a pic with juggernaut in pain...... i'd really like to see it (from hulks punchs)"

I already have. Make the effort to look.

"but his blast does not affect him..... you need to check all thier appearances instead of just one. it just so happens that 2 telepaths were present. odd isnt it??...."

We've been over this part so I shall move on...

"what issue???"

If memory serves me correct it was in Future: Imperfect when he fights The Maestro. I haven't read it in a while but I checked with Vic (probably knows the most about Hulk on this forum) and he reminded me.

"but still, cannonball at the time was supposed to be "unstoppable" as well. but guess who prevailed???"

We've since reached the blatant conclusion that if push came to shove, Juggernaut isn't actually unstoppable. So......

"i agree, but juggernaut with -atleast half his power drained did fight colossus and rogue at the same time, and was winning."

Twas a good fight but Rogue was more of a bother to them both than help. Colossus took it to Juggernaut and did extremely well for how unprepared he was to face Juggernaut. I don't expect Colossus to come out on top but he held his own.

"well, the armor isnt what makes him invulnerable...... well i guess it should help some. but taking shots from thor, and taking the godforce are 2 totally different things....... the godforce was one of the single most deadly blasts in the universe..."

Well the godforce is near enough equal to Ultimate Thor at his most powerful, which is when he used the godforce attack on Hulk, three times. The whole thunder and lightning show thing, yeah that.

"i doubt hulk can surpass it. just because you say he can??? but again, it has to do with juggernauts durability, so you say it's "bad writing"."

I also acknowledge that the feat was incredible. That's debate suicide. ignoring a blatant compliment to the "opposition" in favour of highlighting what I said. If it's bad writing or dubious writing I'll say so. I'd say it for Hulk, Surfer or anyone. This time it happened to be Juggernaut. I've not referred to the mountain thing coz you all cry about that so before you try to accuse me of writing off anything I suggest you look at your own points.

"radiation is the source of hulks power. thats not going to kill him. its going to make him stronger...... apples and oranges. (refer to maestro)"

I swear like, emotional distress is the source of Hulk's power. Maybe it's just me.

"i think deadpool was just caught up in the moment. if it had been juggernaut he probably woulda just ran...... or you could also call it bad writing (sound farmiliar???)"

I don't think he was, given that he had fought Hulk before and was about to again. He had also fought Juggernaut. Dude, let the bad writing thing go. I'm not the one robbing the person the opposition of justified amazing feats just because I know they outclass my character. You went so far as to call Secret Wars bad writing. A little over confident if you ask me.

"i doubt hes anywhere near as resistant as juggernaut..."

That may be likely given that, again, Hulk walks around half naked. Juggernaut wears a suit of magical armour.

"i doubt iron man could muster a blast more powerful than thors godforce or other things that juggernaut has -harmlessly- taken."

True, Iron-Man couldn't muster a force like Chamber's Godfor....oh wait. We were talking about Chamber in comparison with Iron-Man. Coz we just did the Thor part. Oh well, way to dodge another valid point JF.

"this is where you are contradicting yourself. if anything, cyclopse has -never- had an effect on juggernaut. i wish you would realize that. please point us in the right direction allmight comic book god..... which issue has cyclopse ever hurt juggernaut by himself????"

Cyclops has had an effect on Juggernaut. Has he done it alone? Not to my knowledge. Did I say he has? Once again no. No contradictions involved. Juggernaut, factually, has become stronger as time goes on through different writers or story arcs (in general, I'm not saying poor writing). Hulk never has. When Juggernaut first appeared he was just a really strong guy claiming to be unstoppable like they all do.

"juggernaut has felt pain only under extreme circumstances. again mighty comic book god, point us in the right direction. lead us to the light. colossus got knocked out with a single punch (twice) i doubt he has ever effectively mounted an attack against juggernaut. even thor has never harmed juggernaut until he negated the mystical energy that makes cain marko - juggernaut. hulk too has never proven able to harm him physically or over power him (until he was upgraded). cyclopse, how many times can you refer to him when he does nothing????? vision again......when did he beat up juggernaut???"

Alrighty. Colossus mounted successful attacks in that they have had an effect in whatever way that is, when he and Rogue (if you can call her a factor) fought him. You keep denying that Hulk has hurt him, so me providing you with the picture of Hulk smacking him and him grimacing is clearly of no use. I refer to Cyclops for that one time coz it counts for what I was saying. That being , his beams have had an effect. The Vision reference is the one you mentioned. You claim he was far from battering him, I agree. I openly admit I was a little hasty. But to say Vision never had him on the ropes is a stretch.

"which juggernaut has pretty much proven since he was created until rescently when his powers began to decrease.... thanks for looking it up though."

No problem champ. He hasn't proven anything. He isn't invulnerable because......................he has vulnerabilities.

"we are trying to get a few simple facts through your head. but you just refute them, so we have to keep repeating ourselves. juggernaut is immune to physical pain. not psionics."

Then say he is "immune to physical pain" instead of claiming he is completely invulnerable. Simple task, really it is. This Onslaught fight that you choose to believe didn't happen because we didn't see it (which is a perfectly fine standpoint), left Juggernaut in a crater. Now. He would just be disorientated with not a mark on him if he was immune to physical pain. Yet his body was racked and you could tell by the look on his face as he lay there staring at Beast, that he was infact, in pain. You don't come out of a pure, quick, psionic battle with battered body unless you've been battered up.

"i dunno, hows it feel????"

Dunno man, dunno. Never experienced it.

I do love your attempts to turn my quirky little endings around. Sadly, only I have the charisma to pull those off.

Feel free to continue this debate Juggernaut Fans, which consist of JuggernautFan and....Vash. Next time, try to be a little more mature and leave out the name calling.

Been fun.

-AC

'but still, cannonball at the time was supposed to be "unstoppable" as well. but guess who prevailed???'

You mean hyperbolic adjectives can be just figures of speech? I take it that applies to everyone but Juggernaut.

'As for seeing him say "Ah, you hurt me" or whatever, either he was being sarcastic.. or it was just poor writing from someone who didn't grasp the concept of just how invulnerable the character was. One of Thor's writers actually called Juggernaut a mutant.. but we all know that's not true aswell, don't we? Writers make mistakes, just like you do.'

What BS. Juggernaut gets hurt: it's bad writing, or sarcasm. These writers- they work for Marvel. The company that made Jug. They have given these people creative control to write about a character for you to debate. Whose opinion means more?

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
As for seeing him say "Ah, you hurt me" or whatever, either he was being sarcastic.. or it was just poor writing from someone who didn't grasp the concept of just how invulnerable the character was. One of Thor's writers actually called Juggernaut a mutant.. but we all know that's not true aswell, don't we? Writers make mistakes, just like you do.'

What BS. Juggernaut gets hurt: it's bad writing, or sarcasm. These writers- they work for Marvel. The company that made Jug. They have given these people creative control to write about a character for you to debate. Whose opinion means more?

I said it before somewhere on this forum => if I had to make a list of all the errors I noticed in comics, it would be a very long list. But I have better things to do, like reading a good, flawless comic 😄 .