Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Oh yeah, i can see jugs just sitting there thinking "i will move my arms from side to side, searching requires no foward motion, so long as i keep moving my arms like so, i will eventually find him" Although taht does seem to be on his level of intellegence, i seriuosly doubt it was so.

Come on now, he's still a simple human. He's not gonna just say, "Hey, I'm unstoppable, so I'll just walk through the rubble til I feel something squishy." Although it would've been funny, that wasn't the case. He was simply digging through shit, I don't see how you can analyze something like that, I'm sure the writer wasn't.

And, aparantly Smart Hulk doesn't matter that much either. Since after all, he did beat down by a red-headed construction worker who was close to his size, and who he just couldn't figure out that he was in his league while he got his ass kicked.

SMART HULK DOESN'T MATTER!!!!! BARVARDISH!!!

Well, BAVARDISH right back at ya!! Whatever the hell that means, lol.

You know barvardish, poppycock, balderdash.

Originally posted by EgoPrime
Havoc: Stay on Topic.

Mohammed Ali and Bruce Lee never won their fights on intellect, you dolt.

They won because both of them had incredible speed, endurance, and strength. How smart they were had nothing to do with how fast they were punching. That comparison was just stupid.

Honestly, Bruce-Banner Hulk shuffling around the Hulk like a boxer or bouncing around Jeet-Kune-Do style isn't going to help him at all with the Juggernaut. Between Juggernaut and the Hulk, whoever is smarter doesn't matter.

Bruce Banner was never a martial arts/boxing champion either. So your point is shot.

who ever said all they did was "punch fast", bruce lee's power was in striking subtle, MIND over Matter, as was mohhamed ali's, stinging like a bee would mean for a sufficient punch of equal strength to leave your target's radius as fast as you entered it, if that doesnt involve intellect i dont know what does

theres no need to call me a dolt and get all offensive

as for juggy going through the rubble, i dont even think that should be the conversation, its so un-important, as for who would win between the original hulk and original juggernaut, i'd have to say juggernaut for now....and again (i know i've said this a hundred times) hulk would still be free and fighting his battles while juggernaut would end up stuck somewhere yet again

Originally posted by Havoc470
as for juggy going through the rubble, i dont even think that should be the conversation, its so un-important, as for who would win between the original hulk and original juggernaut, i'd have to say juggernaut for now....and again (i know i've said this a hundred times) hulk would still be free and fighting his battles while juggernaut would end up stuck somewhere yet again

My point exactly.

thank you, i hope this stupid rubble argument can be eradicated already

Originally posted by JuggernautFan
yes it is disqualified. juggernaut cannot be hurt by physical means which is what we were talking about. the sword has mystical properties about it which makes it able to penetrate...... the juggernaut.

if you are refering to when thor punched him..... and he was sent flying backwards........ i think you should re-read it 😉

thor was under rubble to which juggernaut was digging through. the "unstoppable" nature of his power applies to his whole body (i know i have said that before) and only takes effect if he is in motion. when you are digging through the trash are you in motion??? as for namor i dont even wanna discuss that.

i agree it was a cheap ending..... but hulk has already proven that even when -extremely- enraged he cant beat juggernaut down............. NEXT.

It still isn't disqualified. The sword may be mystical, but my point is that HE CAN BE INJURED. I never specified that any typical physical force can harm him, just that he can be harmed. You're the one, or someone, who limited my point, not me. As for Thor, I'm not talking about the punch from the rubble, I'm talking about the godforce blast that pushed him back. The rubble punch is still impressive though, because it showed that he can toss Jugs around. You and I are obviously reading things differently, but the fact is the writers themselvess made it clear Hulk could hurt Juggernaut. Putting him down is beating him down. Juggernaut gets up yes, but that doesn't mean he's winning. There are plenty of people who can get their ass handed to them but keep on getting up. Doesn't mean you're the better fighter, just means you're more stubborn.

Originally posted by EgoPrime
Havoc: Stay on Topic.

Mohammed Ali and Bruce Lee never won their fights on intellect, you dolt.

They won because both of them had incredible speed, endurance, and strength. How smart they were had nothing to do with how fast they were punching. That comparison was just stupid.

Honestly, Bruce-Banner Hulk shuffling around the Hulk like a boxer or bouncing around Jeet-Kune-Do style isn't going to help him at all with the Juggernaut. Between Juggernaut and the Hulk, whoever is smarter doesn't matter.

Bruce Banner was never a martial arts/boxing champion either. So your point is shot.

Get over the 'stay on topic' thing, that's Paola's job to keep us in line. Do not make it unnecessary for her to make an appearance.

As for Bruce Lee, you don't know much about Bruce Lee. His speed was crucial to his art, but his intelligence was just as crucial. Knowing how to approach a fight, knowing how to size up an opponent, and more importantly, having the discipline over oneself are all tantamount to intelligent fighting. Lee was a brilliant fighter, not a slugger. When you understand certain aspects of martial arts, you realize that a person's mind is as important as a person's body during a fight. If you've studied Lee or martial arts, you would understand this. Thus it's not a stupid comparison because you really know nothing about Bruce Lee. Mohammed Ali is a different story because his style of boxing was not necessarily a fundamental art. He lost several times anyway.

Originally posted by Havoc470
thank you, i hope this stupid rubble argument can be eradicated already

You know it won't. Somebody will bump it with "I don't see how anybody can argue. When Hulk gets Juggernaut's helmet off he will smash his vulnerable head!"

Originally posted by wrathofachilles
It still isn't disqualified. The sword may be mystical, but my point is that HE CAN BE INJURED.

yes he can. but not by physical force. nobody has denied that he can be hurt by psionics or magics.

Originally posted by wrathofachilles

I never specified that any typical physical force can harm him, just that he can be harmed.

but it was specified what we were talking about somewhere on the 60 + pages on this thread.

Originally posted by wrathofachilles

You're the one, or someone, who limited my point, not me. As for Thor, I'm not talking about the punch from the rubble, I'm talking about the godforce blast that pushed him back.

what about it?

Originally posted by wrathofachilles

The rubble punch is still impressive though, because it showed that he can toss Jugs around.

so....... colossus has knocked juggernaut down. but thats where the problem sets in. they confuse the actual effectiveness of thier attack with the cosmetics of it. which in turn leads to thier eventual unconsciousness.

Originally posted by wrathofachilles

You and I are obviously reading things differently,

obviously.......

Originally posted by wrathofachilles

but the fact is the writers themselvess made it clear Hulk could hurt Juggernaut.

actually its just the opposite. the writer of 404 which is the incident you are talking about. made it very clear that hulk couldnt hurt juggernaut -physically-.

Originally posted by wrathofachilles

Putting him down is beating him down.

you mean like when juggernaut told hulk his attacks were getting weaker (in thier first appearance together) as his were getting STRONGER, as he kicked hulk to the GROUND. or in 402 when he beat hulk to a pulp. by your logic, juggernaut won 2 fights cause hulk was consistantly getting up.

Originally posted by wrathofachilles

Juggernaut gets up yes, but that doesn't mean he's winning.

nobody said he was winning when he gets up. but hulk isnt winning either when he wakes up/gets up.

Originally posted by wrathofachilles

There are plenty of people who can get their ass handed to them but keep on getting up. Doesn't mean you're the better fighter, just means you're more stubborn.

this is kind of irrelavant considering juggernaut dishs out just as much if not more punishment to hulk than he takes. but there is a significant difference. juggernaut cannot be hurt by hulk 🙂

Originally posted by wrathofachilles
Get over the 'stay on topic' thing, that's Paola's job to keep us in line. Do not make it unnecessary for her to make an appearance.

As for Bruce Lee, you don't know much about Bruce Lee. His speed was crucial to his art, but his intelligence was just as crucial. Knowing how to approach a fight, knowing how to size up an opponent, and more importantly, having the discipline over oneself are all tantamount to intelligent fighting. Lee was a brilliant fighter, not a slugger. When you understand certain aspects of martial arts, you realize that a person's mind is as important as a person's body during a fight. If you've studied Lee or martial arts, you would understand this. Thus it's not a stupid comparison because you really know nothing about Bruce Lee. Mohammed Ali is a different story because his style of boxing was not necessarily a fundamental art. He lost several times anyway.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
You know it won't. Somebody will bump it with "I don't see how anybody can argue. When Hulk gets Juggernaut's helmet off he will smash his vulnerable head!"

Originally posted by JuggernautFan
yes he can. but not by physical force. nobody has denied that he can be hurt by psionics or magics.

He can be hurt. That's my point.

but it was specified what we were talking about somewhere on the 60 + pages on this thread.

I ain't reading 60+ pages, lol. Again, I meant that he could be injured.

so....... colossus has knocked juggernaut down. but thats where the problem sets in. they confuse the actual effectiveness of thier attack with the cosmetics of it. which in turn leads to thier eventual unconsciousness.

Colossus is not Hulk. Besides which, Juggernaut doesn't need to be knocked unconscious to be beaten.

actually its just the opposite. the writer of 404 which is the incident you are talking about. made it very clear that hulk couldnt hurt juggernaut -physically-.

No, he said Hulk couldn't hurt Juggernaut, but that's not how he depicted it in the issue. Thus he is basically admitting that he is not an effective writer by depicting Juggernaut as being hurt and then saying to fans who ***** to him about it 'oh don't worry, he didn't hurt him.' Either that or he's just catering to the fanboys.

you mean like when juggernaut told hulk his attacks were getting weaker (in thier first appearance together) as his were getting STRONGER, as he kicked hulk to the GROUND. or in 402 when he beat hulk to a pulp. by your logic, juggernaut won 2 fights cause hulk was consistantly getting up.

I never said Juggernaut didn't win some of the fights. But if you think Hulk getting stronger means his attacks are getting weaker, you're out of your mind. Hulk obviously wasn't getting angrier, it's as simple as that. Juggernaut does not get stronger, he can say whatever he likes. Like the 'nothing can stop me' crap. Hulk gets stronger, period. Juggernaut does not block that ability or something.

nobody said he was winning when he gets up. but hulk isnt winning either when he wakes up/gets up.

Yes I know. My point is that Hulk has beaten Juggernaut before. That doesn't mean Juggernaut hasn't either. I mean that you don't have to be beaten into unconsciousness or bruised and bloodied to lose a fight.

this is kind of irrelavant considering juggernaut dishs out just as much if not more punishment to hulk than he takes. but there is a significant difference. juggernaut cannot be hurt by hulk 🙂

Can and was 🙂

Peruse the quoted material for my responses, you know the deal.

Originally posted by Havoc470
again, wrath knows what he's saying

Excellent point Havoc!

Hulk is shit loads stronger (there is NO limit to his strengh, or at least that's what Marvel proclaims). Jugs is more durable.

This business about Jugs being unstoppable is a bit silly. Even spiderman 'stopped' Jugs by embedding him in cement (okay...SLOOOOWED him down, whatever).

In the end, I think they portray hulk as mortal, and Jugs as immortal, so the point is moot - Jugs wins because he can't die.

You wanna know who'll cause Jugs grief to no ends (without his helmet)? Any telepath or even Ghost Rider. Yeah, Ghost Rider...with his pennance stare and soul-burning fire...(his aren't physical attacks). I kinda like that...Jugs meets his match by these 'lesser' characters of the MU.

Of course, we know Jugs can be hurt and stopped...Nimrod more or less stopped him, and Onslaught did it big time (er...but if we want to forget Onslaught ever happened, I have no problem with dat). Now to confuse matters more, it was a fully enraged hulk that riped apart onslaught's physical form...considerin what Onslaught did to Jugs, I think hulk at some level CAN beat Jugs.

Everyone dies. The Juggernaut force cannot die *well Living Tribunal could destroy it* but Cain Marko can die.

Well, anything lower that Cyttatork (or whatever the heck it's called) in the marvel power chain can't kill Cain while he's in posession of the Juggernaut's power. Or so we're lead to think...

Galactus, for example, could simply eat him...perhaps Charles could even make Cain comatose...which is pretty much being dead so long as measures can be taken to ensure Jugs stays that way.

Originally posted by picoico
Hulk is shit loads stronger (there is NO limit to his strengh, or at least that's what Marvel proclaims). Jugs is more durable.

so why cant hulk seem to overpower him....... odd dont you think?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by picoico
[B]This business about Jugs being unstoppable is a bit silly. Even spiderman 'stopped' Jugs by embedding him in cement (okay...SLOOOOWED him down, whatever).

so its silly for a comic book character to be "unstoppable" but there is no questioning unlimited strength???

Originally posted by picoico

In the end, I think they portray hulk as mortal, and Jugs as immortal, so the point is moot - Jugs wins because he can't die.

the end?

Originally posted by picoico
You wanna know who'll cause Jugs grief to no ends (without his helmet)? Any telepath or even Ghost Rider. Yeah, Ghost Rider...with his pennance stare and soul-burning fire...(his aren't physical attacks). I kinda like that...Jugs meets his match by these 'lesser' characters of the MU.

its not that they are a "lesser" character. its about attributes. now ghost rider could theoretically give juggernaut problems. it depends on the nature of his pennance (spelling) stare. if its telepathic or mental or psionic (all the same thing) it will have no effect as long as his helmet is on. however if its magical, it could very wall cause juggernaut a WHOLE lot of trouble.

Originally posted by picoico

Of course, we know Jugs can be hurt and stopped...Nimrod more or less stopped him, and Onslaught did it big time

yes, but again, its about attributes. nimrod did devise a way to neutralize juggernaut. onslaught is junk.

Originally posted by picoico
(er...but if we want to forget Onslaught ever happened, I have no problem with dat).

i'm glad there are others out there who didnt like onslaught. good concept, bad writing IMO.

Originally posted by picoico
Now to confuse matters more, it was a fully enraged hulk that riped apart onslaught's physical form...considerin what Onslaught did to Jugs, I think hulk at some level CAN beat Jugs.

the 2 attacks are different though. onslaught could have made juggernaut feel/see/do anything he wanted him to at that point. cause he was without a helmet. onslaught just happens to be a psion. what a coincidence........

Originally posted by picoico
perhaps Charles could even make Cain comatose...which is pretty much being dead so long as measures can be taken to ensure Jugs stays that way.

this already happened.