Hulk should win it, I gave up reading this thread somewhere around the 100s. it's been a fascinating and funny read, loved AC and Doom's input.
Ok, here's the reason I'm posting (my first post incidentally). I think I have a rationale for saying Hulk would eventually win (yeah, I'm a tad arrogant, but then I'm taking a Roman God's name as my username).
The Juggernaut is, as far as I can figure, a mechanism for transforming a fraction of a vast but FINITE magical power into PHYSICAL power - the much vaunted forward momentum and the durability.
That being the case, when faced against an INFINITE (limitless) PHYSICAL counterforce, he would eventually come to use up the magical power source that he is dependant upon. It +would+ happen, because there's no other expression of that magical power, in the physical terms of this 'fight', which could come into play to counter +limitless+ physical power of The Hulk.
Originally posted by janus77
Hulk should win it, I gave up reading this thread somewhere around the 100s. it's been a fascinating and funny read, loved AC and Doom's input.Ok, here's the reason I'm posting (my first post incidentally). I think I have a rationale for saying Hulk would eventually win (yeah, I'm a tad arrogant, but then I'm taking a Roman God's name as my username).
The Juggernaut is, as far as I can figure, a mechanism for transforming a fraction of a vast but FINITE magical power into PHYSICAL power - the much vaunted forward momentum and the durability.
That being the case, when faced against an INFINITE (limitless) PHYSICAL counterforce, he would eventually come to use up the magical power source that he is dependant upon. It +would+ happen, because there's no other expression of that magical power, in the physical terms of this 'fight', which could come into play to counter +limitless+ physical power of The Hulk.
I suggest you go read from about 330 to current, and them come back with your argument.
why, what's happened to the Juggernaut since then?
looking at some of the postings from the past few days, looks like the same old stuff is being said again and again.
I thought it was a given that the source of Juggernaut's powers was itself not infinite, thus giving rise to the scenario I presented in my initial posting.
but aren't all these 'beings' (can't be arsed to remember comic book nomenclature), in some sort of established ranking with some definitely more powerful than others, Cyttorak being one who is not quite so powerful (thus negating any possibility of being infinitely powerful)?
agree with your point that even if Cyttorak was infinite, there's no reason to believe that Juggernaut instantly has access to infinite reserves of power.
oh erm while I'm here, can I ask what/who is the most powerful 'thing' in Marvel Comics (confining my question to things on and in the pages of Marvel Comics)?
According to Marvel and traditional Hulklore, perhaps Hulk would be stronger than Galactus, if Galactus has an upper limit to his strength.
The issue is simple, Hulk is sold as having +limitless+ strength, and we see examples of that in the feats he accomplishes.
Juggernaut has been shown to be capable of feeling physical pain, of being out strengthed and knocked out. He has shown to be a vastly powerful but +limited+ character who derives his power from a +finite+ source. Thus it all comes down to that clash between an ever more powerful Hulk and a highly durable but finite Juggernaut.
Juggernaut should not have a chance of securing a victory, the Hulk should be able to weaken and perhaps totally break the Cyttorak enchantment purely through engaging with it via the 'mechanism' (Juggernaut) that converts magical power into physical force and resistance (forward momentum and durability).
Originally posted by janus77
but aren't all these 'beings' (can't be arsed to remember comic book nomenclature), in some sort of established ranking with some definitely more powerful than others, Cyttorak being one who is not quite so powerful (thus negating any possibility of being infinitely powerful)?agree with your point that even if Cyttorak was infinite, there's no reason to believe that Juggernaut instantly has access to infinite reserves of power.
oh erm while I'm here, can I ask what/who is the most powerful 'thing' in Marvel Comics (confining my question to things on and in the pages of Marvel Comics)?
Go check out Mr. Masters Phoenix Force gets Crushed Thread for a good Hierarchy of Cosmic beings in Marvel, As far As Cytorrak is concerned.
Powers and abilities
Cytorrak exists as a deity with spectacular magical power. He has provided power to the titanic Juggernaut through an enchanted ruby, as well as provide indestructible bands (the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak) to Doctor Strange to use as a shield or to restrain enemies. In regards to the ruby, it has withstood being thrown into orbit by the Juggernaut, as well as re-entry when it was bumped out of orbit by Nova.
Stevie, a spoiled little boy from the Midwest, managed to use the Cyttorak Ruby to spectacular effects unimagined by Cain Marko, starting with using it to blast Marko. He used it to monitor events far away with his computer (presumably he utilized the ruby to enable him to access the feed of security cameras) as well as using the ruby to relay a message to the East Coast using a non-operational computer on the West Coast. Furthermore, he could alter mirrors so that the original Human Torch's flame was reflected-and enhanced-back against him. Even stranger, Stevie could animate inanimate objects, which could also turn intangible. These objects included wax statues, some which resembled monsters, others that resembled Spider-Man, Doctor Doom, Cable, etc. However, the animated statues tended only to have diluted copies of the original’s abilities, and tended to move slowly.
As well, Cyttorak has demonstrated the ability to create life (Dr. Strange (vol.3) #44), when he created an entire race of elves out of magical energy simply so he could have somebody to worship and adore him. His magical abilities are massive and far-reaching, possibly eclipsing that of the most powerful mystical entities still confined to Earth, such as Odin and Zeus.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
The source is probably infinite, but that doesn't mean the Juggernaut has access to it unless Cyttorak grants it him?
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Stevie used the Gem of Cytorrak for other purposes, by focusing and truly harnessing its vast mystical Energy's.
Juggernaut uses it to bully people, this does not mean however he cant focus (8th day saga) and use the Gems other powers, or just to simply increase his strength, when Cain first became the Juggernaut, he had undefined Telepathic abilities among other things.
Originally posted by janus77now your just being silly!!
According to Marvel and traditional Hulklore, perhaps Hulk would be stronger than Galactus, if Galactus has an upper limit to his strength.The issue is simple, Hulk is sold as having +limitless+ strength, and we see examples of that in the feats he accomplishes.
Juggernaut has been shown to be capable of feeling physical pain, of being out strengthed and knocked out. He has shown to be a vastly powerful but +limited+ character who derives his power from a +finite+ source. Thus it all comes down to that clash between an ever more powerful Hulk and a highly durable but finite Juggernaut.
Juggernaut should not have a chance of securing a victory, the Hulk should be able to weaken and perhaps totally break the Cyttorak enchantment purely through engaging with it via the 'mechanism' (Juggernaut) that converts magical power into physical force and resistance (forward momentum and durability).
Originally posted by bigbran
now your just being silly!!
even if every hulk, as mad as they wanted attacked a non jobbing galactus, there would be a lot of green shit to pick up.
if you say hulk can becum that strong, then how can anyone take you seriously?
of course it would look silly that an ant-sized green being would be able to throw a fully grown man (I guess the respective proportions are even more dramatically contrasting) but, we are talking about green men and big purple planet eating creatures... better to go with the logic of the 'characters' no? Hulk is meant to embody this limitless - rage/fury/anger/fear based - power, and so he does. it manifests as limitless strength.
Galactus could probably squish Hulk, because whatever level of strength Hulk is 'hulking upto', Galactus is far far beyond it to start with but, if given the opportunity, the logic of the character would impel me to say he could be as strong as Galactus, +provided+ Galactus has some sort of upper limit to his strength.
the interesting question would be how on earth (no pun intended) Hulk would get some purchase on Galactus, what Hulk could do... as he'd have to jump out of earth's atmosphere in order to even get at Galactus... and in space I imagine all he'd have are asteroids to pop at Galactus.
Originally posted by janus77
what's the point of saying "limitless" if we are meant to impose limits because it'd look silly?of course it would look silly that an ant-sized green being would be able to throw a fully grown man (I guess the respective proportions are even more dramatically contrasting) but, we are talking about green men and big purple planet eating creatures... better to go with the logic of the 'characters' no? Hulk is meant to embody this limitless - rage/fury/anger/fear based - power, and so he does. it manifests as limitless strength.
Galactus could probably squish Hulk, because whatever level of strength Hulk is 'hulking upto', Galactus is far far beyond it to start with but, if given the opportunity, the logic of the character would impel me to say he could be as strong as Galactus, +provided+ Galactus has some sort of upper limit to his strength.
the interesting question would be how on earth (no pun intended) Hulk would get some purchase on Galactus, what Hulk could do... as he'd have to jump out of earth's atmosphere in order to even get at Galactus... and in space I imagine all he'd have are asteroids to pop at Galactus.
The notion of you even comparing Hulk to a man who could destroy the universe 10x over is baffling.
I'm truly dumbfounded, left in utter disbelief and shock by Hulk fans, truly.
😐
Originally posted by janus77we could put hulk at the highest hes ever been, and there is still nothing he could do to galactus.
what's the point of saying "limitless" if we are meant to impose limits because it'd look silly?of course it would look silly that an ant-sized green being would be able to throw a fully grown man (I guess the respective proportions are even more dramatically contrasting) but, we are talking about green men and big purple planet eating creatures... better to go with the logic of the 'characters' no? Hulk is meant to embody this limitless - rage/fury/anger/fear based - power, and so he does. it manifests as limitless strength.
Galactus could probably squish Hulk, because whatever level of strength Hulk is 'hulking upto', Galactus is far far beyond it to start with but, if given the opportunity, the logic of the character would impel me to say he could be as strong as Galactus, +provided+ Galactus has some sort of upper limit to his strength.
the interesting question would be how on earth (no pun intended) Hulk would get some purchase on Galactus, what Hulk could do... as he'd have to jump out of earth's atmosphere in order to even get at Galactus... and in space I imagine all he'd have are asteroids to pop at Galactus.
