Originally posted by janus77
No he doesn't. Even going "WBH" is perfectly controlled now.
There were, in the past, incarnations of Hulk that could not handle too much rage, turning back into Banner. This was a "failsafe" that Banner had placed, to prevent uncontrolled destruction, whilst enraged.This has not been the case for over a decade now.
Now a days going WB is an apparently controlled of Banner/Hulk. In the past Banner always kept Hulk on a leash and this is why He did not achieved critical mass with Banner. When there is "no Banner" Hulk is able to become stronger, because there is "no Banner" or "less Banner" to hold the leash. This is Banner/Hulk relation between them is even used in cartoons, the "less banner" or the "lack of banner" makes Hulk stronger.
Pak changed this by saying that Banner embraced the Hulk and this is why he is capable to reach critical mass and handle it, because Banner is there to balance the equation. In previous occasions the "lack of Banner" or the "less Banner" there was it has been bad for the hulk, because even though, He was able to reach the upper limits of his strength before going critical mass, the lack of banner caused his body to die, and whenever He was capable to reach critical mass, the lack of Banner did not allowed him to control his power level at critical mass and also cause his body to die.
Originally posted by janus77
No, that was due to the fact that Banner and Hulk were spread across two different universes. Bannerless Hulk was leaking gamma equivalent to a nuclear bomb, throughout 616 MU, while Banner-Hulk was trapped inside Franklin's Pocket Universe.That was the Hulk Surfer tried to convert back to Banner, iirc and then realised that there was no Banner to return him to.
The important fact is that this "limit" was a special one-off, nothing inherent in the Hulk, but a result of unique circumstances. Thus, irrelevant.
No , that limit has always been there, Nutrient Bath Hulk is another example of how the separation of Hulk and Banner works, Separating Hulk and Banner has never been good. And the less banner there is the more rampaging Hulk becomes. Banner is often portrayed as the key for Hulk's power level.
Originally posted by janus77
Not necessarily so, Savage Hulk is less overtly controlled by Banner than Green Scar, yet Savage Hulk rarely amped as fast as Green Scar and never amped to "WBH" levels.IIRC, Mindless Hulk, the one used against Onslaught, was Professor Hulk at base. This is the Hulk with the failsafe that prevents him getting too angry, so the switching off of Banner was necessary to override that.
This doesn't have any bearing on Green Scar, since he is Banner & Hulk in consonance.
Fixit is also an instance of non-Banner controlled Hulk that definitely is not stronger or cannot quickly reach the levels that Professor Hulk operated at.
In general though, Banner if not in control of the conscious mind of Hulk, will attempt to restrain and 'guide' Hulk, as Cho and WWH states.
Savage Hulk, still has Banner to control, Savage Hulk is the representation of Banner vocalizing his anger at his dad killing his mom, and even though He throws his fits, Banner is still in there to get the Hulk in check, and if he never amped to WB mode is because Banner did not allowed it
The world breaker is Banner embracing the Hulk persona and finally creating a ying/yang type of balance
Mr. Fix i is Banner in his teen age days
Banner is crazy or was crazy and this is why he has created so many personas to represent all his traumas on his life, and this is a constant in his comics.
Originally posted by janus77
Not really, as mentioned above, there are several Hulks with their own set limits and amping levels, but all of them hold back (so long as Banner is present) and none of them intentionally endanger innocents.WWH showed Hulk fighting everyone from Cyclops to ZomStrange, yet not one of them died. If he only held back once he was at "critical mass", you would imagine that Cyclops would have died from that grip Hulk had around his skull, that SkrullBolt, IM, Strange and dozens of others too would have been killed by the punches and grips of this hugely amped up Hulk.
Yet none of them was injured severely, nevermind killed. And that is what it means for Hulk to pull his punches.
What I meant is that WBH holds back and yes I agree that Banner makes his other Hulk personas hold back as well, but it wasn't until Banner embraced the Hulk that He was capable of sustain the power level on critical mass, and the only times when he was capable of doing this in the past was when there was no Banner.
But now that Banner allows it, Hulk can reach critical mass, with out any adversary effects to the Hulk.
Originally posted by janus77
Can't really follow much of that but, you seem to be under the mistaken belief that "WWH" is actually a Hulk in comics. It's nothing of the sort, but simply a KMC convention designed by mods to limit Hulk in the interest of handicapped threads against vastly inferior opponents. Sort of like shoving a kryptonite chunk down Superman's throat and then having him face off against some GL or other... it makes for "sport".Hulk in the comics of the Planet Hulk arc, the WWH arc and those proceeding from there on, is Green Scar. He is "World Breaker", just holding back.
He never unleashes because he doesn't want to kill anyone nor obliterate the planet.
There is no such thing as "another level", that he somehow has to work up to, that level of power is _always_there_.
I know is the "same Hulk" but that "same Hulk" depends on Banner or lack of Banner, what ever Hulk comes out basically depends on Banner state of mind or lack of it.
And I am very much enjoying talking about this, If I take longer than expected is because, now I am very busy at work, I have been only briefly reading for the past days, but I will try to answer as time allows it.
Originally posted by carver9
In the beginning...yes, Juggernaut made Hulk take a step back...not denying that. After that, it was a standstill as shown in the scan AFTER the scan you presented.
Is obvious that by the scan presented Juggernaut pushed Hulk back, this could have been a momentarily stop or a permanent stop, We can only guess if the Hulk will be able to stop the push forever or only momentarily.
What is sure is that Jugs kept pushing and Hulk took advantage of two things, one Cain's distraction and two his pushing forward.
Also it will be good to know what is the mods ruling on how Juggernaut's power work.
Because one of the scans is very old and that might have already been retcon, with a more modern version of it. just curious to know what is the mod ruling on Juggernaut's power?
Originally posted by Galan007
Concerning the WAR/Juggernaut battle...and...
Those excerpt were taken from the "Green Mail" editorial responses at the end of IH #461. The big wigs at Marvel were very particular about this: WAR's strength was amplified, therefore he and Juggy's battle wasn't necessarily indicative of how a battle between them would go if Hulk were at his normal levels.
I'm sure people will contest the above. Just throwing that out there, is all... Don't shoot the messenger.
This goes against your post.
Stated on panel that Hulk power was the source. The only thing the tech did was help Hulk harness the power.
Its also stated in this same scan that Hulk power > Celestials. 🙂
Originally posted by carver9
This goes against your post.Stated on panel that Hulk power was the source. The only thing the tech did was help Hulk harness the power.
Its also stated in this same scan that Hulk power > Celestials. 🙂
And it's pretty much why those who like to pretend the Celestial Tech amped him, are so woefully wrong.
Hulk is the power source, the tech was just a harness.
Also, not the first time Hulk has been said to be in the true big leagues.
Anyway, there was no reasonable argument against Hulk simply overpowering Juggernaut's charm. He's done it on two occasions now. Once when he wasn't amping fast (War) and once when he could amp really fast (WWH).
Originally posted by carver9
This goes against your post.Stated on panel that Hulk power was the source. The only thing the tech did was help Hulk harness the power.
Its also stated in this same scan that Hulk power > Celestials. 🙂
I don't see it.
and dont take me wrong, i believe hulk going critical mass was what allowed him to do what he did.
but how does this scan proves the claim? it says the celestials are comming and that hulk's energies will be key in the upcomming conflict, but where it exactly says is hulks power? honest question.
Read the scan RAO...
It states..."his tech is taken from the Celestials themselves and the ENERGY HULK GENERATES WILL BE INSTRUMENTAL IN THE COMING".
Here is the important part my friend.."that energy must be mine to control (HULKS ENERGY) for it (HULKS ENERGY) may give me power over the Celestials (not one Celestial and he is obviously pointing out what Hulk energy will do) themselves.
Stop with the lowballing. The Hulk lowballing. If you need further assistance with the scan, just put Superman name in place of Hulk. You'll get it then. 🙂
Originally posted by carver9
Read the scan RAO...It states..."his tech is taken from the Celestials themselves and the ENERGY HULK GENERATES WILL BE INSTRUMENTAL IN THE COMING".
Here is the important part my friend.."that energy must be mine to control (HULKS ENERGY) for it (HULKS ENERGY) may give me power over the Celestials (not one Celestial and he is obviously pointing out what Hulk energy will do) themselves.
Stop with the lowballing. The Hulk lowballing. If you need further assistance with the scan, just put Superman name in place of Hulk. You'll get it then. 🙂
way to go buddy
Originally posted by -Pr-
The Celestial tech, even if you don't think it amped Hulk, can't be proven not to amp Hulk. So yeah.Drop it and move on.
👆 so cleverly worded Carver missed it. i agree PR
There is _no_ proof for the speculation (lowballing) that Hulk was amped by the Celestial Tech. Apocalypse explains what it does to harness Hulk's energies.
There is however _proof_ that Apocalypse's readings of Hulk's energies are enough for him to believe Hulk's energies possibly sufficient to counter The Celestials. Plural.
So, unless you have any _evidence_ to support the, so far baseless, assumption that Hulk, as War, was having his strength amped by the Celestial Tech, when he stopped Juggernaut, it would seem to me that such a line of "reasoning" is nothing but lowballing.
Where did I said it was the celestial tech?
I said I believe is hulks power going critical.
But I won't use that scan to "prove" is hulks power because is not clear.
Just as I won't affirm that superman can read minds becauseis not clear.
So where did I state affirm or said that it was the celestial tech?
Originally posted by Odekahn
You're lucky Pr stepped in or I would have a field day picking that scan apart 👆Also, Juggernaut wins via scrambling Hulk's brain and slowing his healing factor.
So you believe Juggernaut can overpower Hulk while proceeding to punch him in the head? Would you like to compare strength fts?