Actually, Juggernaut is Unstoppable, based on the context. It really doesnt matter if hes unstoppable at one point or another. Saying a firework will explode is always true, EXCEPT in the circumstances (i.e. context) that the catalyst malfunctions.
Let me straighten everyone out here;
Pro juggernauts are saying that he is unstoppable in the average context,
Con juggernauts are saying that if he can be stopped, that no longer qualifies him for unstoppability.
Since something is removing his mystical energies, he is no longer the 'unstoppable juggernaut' because the context of the event has changed. This therefore means he is NO LONGER unstoppable in t his context, but if his power is in tact, the context changes and he becomes unstoppable once again. No matter what the circumstances, if he is the 'unstoppable juggernaut' nothing will stop him. But if the context changes and he is no longer the 'unstoppable juggernaut' then he can be stopped.
Everyone get what im saying ?
I get what you're saying, but it's still incorrect. =)
No matter what the circumstances, if he is the 'unstoppable juggernaut' nothing will stop him.
You can't say that he is unstoppable only in one context. He either is, or he is not. If it is possible to negate his energy, and then summarily stop him...then it's possible to stop him. Period.
That was a great post Tron.
The point that EVERYONE is overlooking however is that all the physical stuff is about invulnerability not unstoppability. What people should be saying, if that is their argument, is:
Juggernaut is physically invulnerable. Yet he is not unstoppable. Because he is stoppable by SOME means. It doesn't matter if it's physical or not because you cannot be partially unstoppable. You CAN be partially invulnerable. For example, Juggernaut could be physically invulnerable, yet mentally vulnerable. This makes him stoppable.
"No matter what the circumstances, if he is the 'unstoppable juggernaut' nothing will stop him. But if the context changes and he is no longer the 'unstoppable juggernaut' then he can be stopped."
If nothing in the history of comics had stopped him, he could claim to be unstoppable. However, he has proven to be nigh invulnerable NOT unstoppable. He has been stopped. Being hurt and being stopped are two different things. If people are trying to weight the fact that he's had no harm dealt to him, thus making him unstoppable, they'd be wrong. That's just invulnerable. He cannot go from being unstoppable to stoppable and unstoppable again. He can go from being INVULNERABLE to VULNERABLE and back. But he cannot go from being unstoppable to stoppable and back. Coz.....if he was unstoppable, he wouldn't be able to BE stopped.
It's like saying, Superman is unkillable just because he comes back from the dead. He can be killed, hence why he came back from the dead. Staying there is a different matter though. Like Juggernaut's "unstoppability". He has been stopped through some means and it's fact he can be. Harmed physically? Maybe not. But as I've said countless times before, that is invulnerable, not unstoppable.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
This isn't unstoppability though JF. It's physical invulnerability. He may be physically invulnerable, I will say that from what I've seen it seems that way. Because the Onslaught thing is neither disproveable OR provable. Yet he isn't unstoppable because he can be stopped. However I will agree to disagree on the physical INVULNERABILITY side of things. That's all I'm saying. That he may have invulnerability but he does not have unstoppability It's confusing the terms. But now we are actually down to understanding each other. I'll continue.
i think you need to look at invulnerable, and unstoppable as separate powers. because they are separate powers. but we will agree to disagree about invulnerability. i agree with that. so thats left up to everybody else to decide.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriHe actually does though, in Hulk #446.[/B]
currently checking into this. i will have this issue in the next week or so.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"hulk = limitless strength that is clearly accepted. but lets say that a powerful sourceror put a spell on his adrenal glands to make them quit functioning. he no longer has unlimited strength."He no longer has ACCESS to that unlimited strength. It's still there in the sense that when the spell wears off, he will have it again.
exactly my point. thor negated his energy. so he no longer had access to his power of invulnerability. war hulk negated his mystical energy, so he no longer had Access to his unstoppability. it is the same concept, and its only a matter of time before it clicks. juggernauts magics were not functioning against that energy. hulks glands wouldnt be functioning to increase his strength. the same thing.....
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"juggernaut = unstoppable. but lets say you negate the magics (adrenal glands) that allow this to happen, he would only then be haulted. "I get what you're saying but like, the notion "unstoppable " is being contradicted by even saying that he can be stopped. You cannot be half way unstoppable but we've worked out that you mean he is just physically INVULNERABLE. By merely sectioning off Hulk's strength, you're not going against the notion that it's there, it's still there. He just cannot use it. Juggernaut being unstoppable then stoppable, proves he isn't.
no, i'm not confusing invulnerable with unstoppable. i'm well aware of the differences. it was different circumstances with hulk, and thor. i know that too. juggernaut cannot be haulted by pushing againt him with a physical force or object. how is that??? so from now on we should all refer to him as the juggernaut "who cant be haulted by a physical forces or objects". its longer than the unstoppable juggernaut, but well worth the extra effort to put forth just to show people how his power functions.
"you cannot hault his forward momentum without negation."
His momentum is the famous unstoppable factor, yet it can be stopped. He may be physically invulnerable, but unstoppable he is not.[/B][/QUOTE]
understood, so i just wont put the extra effort forth to explain it any longer.
but i still think if they were playing football, just main stream marvel, juggernaut would score a touchdown -every- time.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He isn't, that's the whole point.It's a slogan. He's call "The Unstoppable Juggernaut."
Iron-Man is called "The Invincible Iron-Man". But we know that isn't true.
-AC
and superman is the man of steel.... but thats not true either
now spider-man... "amazing"... yeah, that one actually does work, but MOST slogans are hyperboles...
"i think you need to look at invulnerable, and unstoppable as separate powers. "
Yeah that's what I've been saying. If anything he is invulneraable phsyically. Not unstoppable.
"juggernaut cannot be haulted by pushing againt him with a physical force or object. how is that???"
That's physical invulnerability. Invulnerable to physical force. If Psylocke kept pushing him she'd get nowhere. If she psionic-ed him, he'd be down. Physically invulnerable? Likely. Unstoppable? No.
"but i still think if they were playing football, just main stream marvel, juggernaut would score a touchdown -every- time."
Of course. I think Hulk would also. But then again they'd both be quarterbacks making sure no one got through.
-AC
Originally posted by JuggernautFan
ok put it this way...... if cyttorak himself was charging, you couldnt stop him period. because you cant cut him off from his power source. its the same thing with juggernaut, except you -can- cut him off from his power source. i think you both have primitive thinking and cant understand this concept.
Excuse me? I know exactly what YOU are saying, do you know what I am saying?
Juggernaut can be cut off from his power source, yes? Yes.
This means JUGGERNAUT, via means of cutting off his power- the power which makes him unstoppable, can be stopped. It matters not whether the magic per se, is unstoppable, pre-negation.
Look, the Juggernaut can be stopped, and the way he can be stopped is by cutting off, or negating his magic. Yes? Yes, good.
Nice and plain?
It's not the 'Unstoppable Juggernaut', it's the 'Juggernaut whose power is, when functional, unstoppable-by physical means- but not via other means, and it can also be cut off, rendering him stoppable by all means'.
That wouldn't be very catchy though would it?
Demonstrate that you can receive and perceive, before you attempt to construct.
As for primitive thinking and lack of understanding: what the Hell? You are battling logic with opinion, facts with fanboyism. You have continually said he is unstoppable but for...he is invulnerable but his eyes aren't. What you 'think' isn't really that valuable.
In addition:
'Actually, Juggernaut is Unstoppable, based on the context. It really doesnt matter if hes unstoppable at one point or another. Saying a firework will explode is always true, EXCEPT in the circumstances (i.e. context) that the catalyst malfunctions. '
This is not true at all. To say that a firework will explode is only always true if you rely on semantics. It is only true to say a firework can explode.
You can be contextually unstoppable, but that's a cheap title. I could be unstoppable with anyone under 10 stone attempting to prevent my forward motion. Would I claim I am unstoppable, in context? No, because that's bullshit.
Unstoppable counts for nothing unless it is- as it can only be- unqualified.
'exactly my point. thor negated his energy. so he no longer had access to his power of invulnerability. war hulk negated his mystical energy, so he no longer had Access to his unstoppability. it is the same concept, and its only a matter of time before it clicks. juggernauts magics were not functioning against that energy. hulks glands wouldnt be functioning to increase his strength. the same thing.....'
No, it is not the same. It is not the same at all.
Does Hulk not having ACCESS to unlimited strength, negate that strength's being UNLIMITED? No.
Does Juggernaut's- yes, JUGGERNAUT'S- being able to be separated from his unstoppability, make him no longer unstoppable? Yes. COMPLETELY different premises. One is not dependent on perpetuation.
Originally posted by Shadow_King
wha if someone found cyttorak could'nt they just take juggernauts powers and become juggernaut
I don't think so, maybe if Cyttorak chooses, overwise they may be in a world of hurt, lol. Then again, if it were that easy, then it would be
"Dr. Strange: The UNSTOPPABLE Sorcerer Supreme." Now that would be crazy. 💃
Originally posted by Shadow_King
what about psychic cant they stop them.
That's one of his weaknesses, only thing is you have to work for it. He wears a psychic-prove helmet (see, it does more than just look silly like most folks think, lol). Now if you get that helmet off, and you have a telepath on your team, then u have him easy. But as I said, it takes work, and Juggy won't make easy for ya.