Hey, I have a idea.
'Maybe' Juggernaught has a "Gladiator" issue. Like Gladiator loses his strength when his ego takes a dive ....so maybe Juggy has it where his invulnerability is affected? He see's somebody (in this case big and green) knocking him around and poof!! invulnerability takes a powder.
Of course i'm only theorizing and NOT STATING FACTS! just putting out something to make you say hmmmm! who knows. 🤓
Yeah, an explaination on what most of the things Onslaught was capable of would be nice, especially taking the Gem of Cyttorak out of Juggernaut's chest, which I swore Juggernaut threw into space after his second fight with the Hulk, so no one else could use it against him. I don't know too much about that particular story though, so if anyone does know about it let me know.
"No man you need to understand something. War Hulk stopped him. But wait, you say, that was Apocalypse helping. Yeah true. However, if you think your little "no force on Earth" rule helps. It doesn't, coz En Sabah Nur was Egyptian. His force is capable of stopping Juggernaut, hence why War Hulk did. He also existed at the time of Cytorrak if I remember correctly, being an immortal. So that notion wasn't even correct when it was made by Cytorrak."
The combined cosmic energy of 2 universes is not Apocalypse's power. That being said (and I hope understood) Apocalypse's power did not stop Juggernaut. Nor did Hulk's power. It was no mere physical force, it was infact the combined cosmic energy from TWO UNIVERSES that stopped Juggernaut in his tracks and threw him around afterwards. Do you realize how big a universe is? It's infinite.. and the cosmic energy it holds is also limitless.. taking into account that TWO universes worth of said (and vastly uncharted) energy was used to stop Juggernaut's forward motion, neither Hulk, nor Apocalypse's combined power would be enough to stop Juggernaut. It infact required, an enraged Hulk, Apocalypse's brain, a suit of Celestial armor and (I'll say it again) two universes worth of cosmic energy, to stop Juggernaut. And by "stop" I mean it took all that just to stop his feet from moving, it prevented him from walking forward. It didn't actually hurt him when War used that unphathomable power against Juggernaut. He basically got beat on by the entire power of the universe x2. And it still couldn't make him bleed, or even bruise him. All it proved is that two universes worth of cosmic energy was too much force for Juggernaut to push, obviously if Juggernaut was up against the universe itself, it would be too much for him to move. Big.. deal.. Hulk couldn't exactly move the universe either, let alone two of them.
Cosmic energy isn't exactly a physical thing.. so it wasn't physical force that stopped him. War Hulk proved unable to stop him even in his insanely enraged state while wearing Celestial armor, it was only after channeling the cosmic energy of two universes through said armor that he overpowered Juggernaut. Very likely because cosmic energy may have some root as a magical energy or the other way around. Cosmic energy and magic may be closesly related, in the same family and thereby allowing such a vast ammount of cosmic energy to negate Juggernaut's magical power of unstoppability, which no physical level of force as ever proven to be able to do.
So in summation, no purely physical force has been proven to harm Juggernaut, or stop Juggernaut. Hulk has never of his own merits defeated Juggernaut. But Juggernaut has on his own beaten Hulk once.
As for Onslaught harming Juggernaut, pending an actual explanation from the writer, we can only gather it was some psionic manipulation of Juggernaut's own energies by Onslaught to negate his invulnerability and a bending of reality that allowed him to imprison Juggernaut in a gem he never had within his chest. Bending of reality and manipulating Juggernaut's own energies against him is not a physical feat, and therefore does not constitute an injury by physical force alone.
We can continue to disaggree and bring up Onslaught as the wild card in the deck of battles, but without some explanation as to how he did it, that is the most logical thing I can think of for how he did it.
it is not literally the power of two entire universes, that would have made war far more powerful than the celestials themselves.... and War would have easily been able to punch Juggs into another solar system....."the power of two entire universes"? come on be serious, do u realize how much power ur talking about...he was channelling the power of the other Hulk that was in the universe created by Franklin Richards....regardless it shows that Juggernauts boast of being unstoppable is only a boast and that his invulnerability is just very high durability...when he is going against weaklings ike Cyclops, then he is "unstoppable"...I know how Apoc went back and explain the whole deal about the two universes....but i thought it didnt make much sense for a character that already had "limitless strength" to have it doubled...but oh well, in a 2 on 1 fight against Jugs and Creel, the Hulk walked right through them without any trouble and they had to do everything they could to not get killed (Creel almost killed twice and Jugs almost beheaded once)....if it werent for his mental outburst he would have killed them both...what happened later? Hulk ripped off his costume and lost his powers? i really doubt it...i personally dont think that Apoc really increased his abilities at all, but was just manipulating the Hulk and gave him some weapons...if he really had the power of "two universes" War would have knocked Jugs and Apoc into the Andromeda galaxy and then taken on Galactus....in an earlier issue, "Radioactive and on the Run", immediately after fighting Onslaught, a raging Hulk displays far more power than War without any assistance from Apoc
"but war hulk did -not- stop him by using physical force. that is what i'm trying to emphasize here."
So he didn't throw him up in the air, get him on the floor and threaten to behead him?
"but you have said that secret wars was bad writing, and youve also refered to juggernaut being unstoppable as bad writing. plus several other feats of durability that juggernaut has shown in the past."
I never said Secret Wars was bad writing. I said for arguments sake the mountain part was a bit dubious. You claimed it wasn't in continuity. I never claimed Juggernaut being unstoppable was bad writing. I just claimed and proved he wasn't unstoppable. Although it's clear you do not understand that word.
"if anything, juggernaut being unstoppable is just as true as hulk having no limits to his strength. i still think hulk was pretty damn pissed. on the virge of insanity with rage sounds like he was pretty well raged out......"
Well I will say again, as proven he isn't unstoppable. Hulk is known over the years to have no limit and has proven it recently in Hulk comics where he continually reaches levels of strength that frighten him coz he never thought he WOULD reach that high of a level. Yet it depends on anger and lots of other things. I never denied he was mega angry as you could see in my post if you read it.
"it disorients him because of the equiliberium. if hulk hits juggernaut hard enough (doesnt cause him pain) but it can upset the liquids in the inner ear. juggernaut is no more immune from that than you and i"
So....technically Juggernaut is immune and unstoppable, conveniently to pain only? Everything else can knock him off balance and what not but pain is no issue? You seriously believe this? If so you surely cannot see how contradictory it was.
"hmmm, well the destoryer and juggernaut have proven just as capable of physical strength as hulk. i'd even be willing to be that mangog is just as strong/stronger than hulk also. he is not the strongest one there is."
Well seeing as you totally dismissed the act that puts Hulk above the rest, I can see why you feel he hasn't proven to be strongest. How the mountain is bad writing and Juggernaut being a 100 foot tall dimension tearer isn't I don't understand. Maybe you have to be a Juggernaut fan to understand, I dunno.
"and why do you revolve around onslaught?? around and around we go. i think the issue of strength is that juggernaut is stronger until hulk is sufficiently raged, and juggernaut is pretty much unstoppable. except under unusual circumstances. how about that for a compromise?? lol, and i'm glad i learned a trick or 2 from the man (thanks alpha). i'll long remember your ways, and use them to make MY posts more interesting."
I don't revolve around him. I just find it genuinely compelling that you and other Juggernaut fans call him "bad writing". Someone, I think you or Vash said "If you're a Juggernaut fan you wont like Onslaught's writing. Of course you'll think it's bad writing" or something like that. Pretty much says it all. No one else has a problem with that saga or Onslaught besides Juggernaut fans. Oh and I love that part "He's pretty much unstoppable, except....". Classic.
"you do nursery rhymes?? i suppose you are a male nurse to eh?? not to many men in your profession is there focker??"
This did genuinely crack me up. At least your movie taste is great. Haha.
"well its about attributes. juggernauts main gimmick is his durability. galactus is a far cry from being the most invulnerable person out there. so no it doesnt surprise me."
Says it all right there. But yes, there is another piece somewhere and neither of us know what it is so we shouldn't assume otherwise.
-AC
"Cosmic energy isn't exactly a physical thing.. so it wasn't physical force that stopped him."
You're talking to a guy who's read almost every Surfer appearance there is. Don't tell me about cosmic energy. Surfer has physically stopped enough people with it.
"As for Onslaught harming Juggernaut, pending an actual explanation from the writer"
Yes coz we all know the writer of one of the most exciting and loved sagas ever, owes you an explanation. Ha. Infact I challenge anyone here to tell me if they loved the Onslaught saga. Or liked it. Coz it seems as though only Juggernaut fans dislike it or parts OF it.
"but oh well, in a 2 on 1 fight against Jugs and Creel, the Hulk walked right through them without any trouble and they had to do everything they could to not get killed (Creel almost killed twice and Jugs almost beheaded once)....if it werent for his mental outburst he would have killed them both.."
Tis true, tis true.
"Radioactive and on the Run", immediately after fighting Onslaught, a raging Hulk displays far more power than War without any assistance from Apoc"
I own this comic. I verify. If you need further confirmation Jug fans, other than us, read the comic. Or I'm sure Vic has it, ask him.
Either way, it seems this debate is now getting a second wind.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So he didn't throw him up in the air, get him on the floor and threaten to behead him?
now i really understand. go to your comic collection. take out incredible hulk #457. open it up. re-read the issue. when juggernaut first innitiates the battle. he starts to charge war hulk. he pushs him back, he is at this point using his unstoppability.......war hulk then charges himself with the energy (whcih negates cain markos) which halts him on a dime. until this is done, he couldnt stop juggernaut. also, check every other time he punchs juggernaut. he is completely engulfed in the energy. even the sword at the end of the fight is charged when popping his helmet off.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"but you have said that secret wars was bad writing, and youve also refered to juggernaut being unstoppable as bad writing. plus several other feats of durability that juggernaut has shown in the past."
I never said Secret Wars was bad writing. I said for arguments sake the mountain part was a bit dubious. You claimed it wasn't in continuity. I never claimed Juggernaut being unstoppable was bad writing. I just claimed and proved he wasn't unstoppable. Although it's clear you do not understand that word.
i do understand the word. i'm just trying to explain it to you, because i have a better understanding of juggernaut and his powers, than you do. i also didnt claim it wasnt in continuity. you still have yet to prove he is unstoppable (by physical force). every power has a "back door" so to speak ant there are ways around it. but it doesnt change the fact that physical force cannot stop the juggernaut.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Well I will say again, as proven he isn't unstoppable. Hulk is known over the years to have no limit and has proven it recently in Hulk comics where he continually reaches levels of strength that frighten him coz he never thought he WOULD reach that high of a level. Yet it depends on anger and lots of other things. I never denied he was mega angry as you could see in my post if you read it.
as proven he is unstoppable. hulk has shown a limit. he couldnt over power 1) the destroyer 2) the juggernaut. both have similar qualities. coincidence??? i think not..... so just because banner thinks he is all high and mighty makes hulk that way??? i'm sure banner also knows every other force on the planet earth and exactly how strong they are to the T also. so sure he knows hulk is stronger than juggernaut, and the destroyer, and mangog (whom hes never even met). yea that puts your point on the map.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So....technically Juggernaut is immune and unstoppable, conveniently to pain only? Everything else can knock him off balance and what not but pain is no issue? You seriously believe this? If so you surely cannot see how contradictory it was.
yes, to pain only. the power doesnt change the anatomy of his body. it cant protect his balance also. so to answer your question, yes he is immune to pain, and unstoppable. except under dire circumstances. they are 2 totally different things and i cant see why you cant see this. balance and physical pain???
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Well seeing as you totally dismissed the act that puts Hulk above the rest, I can see why you feel he hasn't proven to be strongest. How the mountain is bad writing and Juggernaut being a 100 foot tall dimension tearer isn't I don't understand. Maybe you have to be a Juggernaut fan to understand, I dunno.
well, i just said thats juggernauts true potential. he has never done this himself. so i dont dismiss it. plus i think hulk was perfectly capable of doing what he did in secret wars. but juggernaut has matched him physically in all appearances (except war hulk) so there is no reason to think that he couldnt do the same.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't revolve around him. I just find it genuinely compelling that you and other Juggernaut fans call him "bad writing". Someone, I think you or Vash said "If you're a Juggernaut fan you wont like Onslaught's writing. Of course you'll think it's bad writing" or something like that. Pretty much says it all. No one else has a problem with that saga or Onslaught besides Juggernaut fans. Oh and I love that part "He's pretty much unstoppable, except....". Classic.
yes, there is an "except" at the end. but its nice to see that you are still not excepting the except !!!??? that is a bit confusing that last sentence. i will actually vote that i loved the onslaught saga. it was great no doubt. i liked the way the heroes sacrificed themselves as "earths last line of defense" and how they banned together. when they all came in to confront onslaught made the adrenaline in my veins run. but that doesnt change the fact that onslaught 1) couldnt beat hulk 2) hulk couldnt beat juggernaut 3) so just how in the F u c k can onslaught do what nobody else did????
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Says it all right there. But yes, there is another piece somewhere and neither of us know what it is so we shouldn't assume otherwise.
well, exactly. you cant assume onslaught defeated juggernaut physically. which is what you have been doing since the beginning. so have alot of other people. it is what is written so far *sigh* but -IF- they ever give an explanation i cant wait to say "i told you so"
Originally posted by Wynndar
it is not literally the power of two entire universes, that would have made war far more powerful than the celestials themselves.... and War would have easily been able to punch Juggs into another solar system.....
have you read the series??? he wasnt using the entire 2 universes worth of energy. or this would be totally true. but he was the focal point of "2 universes" worth of energy.
Originally posted by Wynndar
"the power of two entire universes"? come on be serious, do u realize how much power ur talking about...he was channelling the power of the other Hulk that was in the universe created by Franklin Richards....regardless it shows that Juggernauts boast of being unstoppable is only a boast and that his invulnerability is just very high durability...
he he he....... well even in that state of power, juggernaut was still unharmed.... so i dont know what durability into play here. but he was stopped because of the -unusualy- circumstances that lead up to this fight.
Originally posted by Wynndar
when he is going against weaklings ike Cyclops, then he is "unstoppable"...I know how Apoc went back and explain the whole deal about the two universes....but i thought it didnt make much sense for a character that already had "limitless strength"
oh you mean the "limitless strength" that couldnt even over power apoc/juggernaut (no matter how mad he was in that issue) or the destroyer??? yea sounds like unlimited to me too
Originally posted by Wynndar
to have it doubled...but oh well, in a 2 on 1 fight against Jugs and Creel, the Hulk walked right through them without any trouble and they had to do everything they could to not get killed (Creel almost killed twice and Jugs almost beheaded once)
funny. usually when you die you dont come back. he just overloaded creel. if the other 2 people hadnt put creel back together in blocks, then creel would have eventually pulled himself back together...
Originally posted by Wynndar
....if it werent for his mental outburst he would have killed them both...what happened later? Hulk ripped off his costume and lost his powers?
yes actually he did rip it off and lose his powers. but i dont think he would have killed either.
Originally posted by Wynndar
i really doubt it...i personally dont think that Apoc really increased his abilities at all
thats your own stupidity he was charging his body, and sword with it. thats how he overloaded creel so easily. see if hulk has ever overloaded creel at a normal level of power. now alpha i believe has read the issue. but have you??? you are drawing innaccurate conclusions to this fight.
Originally posted by Wynndar
, but was just manipulating the Hulk and gave him some weapons...if he really had the power of "two universes" War would have knocked Jugs and Apoc into the Andromeda galaxy and then taken on Galactus....in an earlier issue, "Radioactive and on the Run", immediately after fighting Onslaught, a raging Hulk displays far more power than War without any assistance from Apoc
well he was only in 1 issue worth of pages in the comics. we dont know his limits. but he was made to battle celestials after all. and they are enormously powerful. but he was knocking juggs around. creel too. so that version of hulk you are talking about was tossing pyramids around like baseballs??? is that the kind of power that was in display?? without having any trouble what so ever in doing so?
"war hulk then charges himself with the energy (whcih negates cain markos) which halts him on a dime."
Yes, but he halts him either way. He's either totally unstoppable or he's not. It's that simple. You can't have him be unstoppable when you want.
"i do understand the word. i'm just trying to explain it to you, because i have a better understanding of juggernaut and his powers, than you do. i also didnt claim it wasnt in continuity. you still have yet to prove he is unstoppable (by physical force). every power has a "back door" so to speak ant there are ways around it. but it doesnt change the fact that physical force cannot stop the juggernaut."
I'm tired of proving it and you denying it. So if you take that as me not proving it, so be it man. Tired of this.
"so just because banner thinks he is all high and mighty makes hulk that way??? i'm sure banner also knows every other force on the planet earth and exactly how strong they are to the T also. so sure he knows hulk is stronger than juggernaut, and the destroyer, and mangog (whom hes never even met). yea that puts your point on the map."
Hulk's can move planets off their foundation with his potential strength. I doubt Juggernaut could.
"yes he is immune to pain, and unstoppable. except under dire circumstances."
So he isn't immune to physical FORCE, just physical pain? He is unstoppable, but stoppable sometimes? Is this your argument?
"well, i just said thats juggernauts true potential. he has never done this himself. so i dont dismiss it. plus i think hulk was perfectly capable of doing what he did in secret wars. but juggernaut has matched him physically in all appearances (except war hulk) so there is no reason to think that he couldnt do the same."
How has Juggernaut matched the stuff Hulk did in Secret Wars?
"yes, there is an "except" at the end. but its nice to see that you are still not excepting the except !!!??? that is a bit confusing that last sentence. i will actually vote that i loved the onslaught saga. it was great no doubt. i liked the way the heroes sacrificed themselves as "earths last line of defense" and how they banned together. when they all came in to confront onslaught made the adrenaline in my veins run. but that doesnt change the fact that onslaught 1) couldnt beat hulk 2) hulk couldnt beat juggernaut 3) so just how in the F u c k can onslaught do what nobody else did????"
It's not a matter of not excepting the except. Just not seeing how, with the term unstoppable, there can be one. It defies logic. I understand what you are saying about Onslaught but someone thought he could do what no one else could. You are basing on the fact that you don't believe Hulk can beat Juggernaut. Others do, others don't. It's conflicting opinions. Obviously the writers thought that Hulk was the man to take out Onslaught. If they had chosen Juggernaut, it would have been fine with me aswell. They didn't though.
"well, exactly. you cant assume onslaught defeated juggernaut physically. which is what you have been doing since the beginning. so have alot of other people. it is what is written so far *sigh* but -IF- they ever give an explanation i cant wait to say "i told you so"
And you cannot assume Onslaught didn't defeat Juggernaut physically. My reasons for thinking otherwise was that he was actually busted up. I find it hard to believe this came from psionic attack. I cannot prove otherwise and neither can you. So we shall just have to let sleeping dogs lie and believe what we want. Look, I've said before Juggernaut is one of my favourite villains. I think he is awesome and very intimidating. When you see him around you know there's gonna be trouble. I just don't think that he is better than Hulk is all. You think otherwise.
-AC
"So....technically Juggernaut is immune and unstoppable, conveniently to pain only? Everything else can knock him off balance and what not but pain is no issue? You seriously believe this? If so you surely cannot see how contradictory it was."
That's not really contradictory. If being knocked off balance was a result of feeling phyiscal pain.. then yes, it would be. But being knocked off balance has nothing to do with being hurt. Someone could hit you with a pillow, or a cardboard box and if you weren't expecting them to hit you that hard.. you could be knocked off balance by something that didn't cause you any pain. You can knock someone off balance if you have leverage, you just push hard enough and they fall, doesn't mean they were hurt as a result of the push or the fall itself.
And again, as for War stopping him with pure physical force, I still don't agree with that. The untold level of unknown energy he was surrounded with (cosmic, magic, or whatever it was) was something more than just brute force, more than just Hulk's muscles doing the work there. If infact the second universe in which Hulk drew his power from had physical laws that conflicted with Juggernaut's powers then it could of negated his unstoppable factor. It's a valid point because Juggernaut has been transported to other realities before in which his powers were affected, energy from another universe could cancle or weaken his powers if he came in contact with it.
Juggernaut has himself said that nothing in his world, this galaxy or this universe could stop him. (and he means physically, obviously he knows magics and psionics can stop him) But the phrase is "this universe". Nothing of his universe has been proven to without a doubt stop him with purely physical force. The energy of the second universe more than likely caused him to be stopped because in that other universe Juggernaut's powers wouldn't of functioned the same.
But none the less, stopped or not.. he wasn't harmed by any of War's attacks. And threatening to behead someone and actually doing it are two completely different things. For all we know the sword might of broke in the attempt.
"That's not really contradictory. If being knocked off balance was a result of feeling phyiscal pain.. then yes, it would be. But being knocked off balance has nothing to do with being hurt. Someone could hit you with a pillow, or a cardboard box and if you weren't expecting them to hit you that hard.. you could be knocked off balance by something that didn't cause you any pain. "
But if I claimed to be unstoppable and someone stopped me. It would be contradictory. What JF is saying is that he's unstoppable except under certain circumstances, which is BS. Coz you are either totally unstoppable or not unstoppable. There's no such thing as halfway unstoppable or being unstoppable to certain things. You are or you aren't and Juggernaut is not.
"And again, as for War stopping him with pure physical force, I still don't agree with that. The untold level of unknown energy he was surrounded with (cosmic, magic, or whatever it was) was something more than just brute force, more than just Hulk's muscles doing the work there. If infact the second universe in which Hulk drew his power from had physical laws that conflicted with Juggernaut's powers then it could of negated his unstoppable factor. "
I never said anything about pure physical force, but he stopped him. As I said in the above part, you cannot be unstoppable only to certain things. Juggernaut is not unstoppable because REGARDLESS of how it happened, he was halted and he was stopped. If the power War Hulk had negated his unstoppability, then he isn't unstoppable. It's not that hard to get, it's really not.
"Juggernaut has himself said that nothing in his world, this galaxy or this universe could stop him. (and he means physically, obviously he knows magics and psionics can stop him)"
Hahahahahaha. Will anyone please just read this? Funniest post ever. So, he thinks nothing can stop him in existance, yet he knows he can be stopped? No offence, but you are incredibly stupid. I don't mean that in an abusive way, I really do believe you are of a severe cranial deficiancy. "Oh he claims he is unstoppable but I will assume he means physically because that's what I want. He didn't actually say physically, but he did mean that. Because if he didn't mean physically, it would mean that he is actually stoppable." I'll wrap this up for you once and for all. Unstoppable includes everything. You cannot be PHYSICALLY unstoppable and MENTALLY stoppable. It's nonsense, you're either totally unstoppable or you are not. He isn't.
Unstoppable: Impossible to preclude or stop.
I dunno about you, but that JUST says "Impossible to preclude or stop". It doesn't say "Impossible to preclude or stop besides psionics and sounds and bad writing."
"But none the less, stopped or not.. he wasn't harmed by any of War's attacks. And threatening to behead someone and actually doing it are two completely different things. For all we know the sword might of broke in the attempt."
For all we know it might not have. So lets leave it up in the air. Vash, for your own sake, stop posting in this thread. Actually....keep posting. This thread needed some comic relief. Hahaha, funniest post ever, well done Vash.
-AC
There you go again.
Everyone (with the exception of yourself) knows that when they say Juggernaut is "unstoppable" that it means by "physical" force.
And knocking a standing Juggernaut off balance with a sonic attack is not "stopping" him War Hulk stopped him with whatever not-purely-physical force he used from the other universe. But Nimrod disorienting him with a sonic device and scrambling his brain with a synapsis dislocator is also.. not an act of stopping Juggernaut with physical force.
Juggernaut is.. physically unstoppable, physically invulnerable, physically indestructible and immune to physical pain. I don't recall anyone saying he was immune to mental pain, or psionically or cosmicaly unstoppable, or indestructible to magics.
All Juggernaut's powers apply to physical forces. Not psionic, cosmic or magical ones.
No ones ever built a wall he couldn't smash through, or a weapon that could make him bleed. No ones ever proven to be strong enough (War and Onslaught used otherwordly energies and psionic reality manipulation not brute force) to stop him, or even wound him.
"And knocking a standing Juggernaut off balance with a sonic attack is not "stopping" him War Hulk stopped him with whatever not-purely-physical force he used from the other universe."
Then you said:
"Juggernaut is.. physically unstoppable, physically invulnerable, physically indestructible and immune to physical pain. I don't recall anyone saying he was immune to mental pain, or psionically or cosmicaly unstoppable, or indestructible to magics."
Look, I'll say it again so you can understand it. If he is immune to physical force and pain. Fair enough. HOWEVER this does NOT, I repeat DOES NOT, make him UNSTOPPABLE. You cannot be JUST unstoppable to certain things. You are confusing being unstoppable with being affected. If he was immune to physical pain, indestructible and stuff. Fine. That, believe it or not, would not make him unstoppable. There may very well be certain things that CAN'T stop him, but there are certain things that can. For example Superman may have all the powers in the world, but show him kryptonite and he's a wet rag. Juggernaut could have all the power in the world, put him up against a telepath, psionic or someone with mental powers and he's toast.
Your point is that physical things cannot stop him, right? That's fine. BUT certain things CAN stop him. That means, even if he WAS invulnerable, he is NOT UNSTOPPABLE. Hopefully you understand it now. You cannot be unstoppable if you are capable of being stopped by ANY MEANS. Invulnerable and unstoppable are two different things. If I threw an adamantium pole at you, you could stop it by smashing it into a wall. It wouldn't be damaged but it would have been stopped. So invulnerable and indestructible are completely different than being unstoppable. Please learn this before you post anymore.
"No ones ever built a wall he couldn't smash through"
See above.
"or a weapon that could make him bleed."
When he landed in the crater after meeting Onslaught, he was bleeding by the mouth. It may have been Onslaught, it may have been the landing. Either way he bled.
"No ones ever proven to be strong enough (War and Onslaught used otherwordly energies and psionic reality manipulation not brute force) to stop him, or even wound him."
Where does it say that those things don't count? You don't understand this, it's actually tiring to keep explaining it to you. If someone isn't physically strong enough to stop him, then fair enough. However, there are people with other powers who can stop him. Which means he would be invulnerable and not unstoppable.
"physically indestructible"
That would make him unkillable. He's light years from being so.
Now I say this as a genuine request, please. Before you reply with all that unstoppable nonsense, please read what I've wrote. For once. I don't wanna have to explain it to you again. Really.
-AC
You may be "explaining" things. But I find your explanations are just as flawed as your grasp of what is meant by "unstoppable". I've already said that by "unstoppable" it's meant "physicaly unstoppable" as in no physical force or physical obstacle has ever stopped him, for that purpose we can say he is "phsyically unstoppable" just as you can say that since we've never seen Hulk's strength limit then it must mean he doesn't have one, same idea. Until we see it actually done, then it can't be done, and until we see Hulk reach his limit, he hasn't got one.
It seems as though everytime I clarify that I mean Juggernaut is "physically" something, you keep bringing up how he is suseptible to psionics. Once I began talking about his physical invulnerability, psionic vulnerability was no longer the subject of discussion.
And again, as for Onslaught injuring him. It wasn't, nor could it have been phsyical force that did it. Juggernaut has proven many a time to be immune to a straight up physical assault of any level. And taking into account the fact that Onslaught was able to alter the laws of physics at his whim, it can be concluded that he very likely altered the physical laws that govern Juggernaut's powers in order to injure him, and later to pluck a non-existant gem from his chest, shrink him and place him inside it. Psionic energy is well known for being able affect physical things, telekensis is one good example of how mental energy can affect physical bodies. Franklin Richards and Proteus' reality warping powers are another excellent example of how psionics can even bend and break the very rules of the phsyical world. Onslaught being a psionic of perhaps the highest calibur would of and apparenty was capable of such feats.. though perhaps nothing so imaginative as the others could do. Though the pocket universe that everyone ended up in (who leapt into him during their sacrifices) could also suggest Onslaught could create other realities. And the fact that Onslaught sent Juggernaut into another dimension indicates a form reality manipulation.
With all that in mind, I do not agree at all that Onslaught used physical might to injure the physically invulnerable Juggernaut. But instead bended the physical laws around Juggernaut's powers and made him vulnerable to harm for the duration of their battle. And taking away someone's powers in order to hurt them is saying something about the nature of that power they had, such as, if Onslaught hadn't done such a thing, he couldn't of hurt him at all.
Afterall, Onslaught himself admits he couldn't hurt Juggernaut so long as he was connected to his magics. So by that admittance he would of had to negate those powers in order to accomplish the feat of injuring Juggernuat. So as I have said before, Juggernaut has only ever been injured when his powers were drained, removed, stolen or otherwise negated by some non-physical force.