Juggernaut or The Hulk?

"You may be "explaining" things. But I find your explanations are just as flawed as your grasp of what is meant by "unstoppable". I've already said that by "unstoppable" it's meant "physicaly unstoppable" as in no physical force or physical obstacle has ever stopped him, for that purpose we can say he is "phsyically unstoppable"."

*Bangs head against wall*.

Ok.....now I want you to follow this. Contrary to what you or anyone else believes, me and apparantly the dictionary of English language, believe that you cannot be unstoppable to certain things. YOU CANNOT BE PHYSICALLY UNSTOPPABLE. Are you not getting this? It's not just MY view of what it means, it's what it actually means man. Look, you are claiming that he is invulnerable to PHYSICAL OFFENCE. Fair enough, he is NOT unstoppable because he CAN BE STOPPED. Please.....please understand this. It's not hard at all.

What you are essentially trying to tell me, is that Juggernaut is a bit unstoppable. He's unstoppable by strength but not by other stuff. Do you realise now how stupid that sounds? You cannot be unstoppable half way. You are either unstoppable, meaning you cannot be stopped by ANYTHING. Or you are stoppable, meaning you can be stopped by SOMETHING. Not necessarily strength, but something. In this case psionics. End...of...story. Leave it.

"It seems as though everytime I clarify that I mean Juggernaut is "physically" something, you keep bringing up how he is suseptible to psionics. Once I began talking about his physical invulnerability, psionic vulnerability was no longer the subject of discussion."

YES! THAT'S what I'm trying to say. Jesus Christ! PHYSICALLY INVULNERABILITY is completely different to claiming that he is unstoppable. Unstoppability includes EVERYTHING, physical invulnerability just includes physical stuff. Am I getting through to you at all?

"And taking into account the fact that Onslaught was able to alter the laws of physics at his whim, it can be concluded that he very likely altered the physical laws that govern Juggernaut's powers in order to injure him"

Here^^^, right here you claim he can be injured. Before you claimed he couldn't. Stop trying to change the story around your will.

"With all that in mind, I do not agree at all that Onslaught used physical might to injure the physically invulnerable Juggernaut. But instead bended the physical laws around Juggernaut's powers and made him vulnerable to harm for the duration of their battle."

Oh my, so.....you are gonna completely dismiss something that could have possibly happened just because you don't agree with it? What if the writers came out and said "Yeah we created Juggernaut and we decided that Onslaught would beat him with physical force." What would you say? "But that couldn't happen"....? These are people that create and write about characters, you are in no place to create a non-existant piece of the story to aid you in this debate. Nobody knows what happened so we are left with our opinions. That's all it is, it's no "this couldn't have happened" coz it MIGHT have happened.

"So as I have said before, Juggernaut has only ever been injured when his powers were drained, removed, stolen or otherwise negated by some non-physical force."

So we've proven that OVERALL, he can be hurt. Great. You always claim with the War Hulk thing that it was down to two universes. It wasn't literally, as Wynndar correctly pointed out. His powers were not negated then. You really need to like, learn or something.

-AC

ok, maybe this will help. Juggernaut is unstoppable. with me so far?? so long as his magics are not negated he is unstoppable. that is like saying hulk has unlimited strength, unless you stopped his adrenal glands from working. he theoretically couldnt get any stronger. same thing with juggernaut. he could no longer oppose the force against him, if his power is negated.

since we are talking about dictionary terms, let me define negated.

ne·gate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-gt)
tr.v. ne·gat·ed, ne·gat·ing, ne·gates
To make ineffective or invalid; nullify.
To rule out; deny. See Synonyms at deny.

if juggernauts magic isnt working. he is stopped. but if they are working, you cannot stop him. hulk negated his energy...... hence it stopped him. i HOPE this clears up the missunderstanding. you are having trouble grasping this concept.

also, see juggernaut thor fights. maybe this will help you clear up your mistake (yes i did say your mistake). thor couldnt harm juggernaut (even with godforce) until he negated all of juggernauts magics (or most of them). juggernaut was suddenly vulnerable after that. but once his magics returned..... it was a different story. same thing with hulk and stopping juggernaut. it only happened because of the word -NEGATION-

"ok, maybe this will help. Juggernaut is unstoppable. with me so far?? so long as his magics are not negated he is unstoppable."

But his magics CAN AND HAVE been negated and probably will be again, so how in the Hell can he be unstoppable? He isn't. Anyway, let me close this thing up for ya real easy:

"if juggernauts magic isnt working. he is stopped. but if they are working, you cannot stop him. hulk negated his energy...... hence it stopped him. i HOPE this clears up the missunderstanding. you are having trouble grasping this concept."

For his magics to be stopped or negated, by theory they have to be working anyway. So how can you say "If his magics are working he cannot be stopped, if they aren't then he can" is ludicrous. He has his magics operating all the time, they have to be working to be made not to work. So you see......

"also, see juggernaut thor fights. maybe this will help you clear up your mistake (yes i did say your mistake). thor couldnt harm juggernaut (even with godforce) until he negated all of juggernauts magics"

His magics were working? I thought you said if they were he couldn't be stopped? But he was stopped coz his magics were negated. Oh but yes of course "Nah but he can be beat and stopped under certain circumstances." I...silly me, I keep forgetting. The one's that prove he isn't unstoppable are the ones that don't actually count. Pfft, sorry.

Over.

-AC

Oh and as for your trouble with War Hulk, lets clear some things up and bring some things to light here that came to my attention and Vic's attention while we were discussing Marvel on MSN.

You say "Oh War Hulk got his power amped up by Apocalypse. Apocalypse made him more powerful".

No he didn't. Apocalypse just brought OUT the true potential of Hulk.

You're going to deny that aren't you? Yes. Hence why I have proof.

Answer me this, if Apocalypse just took Hulk and gave him all that power, why did he choose Hulk? Why not any other random person? Coz he could give that power to anyone if he wanted. He chose Hulk coz he didn't have to do anything but FOCUS it. All that strength War Hulk has, belongs to him. It wasn't given. As Wynndar and Vic proved, he has that same strength of his own accord in TIH #446 I think.

So thank you, you've been a wonderful audience. I'll be here all week, be sure to tip your waitress and don't let the door hit you where the lord split you on the way out.

As Gorilla Monsoon once said:

"He dropped him like yesterday's newspaper."

-AC

wow alpha. now who are you going with J or H

*sigh*

You didn't even comprehend the defintion of "negate" when it was spelled out for you Alpha.

War negated the unstoppability factor with energy from a universe where that power doesn't work.

Thor negated the forcefield and invulnerability with a null field.

Onslaught negated the physical invulnerability by means of psionic reality manipulation.

Not a difficult concept. Now try to stay with me here. Try.. read whole post before trying to rip it apart and say it's contradicts itself.

PRIOR to those negations of his power, he was, phsyically (look at the word.. read it.. remember it, it's important) unstoppable.. and invulnerable.. on a physical (there it is again) level.

then

AFTER those negations of his powers, he was not, unstoppable, or invulnerable on a physical (again, there it is) level as before the negations.

Now.. here is me using a hypothetical situation involving the Hulk and the word "negation".

For arguements sake, if someone were able to shut off Hulk's adrenal gland, his "limitless strength" would be negated (in this sense, denied as per a definition of the word negate). In this situation you could NOT say that Hulk had unlimited potential strength because he would not be able to use any of it.

just as

If Juggernaut's powers were negated, he would not have the use of them during this negation.

So.. having ones powers negated (nullified, cancled, voided, removed, denied) does not mean that while ones powers are active and fully functional that they are any less powerful. Juggernaut at full power, while not being negated in some way.. is physically unstoppable, and physically invulnerable, and that's all anyone claimed he was to begin with. No one claimed powers gave him invulnerability beyond the physical. You assume, and then jump to conclusions based on situations where it wasn't in big bold letters "physically" invulnerable or "physically" unstoppable. It is not a mistake on our parts.. it's yours. For you are the one who draws this conclusion based on your assumption of our literal intended meanings.

It should not have to be spelled out for you like that for you to get it. But apparently it does, and even then it just doesn't sink in.

You say he's NOT unstoppable because a psionic attack could render him unconsious. And I say, no one ever said it couldn't. And no one ever said he was anything more than just "physically unstoppable". No one said he was TOTALLY unstoppable. JUST physically so.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
But his magics CAN AND HAVE been negated and probably will be again, so how in the Hell can he be unstoppable? He isn't. Anyway, let me close this thing up for ya real easy:

he can be stopped if you negate his magics.... but otherwise he is UNSTOPPABLE. it's like argueing with a 3 year old that knows everything. i dont get you .... honestly.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

For his magics to be stopped or negated, by theory they have to be working anyway. So how can you say "If his magics are working he cannot be stopped, if they aren't then he can" is ludicrous. He has his magics operating all the time, they have to be working to be made not to work. So you see......

you are one sick twisted confused person. they were being recieved. but they were not functioning against the energies that war hulk possesed. i'm done with you on this subject as you clearly cannot percieve the difference of what is being said.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

His magics were working? I thought you said if they were he couldn't be stopped? But he was stopped coz his magics were negated. Oh but yes of course "Nah but he can be beat and stopped under certain circumstances." I...silly me, I keep forgetting. The one's that prove he isn't unstoppable are the ones that don't actually count. Pfft, sorry.

if his magics are working he cannot be stopped. war negated them (juggernauts magic wasnt functioning agains hulks energies) so he was stopped. thor negated most of his energy, so he was suddenly vulnerable to physical attack. those magics are what make him unstoppable/invulnerable. if he doesnt have them (thor) or they arent functioning against the force that opposes them (hulk) then they are not working proplerly or at all. if you cant grasp this concept then i'm honestly done debating with you.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You say "Oh War Hulk got his power amped up by Apocalypse. Apocalypse made him more powerful".

No he didn't. Apocalypse just brought OUT the true potential of Hulk.

he he he, isnt that a bunch of bullshit......

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

You're going to deny that aren't you? Yes. Hence why I have proof.

lets hear the "actual" proof. not the bullshit stated below

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Answer me this, if Apocalypse just took Hulk and gave him all that power, why did he choose Hulk? Why not any other random person? Coz he could give that power to anyone if he wanted. He chose Hulk coz he didn't have to do anything but FOCUS it. All that strength War Hulk has, belongs to him. It wasn't given. As Wynndar and Vic proved, he has that same strength of his own accord in TIH #446 I think.

he chose hulk because he was looking for a weapon to battle the celestials. his tech picked up on hulk funneling the energies from the heroes reborn universe and the marvel universe. it is becomming quite apparent that you are not reading the issues. it was given to hulk. it was explained that the tech allowed him to harness both universes worth of energy. your arguements and attempts at debating are becomming weaker the more i learn about you and what you HAVNT read. he he he, this is fun.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

So thank you, you've been a wonderful audience. I'll be here all week, be sure to tip your waitress and don't let the door hit you where the lord split you on the way out.

so thank YOU. i had fun filling you in on everything that you have missed

ok why are you 2 arguing for.

Originally posted by Shadow_King
ok why are you 2 arguing for.

cause he doesnt understand ANYTHING.

why do you say that???

Originally posted by Shadow_King
why do you say that???

because he doesnt understand the terms Physical, or Negation, when they are plainly loud out before his eyes.

ok i am gonna read the posts that started this all.

ahh forget it too many posts.

lol, 44 pages is alot i'd skip the first 4, cause they are full of poor misguided people. i tried to read them, but my side split open from laughing at some of the hear-say information i was reading.

you should throw blob in the mix

why would we do that??

yea blob aint even in the same class as these 2.

"You didn't even comprehend the defintion of "negate" when it was spelled out for you Alpha.
War negated the unstoppability factor with energy from a universe where that power doesn't work.
Thor negated the forcefield and invulnerability with a null field.
Not a difficult concept. Now try to stay with me here. Try.. read whole post before trying to rip it apart and say it's contradicts itself."

Firstly, don't try to rip of JF who ripped of me with the replying technique. Secondly I comprehended the term "negate". I did and I agree to all of your above points. Never have I disagreed. BUT the point YOU seem to be missing is, all those points prove that he is not unstoppable because you cannot be unstoppable to one thing and not unstoppable to another, that's all I'm saying. It's not opinion, it's actual fact. You cannot be unstoppable to just one thing. You can be invulnerable to certain things, yes. You cannot be unstoppable to certain things. The term unstoppable is all inclusive and is only applicable if you cannot be stopped under any circumstance.

"Onslaught negated the physical invulnerability by means of psionic reality manipulation"

This however, is just your wishful thinking. It is not provable or to be fair, disproveable. So it's left up in the air.

"For arguements sake, if someone were able to shut off Hulk's adrenal gland, his "limitless strength" would be negated (in this sense, denied as per a definition of the word negate). In this situation you could NOT say that Hulk had unlimited potential strength because he would not be able to use any of it."

Oh look, it's someone who knows nothing of Hulk's powers or science. Hulk's adrenal gland just provides adrenaline that is activated by the brain. The brain sends signals to the adrenal gland to create adrenaline. So to shut off his adrenal gland you would have to shut off his brain which is impossible as he is immune to psionics. He has MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder) which means no psionic can control them all at the same time, which is what would be needed for him to lose the ability of unlimited strength. That is actual science for you, seeing as you brought science into it.

"Juggernaut at full power, while not being negated in some way.. is physically unstoppable, and physically invulnerable, and that's all anyone claimed he was to begin with."

No he's not PHYSICALLY UNSTOPPABLE when he isn't being negated. He may VERY well be PHYSICALLY INVULNERABLE when not negated, but not unstoppable because all it takes to stop him is negations. You are trying to tell me I don't understand yet all you ever do is sit there and prove me right. You actually cannot, regardless of what you think, be partially unstoppable. You are confusing unstoppable with invulnerable.

"No one said he was TOTALLY unstoppable. JUST physically so."

And the last horse finally crosses the track. You're almost there Vash. The point I'm making is no he's not totally unstoppable. He may be physically invulnerable until negated yes, but the negation is the stopping factor. So you should see now that physical INVULNERABILITY is what you are trying to claim he has, you have been confusing the terms unstoppability and invulnerability however.

"he can be stopped if you negate his magics.... but otherwise he is UNSTOPPABLE. it's like argueing with a 3 year old that knows everything. i dont get you .... honestly."

How in the blue shitting hell are you gonna sit there, tell me he can be stopped but is unstoppable and then have the gaul to front like I'm the stupid one? You can be stopped or you can't. It's that simple. There is no half way whether you want there to be or not.

"you are one sick twisted confused person. they were being recieved. but they were not functioning against the energies that war hulk possesed. i'm done with you on this subject as you clearly cannot percieve the difference of what is being said."

I was going by the info you gave me Mr.I own ever Juggernaut appearance ever. You said to me that if his magics are working he is unstoppable. You also said if his magics are negated and/or made to NOT FUNCTION, then he can be stopped. You said that in a previous post. So all I'm after really is, if his magics were made to not function against War Hulk, it must mean that....that....they were functioning, but they were ****ed up against War Hulk. So...therefore, with or without his magic, there are ways around it to make him vulnerable.

"if his magics are working he cannot be stopped. war negated them (juggernauts magic wasnt functioning agains hulks energies) so he was stopped."

...........Does anyone else see what I see here and have seen before? If his magics are working he cannot be stopped. You repeatedly say this. So if he is unstoppable (yes coz it's an all inclusive word, by intention) then not even negation would be able to effect him. Negation does what though? Yes it effects him. Stop replying that you don't understand. I don't believe you are dumb, I think it's blatant that you understand me. However you're pulling the old illegal immigrant interrogation trick. Speak perfectly well when it suits you but when it doesn't, "Me no speaka ingles."

"he he he, isnt that a bunch of bullshit......"

Awww there there. Let me pull you out of that Egyptian river. Don't get snappy. Just a little debate.

"it was given to hulk. it was explained that the tech allowed him to harness both universes worth of energy. your arguements and attempts at debating are becomming weaker the more i learn about you and what you HAVNT read. he he he, this is fun."

It's so so so funny how throughout this thread you ask for issue numbers, pics. I give you one that proves Hulk had War Hulk's strength of his own accord and....shock horror! It's bullshit to you. You are a hypocritcal, one-sided, faulty debater who completely and utterly hates the truth being shown to him. The only thing that has become apparant as this goes on is that you are clutching at more straws than an 8 armed man in a haystack.

"he chose hulk because he was looking for a weapon to battle the celestials. his tech picked up on hulk funneling the energies from the heroes reborn universe and the marvel universe."

Hulk just HAPPENED to be funnelling the power of two universes of two different continuities, on his own? Coz a while back you claimed that he did this thanks to Apocalypse. How could he have if that is how Apoc's tech picked him up? You see, what happened was, Apocalypse, like it or not, harnessed his raw power and did nothing but focus it.

I have the comic, Vic (who knows more about Hulk than I dare say anyone on this forum) has the comic, Wynndar has the comic, you have the comic. Well, you have a different version to us apparantly. Then in Hulk #446, the completely official and in-continuity comic that you claim is a crock of bullshit, happened to showcase that Hulk had War Hulk's strength all along.

So in closing this post I shall say that, while I anticipate ANOTHER post from you and Vash saying how I don't get it, I'll leave it to other people (who strangely get it perfectly well) to come in and read and post. Another tip, really, quit acting as if you are showing me up.

So I'm gonna take a moment of vanity that I damn well deserve:

The only unstoppable thing in this thread is me. I'm the Juggernaut here. I'm the Hulk here. To me, you and Vash are nothing but Bucky and Gwen Stacy in this debate.

So next time you wanna call an actual comic and real proof, crock of bullshit. Do it at a time you can back it up. You ask for proof, I give it. So accept it. Read the comic and then tell us that it's a crock of shit.

Shadow King,

They are arguing with me. I'm not arguing with them.

-AC