Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Originally posted by who?-kid
Come on, [b]everybody who has read a few comics, and who's familiar with the characters, knows there are some "writers" around there who just suck. One mistake after the other. Sometimes I think : do they actually know the heroes or villains they are writing about ?

I said it before somewhere on this forum => if I had to make a list of all the errors I noticed in comics, it would be a very long list. But I have better things to do, like reading a good, flawless comic 😄 . [/B]

It's not the point at hand though. Who are we to say they are wrong? When it comes to it, if we are going to use ANY point from ANY comic, then everything that happens in continuity is up for grabs. Otherwise this whole idea of debating comic books, which is shaky enough as it is, becomes completely redundant.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
It's not the point at hand though. Who are we to say they are wrong?

I'm not one of those people who start shouting "bad writing, bad writing !" whenever his or her favorite hero gets beaten up. That's pathetic. But the fact remains, sometimes BIG errors are made. That's all I wanted to say.

In the grand scheme of things, those errors should be deservedly overlooked unless they completely **** up a story.

It IS redundant to try and lay claim to what is a correct continuity or not. It seems that the people debating for Juggernaut, Vash especially, just wants to write off anything good that Hulk does or anything bad Juggernaut does, which is pathetic.

The fact that they try to say Juggernaut saying "Ah I'm hurt" is sarcasm or bad writing, as Vic said, is complete and utter BS. It's an absolutely ridiculous notion to assume that through the years he has been in existance, that Juggernaut has never been hurt. He'd be legendary if this were the case. To many people he's just a very powerful big guy.

It was a good point raised that when JF referred to Cannonball as unstoppable he put quote marks around as if Juggernaut is the only one who can seriously claim that title. which he cannot. Off the back of this one thread people have been slyly weaned into thinking Juggernaut is some awesome killing machine. He's anything but.

-AC

Originally posted by who?-kid
We are the readers, thanks to us these so-called writers earn a living. The least they could do, is hear us out and respect the characters they are using in their stories. That is the least !

Be that as it may- what they say goes. 'Good' or 'bad', they are creating the stories that we are debating.

It reminds me of Jodie Foster refusing to play Clarice in Hannibal because 'she does things she wouldn't do'.

Hmm, you aren't Clarice, Jodie. She will do what Thomas Harris tells her to do. Furthermore, whatever he tells her to do, is what she would do, because he is the creator.

Nobody weill get what you just said Vic. Either that or they'll couple their lack of ability to understand it with the fact that "we're not talking about novels we're talking about comics."

It is true, while there's things we do and don't like in comics, they happen and there's nothing we can do to change it. They were intended to happen by the writers and creators so if they see fit to do that with their own characters and are completely happy with them, then it's pretty much a done deal.

-AC

Hey, we're not talking about novels we're talking about comics !

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Nobody weill get what you just said Vic.

It is true, while there's things we do and don't like in comics, they happen and there's nothing we can do to change it. They were intended to happen by the writers and creators so if they see fit to do that with their own characters and are completely happy with them, then it's pretty much a done deal.

Are you still going to say "Ah whatever, what's done is done, no use complaining, let it be, live and let die, que sera sera" ? I think the minute after you read the comic, you will start a new thread, called something like "What was the writer thinking ? 😠"

😆

"Ok, but still, I would like to see your face and read your mind when some writer decides that's its time for Stiltman to totally thrash and humiliate Deadpool"

Well as I did just say, like it or not, it's their decision. Whether or not I think it's right for the character, it's their choice. They let Surfer get beat up by Earth men in early issues. I didn't like it but these things happen.

You once asked me not to make assumptions about you so don't do so about me. The difference between us is I understand the Author/Reader relationship better it seems. Which is why you don't seem to grasp why it wouldn't bother me.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You once asked me not to make assumptions about you so don't do so about me.

The difference between us is I understand the Author/Reader relationship better it seems.

But back to topic (where is Juggernautfan when you need him ?). Hulk is potentially stronger and Juggernaut is more durable. There. I said it, and I leave the rest of the debate to the experts, Alpha Centauri and Juggernautfan.

I can't do it anymore man. I really can't. I respect JuggernautFan for holding a long and heated thread even if I think some of his points are BS. I respect the dude for holding it here.

I'm just not really in a mood to debate right now. Personal stuff. So if anyone replies, I'll take a while. I'll bump it later or something.

-AC

Just one thing to comment on for now.

This. When I said "Xavier couldn't kill Juggernaut if he tried, he used his full power on Juggernaut in their first encounter and managed to put him in a coma though."

You replied with

"What the hell? So Juggernaut is no longer immune to telepaths now? Jesus Christ this is getting out of hand. Xavier if given the chance, could turn him into a vegetable and you KNOW it. If you don't then step out of the debate now."

Where is your brain at today? Juggernaut's helmet had been REMOVED. It was a 2 issue fight, at the end of the second issue the X-Men had managed to REMOVE Juggernaut's psi blocking helmet. And Xavier nailed him with a very strong mental attack, which.. incase you didn't know.. and weren't paying attention.. put him in a coma. Yes, I know he could turn Juggernaut into a vegetable.. and he DID.. and he remained that way for several months afterwards.. You were way off your game when you started posting that.

And for the last time.. no one said Juggernaut was completely immune to ALL forms of attacks. We all know he's affected by psionics and strong magics. But for the love of god.. get it through your skull.. he's physically invulnerable. That means.. to phsyical attacks.. hits from solid, real, physical, substancial (however you spell it) attacks. Hulk's fists are physical things.. psionics are mental attacks.. psionics.. mental telepathy and powerful magics can affect him. But drop the biggest boulder on him, throw the most powerful punch, slash with the sharpest blade, the biggest missle, the hottest flame, the coldest ice, the most corrosive acid, the highest voltage and anything else physical and it can't hurt him.

If you have so much trouble grasping the "physicaly invulnerable" issue, then there's no need to continue talking to you in this topic. Because you just.. don't.. get it. Your skull must be made of adamantium because nothing is getting through to your brain.

hmmmm, like i said, X-men 110 he got hurt....not bad writing, this was UNCANNY X-MEN #110!!!! one of the classic Jugs and X-men fights, when Jugs first fought the "New X-men" in fact at the top of the cover it is titled NEW X-Men instead of Uncanny X-men...it is a classic old school Juggernaut appearance and is totally valid as any other old x-men comic featuring Jugs...Colossus also knocks him on his ass in the next issue, illustrating just how unstoppable he is...aditionally, Nimrod stopped him with an electro-chemical attack on the synopsi in his brain, not a mental or psionic attack but manipulation of electricity to affect his brain chemistry....another x-men issue that was pretty legit.

"Where is your brain at today? Juggernaut's helmet had been REMOVED. It was a 2 issue fight, at the end of the second issue the X-Men had managed to REMOVE Juggernaut's psi blocking helmet. And Xavier nailed him with a very strong mental attack, which.. incase you didn't know.. and weren't paying attention.. put him in a coma. Yes, I know he could turn Juggernaut into a vegetable.. and he DID.. and he remained that way for several months afterwards.. You were way off your game when you started posting that."

I said he'd kill him coz he'd be brain dead. I wasn't off my game anywhere. Do yourself a favour and leave the debating to JuggernautFan, he's better at it. The way you put your point across was hasty and unclear. If you took time to not feel threatened by my knowledge then maybe you'd be calmer.

"And for the last time.. no one said Juggernaut was completely immune to ALL forms of attacks. We all know he's affected by psionics and strong magics. But for the love of god.. get it through your skull.. he's physically invulnerable."

The thing is, YOU were the one who claimed he was completely invulnerable. You never mentioned physical, you just said invulnerable. As smart as I am, I'm no mind reader son. Try typing what you mean.

"If you have so much trouble grasping the "physicaly invulnerable" issue, then there's no need to continue talking to you in this topic. Because you just.. don't.. get it. Your skull must be made of adamantium because nothing is getting through to your brain."

Is this how you deal with people you can't handle? Insult them? Check yourself and realise that I've backed this thread since it's early days. I've been one of the major players in this debate. So before you bring your noobie self in here telling me what I don't get, I suggest you start taking a look back at your posts and see how completely contradictory they are. JuggernautFan never had this much problem. We can go back and forth all day, but it's you. Silly child.

Anyway JF, you and I (and others) have all gone back and forth over 40 pages and it's clear that no matter what evidence we present, none of us will waiver. So in good spirits, I'll agree to disagree. Coz I think the thread has had its days. It was tremendous fun in all honesty, I've put across all the views I have to give in this thread so au revoir.

-AC

Hulk....he stopped Juggernaut in TIH #457

why dont you try reading some other post before you respond with such
confidence. *sighs*noobs. ❌

Originally posted by Wynndar
hmmmm, like i said, X-men 110 he got hurt....not bad writing, this was UNCANNY X-MEN #110!!!! one of the classic Jugs and X-men fights, when Jugs first fought the "New X-men" in fact at the top of the cover it is titled NEW X-Men instead of Uncanny X-men...it is a classic old school Juggernaut appearance and is totally valid as any other old x-men comic featuring Jugs...Colossus also knocks him on his ass in the next issue, illustrating just how unstoppable he is...aditionally, Nimrod stopped him with an electro-chemical attack on the synopsi in his brain, not a mental or psionic attack but manipulation of electricity to affect his brain chemistry....another x-men issue that was pretty legit.

I'm well aware of what Nimrod did.. and it wasn't an "electro chemical" attack. It was tight beam ultra high frequency sound waves he blasted into Juggernaut's head to scramble his brain. No electricity involved, because as we all know.. Juggernaut is impervious to high voltage attacks. So Nimrod used sound to try and fry Juggernaut's brain there. Kinda worked, but after the attack was over Juggernaut was back on his feet like it never happened, his uber regeneration and all musta fixed it up right after.

I guess I forgot to meantion Juggernaut is also effected by sensory attacks. He can see and hear.. so obviously.. bright lights and loud sounds can hurt his eyes or ears. However, as soon as the attack has ended the pain felt instantly vanishes since no actual damage was sustained to his sensory organs. For instance, Banshee has screamed directly into his hear and you can bet he felt that, but not as much as normal people would, and as soon as the scream ended so did any pain he felt.

And Alpha.. yes, I have stated many a time that his invulnerability was physical. Afterwards I commented on his "complete invulnerability" but it was in comparison to the "nigh invulnerablity" possessed by Rogue. If I led you to believe I meant his invulnerability was absolute even in regards to psionics etc then I'm sorry. I was only referring to his physical level of invulnerability. I should of said he possesses "complete physical invulnerability" which is more accurate. Again sorry.

But the point still stands, Hulk's punches.. being purely physical in nature cannot harm someone who posseses an immunity to physical harm. However.. as for your comments about Juggernaut's expression when being hit. It couldn't of been phyiscal pain to cause his expression to change, but perhaps anger.. frustration.. and since Juggernaut was once a normal human.. he may of done it out of reflex because his brain might of been telling him "Man.. he hit me realy hard, that would hurt" even though it didn't. As Juggernaut himself comments that Hulk wasn't able to hurt him after he'd been thrown, and just before the X-Men arrive out of thin air.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
'but still, cannonball at the time was supposed to be "unstoppable" as well. but guess who prevailed???'

You mean hyperbolic adjectives can be just figures of speech? I take it that applies to everyone but Juggernaut.

well, juggernauts unstoppability isnt based on how fast he is going, or how strong his leg muscles are..... but most everybody else that is supposed to be unstoppable does rely on those things.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom

What BS. Juggernaut gets hurt: it's bad writing, or sarcasm. These writers- they work for Marvel. The company that made Jug. They have given these people creative control to write about a character for you to debate. Whose opinion means more?

he is refering to certain mistakes..... they said juggernaut was a mutant. writer blunder obviously. also, if you are a fan of juggernaut, onslaught was a writer blunder..... beast taking off juggernauts helmet and juggernaut losing his power is obviously another writer blunder. they happen occasionally.

as for everything else, this thread is getting too big, and the posts too long for me to reply to. otherwise it would have been fun to debate. i didnt even bother to read the 3,000 word essay that some of the postees put forth on here. it would have taken up to much of my time.

Quick! The 3rd page of X-Men Unlimited #4! Apparently the full force of Cytorrak's enchantments have previously halted, and even reversed, Cain's impending baldness and disturbing dental problems! Now that his powers are waning...

And speaking of Cyclops, compare Cyc's height vs Cain on pg 4 and on the next to last page of the story. Does Cyclops wear lifts? Perhaps he used his lifts to gain leverage against the 'naut to knock him out. And what's up with that Heart Handshake. Maybe Hulk #172 was the culmination of a lover's quarrel and Cain faked it so that he and Scott could put the whole sordid thing behind them...

Shouldn't these threads have some element of fun? I did stop by a comic book shop this past weekend but they didn't have the back issue of TIH that I was looking for. I will continue looking or have someone go through my books at my parent's house.

JJJJJUuuuG