Juggernaut or The Hulk?

"And Alpha.. yes, I have stated many a time that his invulnerability was physical. Afterwards I commented on his "complete invulnerability" but it was in comparison to the "nigh invulnerablity" possessed by Rogue. If I led you to believe I meant his invulnerability was absolute even in regards to psionics etc then I'm sorry. I was only referring to his physical level of invulnerability. I should of said he possesses "complete physical invulnerability" which is more accurate. Again sorry."

Apology accepted. That's all it takes, easy isn't it? It really doesn't have to lead to insults, just being clear.

"I guess I forgot to meantion Juggernaut is also effected by sensory attacks. He can see and hear.. so obviously.. bright lights and loud sounds can hurt his eyes or ears"

Someone should walk up to him with a Maglight and loads of batteries. He's gone from being totally unstoppable to being weak at the hands of lights and sounds.

"But the point still stands, Hulk's punches.. being purely physical in nature cannot harm someone who posseses an immunity to physical harm. However.. as for your comments about Juggernaut's expression when being hit. It couldn't of been phyiscal pain to cause his expression to change, but perhaps anger.. frustration.. and since Juggernaut was once a normal human.. he may of done it out of reflex because his brain might of been telling him "Man.. he hit me realy hard, that would hurt" even though it didn't."

Or again, maybe it did actually just hurt him. It is a possibility that you continually ignore.

Anyway, I have enjoyed this thread and I believe those "3,000 word essays" are what make threads and forums interesting so it's no use complaining about them. Au revoir.

-AC

We've already established that when Juggernaut's powers aren't drained or weakened by an outside force, a purely physical blow can't actually deal him any damage. Since his powers are mystical in nature, magical, it's not so hard to believe that he could actually be invulnerable. Magic defies the laws of nature and allows him to be very much indestructible from a physical standpoint.

You can keep on saying "Au revoir" but I'm pretty sure you'll keep coming back anyway.

"We've already established that when Juggernaut's powers aren't drained or weakened by an outside force, a purely physical blow can't actually deal him any damage"

I don't agree. That would mean he's one of the only people along with cosmic entities who has never, in over 40 years, felt physical pain. Which is extremely unlikely. Nobody knows what happened with Onslaught and given that he landed with a busted up mouth, arms and chestplate, I'm willing to bet he felt pain.

I'll keep coming back if there are new things being said and will only reply to things I find interesting.

-AC

Yeah, it would appear he felt pain. However it being a well known fact that Onslaught was a being of pure psionic energy, one of Juggernaut's known weaknesses, it could be said that it was psionic energy that injured him.. not a physical force. It could also be concluded that Onslaught was able to somehow bypass Juggernaut's invulnerability somehow. As Onslaught himself noted that it would be impossible to kill Juggernaut as he is completely indestructible as long as he is connected to his magics.. 10 seconds later he contradicts himself by ripping the gem (that wasn't there) out of Juggernaut's chest. By Onslaught's own admittance that's something he shouldn't of been able to do as long as Juggernaut had his powers. So we can only assume that Onslaught was able to weaken the bonds that hold Juggernaut's mystical powers to him in order to injure him.

So Onslaught must of used his psionic powers to alter reality and make Juggernaut temporarily vulnerable to his attacks. Onslaught would have also had to alter reality in order to shrink Juggernaut down and shove him into the gem.. perhaps he manipulated reality and caused the gem to appear in his chest to begin with.

In any event, it wasn't a purely physical force that Onslaught used to defeat Juggernaut, and therefore it doesn't disprove Juggernaut as being physically invulnerable.

And if you're going to keep coming back anytime something new or interesting is said.. might aswell stop saying you're leaving the discussion.

"In any event, it wasn't a purely physical force that Onslaught used to defeat Juggernaut, and therefore it doesn't disprove Juggernaut as being physically invulnerable.

And if you're going to keep coming back anytime something new or interesting is said.. might aswell stop saying you're leaving the discussion"

A) He had a physical form (Onslaught). So he was capable of punching and physical attacks.

B) I said it coz I was. But there are a few things you say that I disagree with and feel the need to post about. That and I can type as I wish.

-AC

Okay, this fight's already happened on 4 separate occasions, in The Incredible Hulk #172, Avengers:West Coast #64, The Incredible Hulk#402, and The Incredible Hulk #457

Now, in the first match, two of the earth's strongest went toe-to-toe. The Hulk is not only incredibly strong,he's amazingly durable and gets even stronger as he gets angrier. But in The Juggernaut he faces an opponent who may not only be a match for his increasing strength but who that no matter how strong Hulk gets he cannot hurt. This match pretty much started off with the Hulk and Juggernaut matching each other blow for blow. Now as the fight progressed, the Hulk started to wear down and tire out, The Juggernaut was still fresh and as strong as when he started. He tells the Hulk that only because he considers the Hulk nearly his equal, that he'll be quick about killing him. Then he grabs Hulk and attempts to break his neck. Of course, the pain and anger Hulk feels form this brings his strength up, and he then reaches back and grabs Juggernaut by the helmet and spins it around. Hulk says he's gonna throw Juggernaut back to the Hulkbuster base they both escaped from. But the force ends up separating Juggernaut from his helmet and sends him into the side of a mountain. Hulk, looking kinda confused with Juggernaut's helmet in his hand, figures that's the end of that and then tosses the helmet aside and walks off. What the Hulk didn't realize, was that Juggernaut was read yto attack him from behind. Lucky for the Hulk, Professor Xavier, Jean Grey, and Cyclops just happened to be driving by. And, with his helmet off, the Professor and Jean hit Juggernaut with a double psi-blast, and that was the end of that.

Now, I don't know much about the second fight, except that Hulk had the help of a boy who happened to find the gem of Cyttorak and used it against Juggarnaut.

Now, the third match, shows just how bad-ass Juggarnaut can be. Juggernaut went after Hulk in the Amazon wearing plain streetclothes so Hulk wouldn't recognize him. In most of this fight, Juggernaut's handing Hulk's ass to him, even shoving his head in a river, all the while Hulk's wondering why this guy seems so familiar. It was too late for him to figure out though, as in the end Juggernaut put Hulk in a headlock and proceeded to bash his face in. He would've killed him too, if the the Red Skull didn't tell him to stop. Now, the Hulk may have at a disadvantage because he didn't realize that he was fightign someone with Juggernaut's strength until it was to late, not that it matters in my opinion.

Now, round 4, which is probably one of the most debated match-ups. This time he fought a Celestially powered Hulk (who had been turned into Apocalyse's new horseman War). Against this kind of power, Juggernaut was totally outmatched. Although he was never physical hurt by anything thrown at him, he stood no chance against Hulk powered by Celestial energy, which power is unknown in nature. This power even allowed War (which is a more proper name for Hulk why under this influence) to stop the Juggernaut cold, a feat thought impossible. Then, at the end of the fight, the Hulk rips off his Celestial armor (or implants, I can't recall which), and leaps off.

Now, with all that said, I can get started. Although they have had good matches, the Hulk cannot take on Juggernaut with his own strength alone. Juggernaut's abilities are super strength, which is said to rival Hulk's, Although he's of course stronger than Hulk when he transforms. The true limits of his strength are still unknown. The power given to him by Cyttorak makes him immortal, meaning he can live on forever, and keep looking young. He needs neither food, water, sleep, or air. The power of Cyttorak keeps him sustained. He is also physically (YES, physically) invunerable. As in, he can be doused in molten steel and not feel a thing, he can be hit by a fuel truck and walk out out of the flames without a scratch, he can even take a full fury of Thor's godforce blast (an attack that's made Galactus run for cover and the Celestial worry), and only be pushed back a few yards. He's also had his power cut in half, which made him no longer invunerable at that time, and even worse, his flesh magically removed by D'Spayre in Juggernaut One Shot. Yet, the Juggernaut, stood there, stripped to the bone, with nothing but his helmet, with D'Spayre finally realizing what Juggernaut had been telling him the whole damn time, that he could not be stopped. Which brings me to his main power, to be unstoppable. This is not something he just says to talk trash, this is another one of the abilities given to him like Cyttorak. Once the Juggernaut Starts moving in certain direction, no known force on earth, and most of the universe can stop him, only slow him down. He even proved this to Jean Grey, when she used her power to hold him up in the air. yet, he still kept coming after her. And, he also has his own personal force field which he can put up any time he wishes.

His only known weaknesses are psychics and magic. His hemlet protects him from any psychic attack, and that's really it's only purpose. In a fight with someone like the Hulk, he doesn't need either his helmet or armor, as was proven in The Incredible Hulk#402. His armor is made of an indestructible fabric, which really only keeps him from being naked when he does some of the crazy sh*t he does.

Now, in conclussion, as powerful as the Hulk is, he is no physical match for the Juggernaut. Of course the Hulk can get madder and stronger, but it does little good against someone who you can't hurt, and never tires out. Now on the other hand, if this is Suck Austen's Jobbernaut (Chuck Austen for those that don't know) then it goes in favor of the Hulk. And for the record, Chuck Austen is a horrible writer, destroying characters and disregarding their abilities all over Marvel and DC. Has anyone seen what he's done to Superman?

Guyz lets' remember .....comics aren't real!
I love when people say the writers made a mistake or they suck or whatever. It's not like they are basing things on fact now are they. It's not like their witing about Ronald Reagan or something (someone who actually lived) IT's Make believe guyz!!!! Just accept the writers vision or version of a story or character. It's not that hard. Now if you wanna argue about something real, let's talk Smurfs i saw one of those little blue Bast**ds just last night .....right after that fifth of gin i polished off and i tell you ....it was real!

"But in The Juggernaut he faces an opponent who may not only be a match for his increasing strength"

Juggernaut is not stronger than The Hulk. Overall.

"but who that no matter how strong Hulk gets he cannot hurt."

Debatable.

"Now, the third match, shows just how bad-ass Juggarnaut can be. Juggernaut went after Hulk in the Amazon wearing plain streetclothes so Hulk wouldn't recognize him. In most of this fight, Juggernaut's handing Hulk's ass to him, even shoving his head in a river, all the while Hulk's wondering why this guy seems so familiar. It was too late for him to figure out though, as in the end Juggernaut put Hulk in a headlock and proceeded to bash his face in. He would've killed him too, if the the Red Skull didn't tell him to stop. Now, the Hulk may have at a disadvantage because he didn't realize that he was fightign someone with Juggernaut's strength until it was to late, not that it matters in my opinion."

If Juggernaut thought he was so much better than The Hulk, or if the writers thought he was, they wouldn't have gave him the sly way of fighting. Compare scenarios.

Scenario 1: Juggernaut walks to Hulk in plain street clothes as seen in the comic and starts hitting him. Hulk doesn't fight back for a reason.

Scenario 2: Juggernaut in normal clothing walks to Hulk. A fight instantly begins as Hulk starts to fight back right away.

BIIIIIIIIG difference. Why do you say not that it matters? Of course it matters. It's like saying Daredevil walks up to someone out of clothing and slaps them up. They person wouldn't fight back coz it's just a blind man. If they knew it was Daredevil and knew of his powers I doubt they'd stand there getting beat. Don't dismiss things.

"Against this kind of power, Juggernaut was totally outmatched. Although he was never physical hurt by anything thrown at him"

Prove to me right here that Juggernaut was never physically hurt. Did he not shout "IMPOSSIBLE!"? Impossible to what? Getting thrown up in the air? Coz I swear Gladiator did that also. So he must have been saying "IMPOSSIBLE!" to something else. Possibly that he got hurt.....possibly....maybe....probably.

"Now, with all that said, I can get started. Although they have had good matches, the Hulk cannot take on Juggernaut with his own strength alone. Juggernaut's abilities are super strength, which is said to rival Hulk's, Although he's of course stronger than Hulk when he transforms."

I swear he's fought him on his own with his own strength and been fine with it. Taking back to their first fight, if Juggernaut attacked him from behind, it wouldn't have ended the fight. Hulk would have been even more angry that Juggernaut did that and the fight would continue. Lastly, Hulk's strength is unlimited. Unless Juggernaut has unlimited physical strength, he cannot match or best Hulk.

"The power given to him by Cyttorak makes him immortal, meaning he can live on forever"

He wasn't so "Immortal" in The End. Guess who else wasn't? The whole universe.

"As in, he can be doused in molten steel and not feel a thing, he can be hit by a fuel truck and walk out out of the flames without a scratch, he can even take a full fury of Thor's godforce blast (an attack that's made Galactus run for cover and the Celestial worry), and only be pushed back a few yards"

You seem to forget that, as I have continually pointed out, Juggernaut wears magically super-enhanced armour. Hulk wears levis and still takes things just as bad as Juggernaut and comes back, meaning that he isn't SHIELDED. He actually has to take them and heal from them, which he does.

"Yet, the Juggernaut, stood there, stripped to the bone, with nothing but his helmet.."

Which was strangely triangular....which his head isn't.

"Which brings me to his main power, to be unstoppable. This is not something he just says to talk trash, this is another one of the abilities given to him like Cyttorak. Once the Juggernaut Starts moving in certain direction, no known force on earth, and most of the universe can stop him, only slow him down. He even proved this to Jean Grey, when she used her power to hold him up in the air. yet, he still kept coming after her."

He isn't unstoppable at all. He has been stopped. You cannot be mentally unstoppable and physically unstoppable. Just unstoppable. He is neither as proven by War Hulk when he sorta tried to RUN away and War Hulk grabbed him and hurled him skyward. Enhanced or not, it proves he's not unstoppable. Besides, those words written by Cyttorak were uttered eons before. Back when Hulk didn't exist, maybe then the power was unstoppable. In the 20th century however, I'll think you'll find he's quite stoppable.

"And, he also has his own personal force field which he can put up any time he wishes."

Doesn't that seem a bit....I dunno.......chicken? For someone who's so unstoppable of course. Also a guy who cannot be hurt. Why does he need a forcefield? Why do the writers believe he needs a forcefield? Wait.....could it.....nahhhhh. Wait.......Could it be......for.....PROTECTION!?

"His only known weaknesses are psychics and magic. His hemlet protects him from any psychic attack, and that's really it's only purpose. In a fight with someone like the Hulk, he doesn't need either his helmet or armor, as was proven in The Incredible Hulk#402. His armor is made of an indestructible fabric, which really only keeps him from being naked when he does some of the crazy sh*t he does."

Wait, indestructible armour? Doesn't this make all of his truck explosion, molten lava escapades a bit tainted? Considering he also has a forcefield. Hmm. Weird that. Lets see him take those with no armour. He can be affected with psionics without his helmet as proven by Psylocke.

"Now, in conclussion, as powerful as the Hulk is, he is no physical match for the Juggernaut. Of course the Hulk can get madder and stronger, but it does little good against someone who you can't hurt"

He is more than a physical match and yes you can hurt Juggernaut as Wynddar has continually proven. Nightcrawler did so.

-AC

well, against the eye thing. juggernauts eyes have proven vulnerable to attack, but the rest of his body has proven invulnerable.... i've also countered wyndar with this also. yes his eyes have been hurt twice historically, but his body....... NO.

as for onslaught being purely psionic energy. i doubt thats why he was able to cause juggernaut harm...... because he did wear armor to give him form. so just because he was psionic energy does not mean that is why he was able to harm juggernaut. it's that plain and simple

we just have to take a poorly written story, and accept what did happen. and then we make our own conclusions about how/why it happened.

and i wasnt complaining about the essays i was just to tired to read em all. this thing just keeps growing, and it wont stop. do you ever stop to wonder just how many pages it will be, before it finally dies?

I do, indeed I do. Perhaps it has become, a hulking thread, a debate juggernaut in which we have had many conflicting issues.

(Coz I incorporated the character names in the reply.)

-AC

'So Nimrod used sound to try and fry Juggernaut's brain there. Kinda worked, but after the attack was over Juggernaut was back on his feet like it never happened, his uber regeneration and all musta fixed it up right after.

I guess I forgot to meantion Juggernaut is also effected by sensory attacks. He can see and hear.. so obviously.. bright lights and loud sounds can hurt his eyes or ears. However, as soon as the attack has ended the pain felt instantly vanishes since no actual damage was sustained to his sensory organs. For instance, Banshee has screamed directly into his hear and you can bet he felt that, but not as much as normal people would, and as soon as the scream ended so did any pain he felt.

And Alpha.. yes, I have stated many a time that his invulnerability was physical. Afterwards I commented on his "complete invulnerability" but it was in comparison to the "nigh invulnerablity" possessed by Rogue. If I led you to believe I meant his invulnerability was absolute even in regards to psionics etc then I'm sorry. I was only referring to his physical level of invulnerability. I should of said he possesses "complete physical invulnerability" which is more accurate. Again sorry.'

This whole section is at odds with itself and contradictory.

'well, juggernauts unstoppability isnt based on how fast he is going, or how strong his leg muscles are..... but most everybody else that is supposed to be unstoppable does rely on those things.'

He was stopped by War Hulk, probably- or maybe it's just me- removes unstoppable from his description, You know? Getting stopped? And not being unstoppable? Anyone else see the poetry?

'also, if you are a fan of juggernaut, onslaught was a writer blunder.....'

Yes, don't we know.

'he can even take a full fury of Thor's godforce blast (an attack that's made Galactus run for cover and the Celestial worry), and only be pushed back a few yards. '

Shall we cry bad writing? Or not. No, actually Juggernaut is much more powerful than Galactus. It's fine.

'I love when people say the writers made a mistake or they suck or whatever. It's not like they are basing things on fact now are they. It's not like their witing about Ronald Reagan or something (someone who actually lived) IT's Make believe guyz!!!! '

To this I have but one thing to say. In episode 2F09, when Itchy plays Scratchy's skeleton like a xylophone, he strikes the same rib twice in succession, yet he produces two clearly different tones. I mean, what are we to believe, that this is some sort of a *ppsss* magic xylophone or something? Boy, I really hope somebody got fired for that blunder.

'well, against the eye thing. juggernauts eyes have proven vulnerable to attack, but the rest of his body has proven invulnerable...'

This is ridiculous. Look at what you just said. Seriously.

Victor, when you take quotes from multiple posters you kind of jumble it all up. It's hard to tell who're your replying to sometimes when you do that.

Nothing I said about his sensory vulnerability contradicts itself. He felt pain in his ears from loud sound.. when the sound was over.. no more pain, unlike a normal person who's ears would continue to ring and hurt for minutes after the sound had stopped. What's really not to get about that?

Now to Alpha

As for War Hulk stopping him. Sure, that happened. But with all the augmentation Apocalypse did on Hulk for that fight one can hardly say that Hulk really did it on his own. The combined cosmic energy of two universes is already well beyond Hulk's own power, if Hulk was up against the combined cosmic energy of two univereses.. he'd do a lot more than stop walking forward when it hit him. All it managed to do to Juggernaut with Hulk's own strength, the combined cosmic energy of two universes and a suit of celestial armor.. was stop his forward motion. That is what he shouted "IMPOSSIBLE!" about.

I can't recall a time in which Hulk has managed to put Juggernaut down with his strength alone. Never can I remember a fight which he won without assistance of some sort, whether it be the X-Men showing up and psychicaly taking down Juggernaut.. or a blast from the gem itself taking him down after they "supposedly" had an off panel battle, or a mental backlash from some psychic hitting him, or having his powers amplified to the Nth degree by cosmic energy and celestial armor. Never has he won a fight against Juggernaut on his own. Unless someone can correct me and show me a fight where Hulk beat Juggernaut senseless with his own two hands with no help what-so-ever then I'll have to stand by this statement "Hulk has never beaten Juggernaut by himself."

"Juggernaut is not stronger than The Hulk. Overall"

Give me an example where Hulk proves Stronger than Juggernaut then I might consider this. Hulk has shown incredible strength and feats during his time, but so has Juggernaut.

""but who that no matter how strong Hulk gets he cannot hurt.""
"Debatable."

Now, while there are others that may accomplish hurting Juggernaut, but like I said, at normal strength, the Juggernaut cannot be physically hurt, and especially not by anything Hulk throws at him. He can punch him all day and it won't hurt a bit, and it never has. Now if you can tell me how the Hulk can hurt Juggernaut I'd like to know.

"If Juggernaut thought he was so much better than The Hulk, or if the writers thought he was, they wouldn't have gave him the sly way of fighting. Compare scenarios."
"Scenario 1: Juggernaut walks to Hulk in plain street clothes as seen in the comic and starts hitting him. Hulk doesn't fight back for a reason."
"Scenario 2: Juggernaut in normal clothing walks to Hulk. A fight instantly begins as Hulk starts to fight back right away."
"BIIIIIIIIG difference. Why do you say not that it matters? Of course it matters. It's like saying Daredevil walks up to someone out of clothing and slaps them up. They person wouldn't fight back coz it's just a blind man. If they knew it was Daredevil and knew of his powers I doubt they'd stand there getting beat. Don't dismiss things."

Well, as I still said, it doesn't really matter, in my opinion, as I said. If a pretty large guy in street clothes walks up to the Hulk and hits him, which he can easily take, that first punch will tell him right away that this is no normal person, like if a blind man walks up to you starts slapping you around, u'll figure out pretty quick that he's not as blind as you thought. Like I said though, that DID put Hulk at a disadvantage, I guess you looked passed that part though, but again, just my opinion.

"Prove to me right here that Juggernaut was never physically hurt. Did he not shout "IMPOSSIBLE!"? Impossible to what? Getting thrown up in the air? Coz I swear Gladiator did that also. So he must have been saying "IMPOSSIBLE!" to something else. Possibly that he got hurt.....possibly....maybe....probably."

Prove to me that he was physically hurt, if you wanna go that route. He was thrown in the air, SO WHAT?! He falls and continues the fight as always, it doesn't hurt him. And Gladiator, he never met Juggernaut in the mainstream, just the cartoon. ANd even after that, he fell in the middle of the ocean and simply walked to New York. And if you're someone like Juggernaut, whose already out-muscled Hulk on a couple of occacions beforehand, and thenfind yourself being outmatched, even stopped dead in your tracks by a new suped up Hulk, you'd be yelling impossible too.

"I swear he's fought him on his own with his own strength and been fine with it. Taking back to their first fight, if Juggernaut attacked him from behind, it wouldn't have ended the fight. Hulk would have been even more angry that Juggernaut did that and the fight would continue. Lastly, Hulk's strength is unlimited. Unless Juggernaut has unlimited physical strength, he cannot match or best Hulk."

Yeah, he was fine in their first fight, for a while anyways. Then as I said, Hulk started to tire out and blows were getting weaker, even Hulk said it in the middle of the fight, while the Juggernaut was still fresh and as strong as when he started. And I agree with you on this, if Juggernaut did attack from behind, the Hulk would've been pretty pissed and that would've been a two issue fight. And, Hulk's full strength is still unmeasured, meaning it may have no limit, and I'm sure it probably doesn't, given the the proper motivation of course. And also, Juggernaut's full strength is still unmeasured also. Now you can debate this as you want, but as has been seen, Juggernaut has already matched, and a few times bested the Hulk.

"He wasn't so "Immortal" in The End. Guess who else wasn't? The whole universe."

Well no sh*t. Now I don't know if you're talking about a comic issue or in general. But I'll say this, if Eternity feels the need to to wipe out the universe and start fresh, then he'll do so and everyone will go. Includign the Juggernaut. That's a no-brainer. Why you even brought up something like that is unknown to me, and pointless. Again though, just my opinion.

"You seem to forget that, as I have continually pointed out, Juggernaut wears magically super-enhanced armour. Hulk wears levis and still takes things just as bad as Juggernaut and comes back, meaning that he isn't SHIELDED. He actually has to take them and heal from them, which he does."

Yes he does wear a magically super-enhanced armor, which I stated already, probably just another thing you happened to read past though. And yeah, Hulk has taken some serious damage before and come back too. Hulk has the greatest healing factor in Marvel, far better than Wolverine's. He's been nearly burned to a crisp and healed within seconds. And like I said, Juggernaut doesn't need the armor for anything other than superpowered clothing. He not only fought Hulk in streetclothes, but Colossus as well. He let Colossus do his worse on him, and then laid him out with a single punch.

"Yet, the Juggernaut, stood there, stripped to the bone, with nothing but his helmet.."
"Which was strangely triangular....which his head isn't."

You know what, can't even argue with you on that one. If you really have a problem with it though, ask Marvel's arstists about it.

"He isn't unstoppable at all. He has been stopped. You cannot be mentally unstoppable and physically unstoppable. Just unstoppable. He is neither as proven by War Hulk when he sorta tried to RUN away and War Hulk grabbed him and hurled him skyward. Enhanced or not, it proves he's not unstoppable. Besides, those words written by Cyttorak were uttered eons before. Back when Hulk didn't exist, maybe then the power was unstoppable. In the 20th century however, I'll think you'll find he's quite stoppable."

Mentally unstoppable and physically unstoppable? Where did that come from? Anyways, yes he was stopped cold, by a celestially powered Hulk as I said. And since Celestially energy is by nature unknown, it doesn't surprise me too much. Give anyone enough strength then they can accomplish almost anything. Now going with what if's here, maybe the Juggernaut wasn't completely stopped, possibly just slowed to a point where it looks as if he stopped. I can't say though, so you don't have to take that seriously. And also, at one point, Thing strength was brought up nearly a hundred fold (not sure it was actually that much, but was plenty though, far stronger than anyone on Earth) by Mephisto to take out the Beyonder. Now, instead of using it for it's intended purpose, he used it on the army of super-villains that Mephisto put together to take out the Beyonder, and did it with ease. Mephisto took those powers away those powers just as the last villain, who happened to be the Juggernaut, came foward. Had Thing still had that strength, he could've easily beaten Juggernaut, maybe even stopped him cold. Instead, he was laid out after 3 blows. Now he actually outlasted Colossus, but he still fell regardless. Now give anyone overly enhanced strength, anyone can slow, even stop the Juggernaut dead in his tracks. But the Hulk the way he is now just can't do it. Oh, and that was Secret Wars II #7 if you wanted to know.

"Doesn't that seem a bit....I dunno.......chicken? For someone who's so unstoppable of course. Also a guy who cannot be hurt. Why does he need a forcefield? Why do the writers believe he needs a forcefield? Wait.....could it.....nahhhhh. Wait.......Could it be......for.....PROTECTION!?"

Hmmmmm, chicken. I'd personally say convient. Now, Juggernaut doesn't use his shield all the time, and rarely in fights from what I've seen. He only uses it when he doesn't want something bothering him, like Spider-Man's webbing in The Amazing Spider-Man #230. Now, he doesn't really need the force-field, on the other hand, if he had used it against Nimrod when he used his futuristic weaponry to attack Juggernaut's mind and nervous system with a tight-beam high-frequency sound waves and a synapse dislocate that jammed his neural impulses, he may have proved even invunerable to this weapon. But that's debatable.

"Wait, indestructible armour? Doesn't this make all of his truck explosion, molten lava escapades a bit tainted? Considering he also has a forcefield. Hmm. Weird that. Lets see him take those with no armour. He can be affected with psionics without his helmet as proven by Psylocke."

Like I just said, other than the reason I said, he doesn't need the armor to protect him. Now if you wanna get debatable on that, his arms aren't covered, how about that? Now, if you don't believe that, in Thor #412, Firestar heated his armor to the point that it was white hot, yet Juggernaut continued on without even acknowledging her attack. Now, Psylocke using her telepathy on him, you are talking about during the whole Onslaught Crossover, which was by the way one of the most horribly unorganized and overrated crossover in comic history? Now, I can't argue with you on that, that's one you'd have to take to the writers, cause even Marvel said, many many times, before and after Onslaught, that you cannot use telepathy on Juggernaut while his helmet is on. Still can't accept it? Too bad, just take it up with Stan Lee or something.

I would go with Hulk on this one

Continuation of my last post

"He is more than a physical match and yes you can hurt Juggernaut as Wynddar has continually proven. Nightcrawler did so."

Okay, I'll take back a comment. Hulk is in fact a match for Juggernaut. Juggarnaut said so himself. Hulk is the only person, besides Thor, that Juggernaut considers nearly his equal in physical power. And as I've said, NO, he cannot be physical hurt, not by anything Hulk can hit him with anyways. Now if you can tell me just how then I will definitely reconsider my statement, cause I didn't read Wynddar's statement on this, so i'll look in on it. And when did Nightcrawler hurt Juggernaut and How?

Oh, some issue a million years ago Nightcrawler stucka torch in his face and I guess he felt that. Could go back the eye thing though. I guess his eyes aren't invulnerable, and if that's true, then he probably didn't enjoy a lit torch shoved in his face. But looking at all the other times flames have been used on him to zero effect.. can't imagine the little torch in his face was that big a deal.

Now, if you won't believe my words, then here's the words straight from Marvel, so don't try to argue with me if you disagree with any of this, take it with Marvel.

"Cain Marko is a human juggernaut. Once he begins moving in a certain direction, no power on Earth can stand in his way. Scientists would classify him as an "irresistible force" --and when he gets a head of steam, there's no object he can't move. A mystically enpowered human, Juggernaut has long harbored resentment toward his stepbrother, Charles Xavier --the telepathic mentor of the X-Men."

"The Juggernaut possesses untold power, mystical in nature, which enhances his strength and grants him an extraordinary degree of resistance to all forms of injury. Once he begins moving in a certain direction, no force on Earth can stop him -- only slow his pace. Sustained by the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak, Cain Marko can survive indefinitely without food, water or oxygen. However, Juggernaut is vulnerable to magical forces of sufficient strength. Without his helmet, constructed of an unknown mystical metal, he is susceptible to psionic attack."

Now if you'd like, I can also pull out the statements from "The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe". The statements here now are just from Marvel's official website.

Originally posted by Vash TFA
Victor, when you take quotes from multiple posters you kind of jumble it all up. It's hard to tell who're your replying to sometimes when you do that.

Nothing I said about his sensory vulnerability contradicts itself. He felt pain in his ears from loud sound.. when the sound was over.. no more pain, unlike a normal person who's ears would continue to ring and hurt for minutes after the sound had stopped. What's really not to get about that?

Happy now? I'm sure people can recognise their own quotes.

The contradiction is that you calim he is physically invulnerable, BUT FOR. This means HE IS NOT. The fact that the pain does not continue is neither he nor there: he apparently feels no pain, BUT FOR his eyes and ears.

Vic's verdict? He feels pain.

You also said:

'As for War Hulk stopping him. Sure, that happened. But with all the augmentation Apocalypse did on Hulk for that fight one can hardly say that Hulk really did it on his own. The combined cosmic energy of two universes is already well beyond Hulk's own power, if Hulk was up against the combined cosmic energy of two univereses.. he'd do a lot more than stop walking forward when it hit him.'

It matters not what it would have done to Hulk- what matters is that he CANNOT then claim to be unstoppable, for he was stopped.

Verdict: he can be stopped.

THEUNSTOPABLE said: (nice spelling btw)

'And as I've said, NO, he cannot be physical hurt, not by anything Hulk can hit him with anyways. Now if you can tell me just how then I will definitely reconsider my statement, cause I didn't read Wynddar's statement on this, so i'll look in on it. And when did Nightcrawler hurt Juggernaut and How?'

If you don't know, why are you claiming he cannot be hurt? You obviously have limited knowledge.

THEUNSTOPABLE again:

'But I'll say this, if Eternity feels the need to to wipe out the universe and start fresh, then he'll do so and everyone will go. Includign the Juggernaut. That's a no-brainer. Why you even brought up something like that is unknown to me, and pointless. '

He said it because...it kinda rains on the idea of invincibility and immortality, I'd have thought.

All that is being claimed for Hulk here is immeasurable strength- this is accepted in Marvel. Juggernaut's abilities however are clearly far from accepted.

Okay, that makes sense Vash. I also remember when Shatterstar put a sword threw his eye. I don't know if it hurt or not, but all he did was blink it off, and there his eye was again. He complimented Shatterstar afterwards for fighting so dirty.