Negation is basically cancelling something out, for lack of better explanation. They are trying to say that with his magic on he is unstoppable until they are negated (cancelled out or manipulated), which he isn't. Physically invulnerable until negation he may be. Unstoppable he is not, because he is stopped through negation.
Vash is just so confused and is quite frankly hiding behind JF. JF isn't doing the best job of understanding it either.
I don't WANT this to turn into a vicious argument and for it to do so would be stupid. However I'm not the one calling JF an idiot, he has done so to me twice. Pointlessly. I have continually gave clear-cut and easily understandable points and reasons that they don't get. Which I don't understand, coz they're easy points.
So that's basically it. It's not really about who would win. He believes Juggernaut would win, I believe Hulk would. It's not become a debate over Juggernaut's abilities that I am, like it or not, winning.
-AC
'ok, maybe this will help. Juggernaut is unstoppable. with me so far?? so long as his magics are not negated he is unstoppable. that is like saying hulk has unlimited strength, unless you stopped his adrenal glands from working.'
No, no it's not. Hulk's strength is resultant from his adrenaline. If they are stopped, then he can't access his strength. It doesn't mean if you restart them, he doesn't have unlimited strength.
However, look. 'Juggernaut is unstoppable. with me so far?? so long as his magics are not negated he is unstoppable.'
His magic is able to be cancelled, therefore he can be stopped.
'But if his magic is working..' And? It can be stopped, therefore he can be stopped. It's a stoppable source, therefore the power is stoppable. Quite plain and simple.
i get what you are saying about unstoppability alpha. i always have. but what im trying to tell you is that there juggernaut IS unstoppable. if you put a physical object or force (wheather it be a rock, hulk, a cosmic blast, or galactus foot) it will be pushed back. juggernaut is completely and utterly physically unstoppable. BUT, if you negate his magics (the very magics that make him unstoppable) he is no longer unstoppable.
i can quite clearly see what you are saying. and i agree with it. but i also am trying to clear it up with you. you need to understand that. had hulk not had that particular energy, he wouldnt have stopped him at all.
back to war hulk. regular hulk cannot produce the same results. banner in one universe. hulk in the other....... thats what apocalypse picked up on. he allowed him to harness the energy from both universes using celestial technology. he was amped up severily. even dr strange picked up on this disturbance, and tried to cast the bands over hulk. which broke because of the other dimensional energies he was possessed of. apocalypse allowed him to harness THAT energy. not hulks true potential.
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
'ok, maybe this will help. Juggernaut is unstoppable. with me so far?? so long as his magics are not negated he is unstoppable. that is like saying hulk has unlimited strength, unless you stopped his adrenal glands from working.'No, no it's not. Hulk's strength is resultant from his adrenaline. If they are stopped, then he can't access his strength. It doesn't mean if you restart them, he doesn't have unlimited strength.
However, look. 'Juggernaut is unstoppable. with me so far?? so long as his magics are not negated he is unstoppable.'
His magic is able to be cancelled, therefore he can be stopped.
'But if his magic is working..' And? It can be stopped, therefore he can be stopped. It's a stoppable source, therefore the power is stoppable. Quite plain and simple.
ok put it this way...... if cyttorak himself was charging, you couldnt stop him period. because you cant cut him off from his power source. its the same thing with juggernaut, except you -can- cut him off from his power source. i think you both have primitive thinking and cant understand this concept.
hulk = limitless strength that is clearly accepted. but lets say that a powerful sourceror put a spell on his adrenal glands to make them quit functioning. he no longer has unlimited strength.
juggernaut = unstoppable. but lets say you negate the magics (adrenal glands) that allow this to happen, he would only then be haulted.
BUT if you put a physical object, no matter what it is in front of him, it/they better be prepared to be pushed backwards. you cannot hault his forward momentum without negation.
"i get what you are saying about unstoppability alpha. i always have. but what im trying to tell you is that there juggernaut IS unstoppable. if you put a physical object or force (wheather it be a rock, hulk, a cosmic blast, or galactus foot) it will be pushed back. juggernaut is completely and utterly physically unstoppable. BUT, if you negate his magics (the very magics that make him unstoppable) he is no longer unstoppable."
This isn't unstoppability though JF. It's physical invulnerability. He may be physically invulnerable, I will say that from what I've seen it seems that way. Because the Onslaught thing is neither disproveable OR provable. Yet he isn't unstoppable because he can be stopped. However I will agree to disagree on the physical INVULNERABILITY side of things. That's all I'm saying. That he may have invulnerability but he does not have unstoppability It's confusing the terms. But now we are actually down to understanding each other. I'll continue.
"back to war hulk. regular hulk cannot produce the same results. "
He actually does though, in Hulk #446.
"hulk = limitless strength that is clearly accepted. but lets say that a powerful sourceror put a spell on his adrenal glands to make them quit functioning. he no longer has unlimited strength."
He no longer has ACCESS to that unlimited strength. It's still there in the sense that when the spell wears off, he will have it again.
"juggernaut = unstoppable. but lets say you negate the magics (adrenal glands) that allow this to happen, he would only then be haulted. "
I get what you're saying but like, the notion "unstoppable " is being contradicted by even saying that he can be stopped. You cannot be half way unstoppable but we've worked out that you mean he is just physically INVULNERABLE. By merely sectioning off Hulk's strength, you're not going against the notion that it's there, it's still there. He just cannot use it. Juggernaut being unstoppable then stoppable, proves he isn't.
"you cannot hault his forward momentum without negation."
His momentum is the famous unstoppable factor, yet it can be stopped. He may be physically invulnerable, but unstoppable he is not.
-AC
I'll say this, some damn good responses and opinions have come from both sides, and I agree with the majority of it all. Here's how I see most of it though, mostly just my opinion I'll admit, so you don't have to take it seriously, but I do hope you all take it into consideration.
Now, the unstoppable thing, I'lll decide not to connect that word with the Juggernaut cause that seems to stir up trouble, lol. But, I do see the point you're making Alpha, it's pretty literal, but a good point nonetheless. And so's everyone else's. Now here's what Marvel says about that point, " Once he begins moving in a certain direction, no force on Earth can stop him -- only slow his pace," and here it is from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, "The Juggernaut possesses untold power, mystical in nature, which enhances his strength to an as yet unknown degree and makes him a seemingly irresistible, unstoppable being. Once he begins to walk in a certain direction, no obstacle or force on Earth has been observed to be able to stop him. Apparently, only he can stop himself. Some obstacles (many tons of rock, for example) or forces (such as plasma-discharge cannons) may slow his pace considerably, but nothing has yet stopped him permanently from advancing." Now, what everyone's refering to on the whole unstoppable issue, which I'm not pinning the Juggernaut, is that when he starts walking a certain direction, there's nothing known on earth to stop him. Walls, buildings, etc. If he wanted to walk through a mountain, he could do it, it may take him a few days, or months, or years, or even decades maybe, but he's getting through that mountain regardless. Only he can stop his movement. You can't physically halt his movement, with either your own strength, an optic blast, even a godforce blast, no physical force to his body will work. Now about the pyschic and magic being used on him, I see your point. In my opinion though, psychic assaults to his head aren't really force upon his body. It's going directly into his head, and with the pain felt there, of course he'll stop his movement, a way of beating the system in a way. I wouldn't really count telekineses though, since he's already beaten that on two occasions against Jean Grey. And magic, to an extent, is kind of the same. Magic that usually does cut his own magic off isn't really force upon his body. Of course, it's used to negate his magic, thus making his weaker and easier to hurt, like whe Thor did with his hammer, making it a much more fair fight while it lasted. Now, magic blast on the other hand, that's debatable. I don't know if Thor's godforce goes under this or not, but it did succeed in pshing Juggernaut back, a feat in itself that was thought impossible. Juggernaut was about to attempt to start back foward, before the ground under him collapsed, so that issue's still in the air pretty much. Now, that's my opinion on that situation. Never gave Juggernaut the title of unstoppable, cause I will agree with you on that Alpha, but I will still stick with him not being able to be stopped by physical force. AlthoughWar did do it, but that's still on debate on whether it was his own strength or celestial energy, so I'm not even touching that issue, I'll be here all day if I do, lol.
Okay, my opinion on Hulk vs. Juggernaut. Now, this obviously isn't the current versions of the two, otherwise the Hulk would murder him (thanks Suck Austen), So obviously this is old school Juggernaut so I'll go with that. Now, both are strong as hell, their true limits unknown. It's said Hulk has the capacity for nearly limitless strength, and I agree with this. I'm pretty sure one day he might just be strong enough to crack a planet like an egg, only thing is he hasn't gotten that far in strength. And while his strength might be limitless, unfortunately his anger isn't, he usually only gets pissed to a certain point, although that might be lucky for the rest of the world. He has yet to be really pushed to the point where he reaches a maximum output of strength, so it's still unknown. And of course Hulk has his healing factor, the best in Marvel, many times better than Wolverine's. He's been burned to a crisp and healed in a very short time, a great advantage in this bout. And there's his endurance, which you can probably thank the adrenaline for. I read before that a near-hit with a nuke could kill him, but that could be debatable, if you consider Maestro.
Now Juggernaut is damn strong too, probably the only person in Hulk's league on Earth. Like Hulk, he's never really been shown to use his full strength either, so it's unknown, so it's obvious that he's stronger than Hulk before he starts hype and get the adrenaline flowing, it's just a question of how much stronger. Maybe Hulk can (or has) surpase him, or maybe not, it's debatable so I'll leave that up in the air. I already talked about Juggernaut's ability to not be physicaly stopped (still not saying unstoppable) so I'll close that part. Now, the one thing that his powers do for him is make him invunerable to physically harm or pain (with the exception of the eyes, but I think we've all had enough of that for now). His skin is inpenetrable, meaning no knife, spike, bullet, missile, or adamantium claw is able to get through it. And if it so happens that he does get injured in some way (like a sword in the eye, or having his flesh magically removed), his powers will regenerate him almost instantly. And of course, he has his personal force field, which he doesn't use too often, especially in physical bouts like this, but of course it's still there. And, he can live indefinitely without food, water, sleep, or air. He lives off the mystical energies alone. He never grows physically fatigued, his powers keep him from that.
Okay, I think that's all the relevant information that matters in this specific fight. I'm know y'all have been through it already, I just felt the need to put it out there, again, lol.
Now for the fight (Hulk knows he's fighting Juggernaut from the start of course). This would be good, no doubt, They'd both match each other blow for blow for a while, with Hulk getting stronger. Only thing is, as strong as Hulk gets, he'll neither hurt or wear down Juggernaut, he'll give it to him no doubt, but Juggernaut will keep on comin'. NOw the one thing that may come into question is Hulk's stamina. I know he can last for a long ass time, and this fight can possible go on for days. he did start to wear down and weaken in their first bout, but after some "motivation", he hulked up and got back in the game, so it's hard to say how long it'll last, but it might just be a problem for Hulk. What if it gets to the point where he wears down and changes back to Banner? Just a what if though. I think that's what it pretty much comes down to, stamina, and Juggernaut's mystical power gives him the unfair advantage on this one (yes I said unfair, it would be a ***** fighting someone who doesn't tire out). So, one way Hulk can take this is by maybe making a cliff, or possibly even a canyon, collapse on Juggernaut, which will take years for him to dig out of. Or in a fit of rage, he can throw him across an ocean of a couple of states. On into a volcano. But other than that, I don't see Hulk beating Juggernaut in a physical bout, not yet anyways. Juggernaut's mystcal powers makes this hard feat to accomplish. Although I wouldn't be surprised the day he did do it, But Hulk's not quite that far to do it just yet.
Now, this is simply my opinion, don't shoot me in the head or anything y'all, lol. Stamina's the key here, to me at least. The Hulk has it in spades, for Juggernaut it's a non-factor though. But anything's possible though, Hulk's proved that more than once.
As far as anyone winning this debate, I don't see it that way. Both Alpha and JuggernautFan are coming up with really good points here, so no one can really say anyone's winning, again, just my opinion(Remember Alpha, I kept unstoppable out of my vocabulary, lol).
Now, how about Ultimate Hulk vs. Ultimate Juggernaut? Or is that another thread entirely?