Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Started by Tron486 pages

My goodness, your fanboyism is unfathomable, lol. Really now, Stan Lee invented Hulk, that's true, but what's your point? Is he writing Hulk now? No. Has he written him in a couple of decades? No. He was Marvel's strongest AT HIS TIME. Doesn't mean it stays that way, there are other writers out there that do other things, and other characters created that are stronger than Hulk at his base level. Whine and complain about it all you want, but it's the truth, whether your fanboyism will let you see it or not. And, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but he has been beaten by strength during Stan Lee's time. Remember his firstt meeting with Abomination? When Abomination was twice as strong as Hulk (yes, TWICE as strong)? Abomination nearly beat him to death, with his strength alone. Namor, who got Hulk into the water, owned him also. If I'm wrong about Stan Lee, then my apologies, but those events have happened though. And, Juggernaut already gave him more than enough trouble in their first fight, but for some reason you don't want to acknowledge that. And won't mention how Juggernaut beat him like a redheaded stepchild in plain streetclothes, that issue speaks for itself. And also, about his potential for limitless strength; key word is POTENTIAL. He has the potential for it, doesn't mean he has limitless strength itself. He has yet to completely go past any limit any may think he has. And, if he did actually have overall limitless strength as you say, then he should be unbeatable, and he should never have been beaten the way he has at times, by strength alone. But, he has. Potential, yes, but he's also been shown to have limits to his rage, and strength with it. And, about War, you ask how can someone with unlimited strength be made stronger? Well, simple; seeign as how it's only potential, he still has his base strength, sowhat do you do? You amp up his base strength, seems about right to me. Makes perfect sense to me, don't know why it doesn't to you. I'm glad you acknowledged that his base strength was brought up though, and that's exactly the point we've been making for months. Anyways, to another subject. I'm also glad you acknowledged my comment about Hulk being the strongest. Now, true, there are plenty of ways other than strength to beat Hulk. So, if he's gonna automatically be stronger than everyone in Marvel, then why have him battle any superstrong being in the Marvel Universe, if it's just gonna show him winning? Like I said, it's not very exciting, and a fight that would be pointless to read, cause we've know the result before we opened the book. If there's not a chance he'll lose, then lets just make him omnipotent and be done with it. He's had foes that have given him hell when matching muscle, and I have no problem seeing that, makes for an exciting comic. And it doesn't to know there are those out there that would make Hulk actually work for a win. And, on a large scale, we can say Hulk the most physically powerful being on Earth, but who's to say he's the strongest in the universe itself? Thanos, Champion, and others can teach Hulk a thing or two. Now, Hulk has the potential to surpase both, but chances are he'll be put down before that ever happened. Now, you don't need to change Hulk's powers for hm to have any kind of physical match, that's just silly, you can have plenty of opponents able to match him in muscle and still be a good comic. And two bit fighters? Thing, although he can only match Hulk for so long, is no two bit fighter. Abomination, more or less the anti-Hulk, is no two bit fighter. Thor sure as hell ain't no two bit fighter. Juggernaut, although some people might think so, is no two bit fighter. Although he's not the most interesting character, he's more than proved himself against plenty of foes, and has shown that he could be more than a threat to almost anyone on Earth. And you say Hulk should not be matched by muscle, well I could easily say Juggernaut's forward movement should not be halted, but that would go into a totally different arguement. But do you see my point? I sure hope so. If not, then I'll try to explain later. To conclude, try to open your eyes. Either character has a chance (as I've said, many, many times) because of both of their respective powers alone, it just depends on who's lucky day it is, and the location.

And 5KnuckleShuffle: Juggernaut Gene? Tell me you're not serious.

EVERYBODY READ. this is very interesting and i just learned of it myself. this for everybody especially *wyndarr* or however you spell his name. i believe it was you and somebody else *never* maybe. that said hulks strength wasnt increased in 457 against the juggernaut. that he was producing the same results in hulk 450 (which happens to be the issue that started the whole story arch that leads up to issue 457)

http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing/Juggy_vote2.txt

in case you dont know thats by the writers of hulk. you know, the ones in the back of the magazine that answer all (actually not all) of the letters that the fans mail in. hope you all enjoy this.

I dont know where you got your ability chart if you go to marvel.com there ability charts for strength and durability are the same. Yet juggernauts upper strength has never been fully tested and proven at a certain level. So to say that hulk has more strength that cant be proven.

Hulk's strength is limitless. Juggs is not. Lets just reflect on that for a little while.

I see someone's read nothing in here. Reflect on the fact that Hulk with his "limitless" strength has had so much trouble with Juggernaut whenever they've met.

Juggernaut wins.

He can't be hurt, tired, or stopped.

Hulk can be hurt and can get tired. What good is the potential for unlimited strength if Hulk is too tired, too hurt, or unconscious to utilize it or even reach that potential? All potential is is something that a person hasn't accomplished yet. It doesn't necessarily mean it can be reached.

Yes, Hulk has a healing factor, but it could take a while to heal especially from damage thats inflicted by Juggernaut.

Nothing can stop the Juggernaut. Nothing.

good god i hate going round in circles
right tron everyone im gonna agree with u here, hulk has POTENTIAL for limitless strength, war had a higher base rate of strength ( SOMETING IVE SAID TIME AFTER TIME), juggie is indestructable, hulk has been beaten by brute force ( abom, namour IN water even though her he is still only in 100 tonne department) ive read the bit at the back of the comic and yes suggeste hulk had a higher base rate, well if u read my posts ull see ive said this dfor ages. right i agree here with these points s stop repeating them, howvere they dont make juggie a winner.
*hulk has THE POTENTIAL for unlimited strength thats accessed by anger, why would he not get very angry???? he gets madded enough to smash onslaught yet has a soft spot for juggie????? hulks base rate is about 100 tonnes for hulk juggie would start out who knows 5 times stronger, well hulk would be prety pissed at that, see my point
* as hulk gets angrier he heals quicker, to the point any blows from juggie would heal, he is nigh indestructable, has been at ground zero for an atomic bomb explosion , smashed through an asteroid, twice as big as earth, re entered earth etc face it whats juggie got thats gonna hurt savage ( not pro hulk)
*the chart was on your link
*why should the hulk lose on strength ever??? why cant he get at his potential he only has to get angrier something that the hulk can do very well.
* what happened to juggie when hulk ( as war) had celestial energy???????
*war when created ( ill state again) was chosen by apoc ( hulk) as being
the one hero with enoughpotential to be a member of the 4 horsemen, not juggie, juggie was used as a pawn to test wars powers, who had a higher base rate of strength ( we know not what) yet as hulk is limitless in strength POTENTIAL who says a savage hulk couldnt get there?, ok celestial power stopped juggie when it was with a hero strong enough to overpower juggie on an equal footing, yes i can now slate how silly i think the ''nothing is gonna stop juggie'' yup, till someone else has some celestial power is the answer.
*it is poor writing and eratic having hulk beaten by ur namours and aboms etc on one hand physically, yet lifting mountains, smashing onslaught, smashing asteroids etc on the other, all hulk has to do to tap into his infinite unlimited, no maximum potential is get angry, and er cant he do that well as a charcter anyway, so why should writers dissregard this. it happens all the time in comics hence these threads, also people pissed at how onslought pissed on your fave juggie, or why thors god force didnt do more to this guy or that. i dont want to see hulk beaten physiacally is my point tron, it stinks a lot of the time of inconsistencies, i want to see him lose in more imaginative ways than be told he got beat by juggie cos he couldnt reach the right level of strength, yet 2 comics down the line watch him shatter a mountain within mins of becoming the hulk. hulk is the strongest as is limitless in strength potential that he can access just by being angry, so unless juggie has another wy of beating him, mono or mono will leave juggie buried under another mountain, when hulk accidentally steps aside of a cain marko running towards him

oh and my fanboyism is unfathomable in POTENTIAL

Originally posted by Tough Guy
good god i hate going round in circles

dont we all 😉

Originally posted by Tough Guy

howvere they dont make juggie a winner.

sure they do...

Originally posted by Tough Guy
*hulk has THE POTENTIAL for unlimited strength thats accessed by anger, why would he not get very angry????

yes i'm sure hed get very angry. but that doesnt change the fact that he was VERY angry in hulk 172. he was "on the virge of insanity" with rage. he was flat out... P I S S E D. but he still was no stronger than juggernaut. point is moot.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
he gets madded enough to smash onslaught yet has a soft spot for juggie?????

apparently so 🙂

Originally posted by Tough Guy
hulks base rate is about 100 tonnes for hulk juggie would start out who knows 5 times stronger, well hulk would be prety pissed at that, see my point

of coarse hes going to be pissed. not much he can do about it though 🙂

Originally posted by Tough Guy
* as hulk gets angrier he heals quicker, to the point any blows from juggie would heal, he is nigh indestructable, has been at ground zero for an atomic bomb explosion ,

when has he survived a nuclear explosion at ground zero?? and the fact that he has to heal from juggernauts blows isnt helping your arguement considering juggernaut will recieve -NO- damage in the first place.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
smashed through an asteroid, twice as big as earth, re entered earth etc face it whats juggie got thats gonna hurt savage ( not pro hulk)

he did hurt savage hulk 😉 now whos repeating themselves?? juggernaut could argueable accomplish any feat listed above because hes atleast hulks equal in strength (evident in ALL thier fights)

Originally posted by Tough Guy
*the chart was on your link
*why should the hulk lose on strength ever???

because juggernaut has proven just as strong... if not stronger. even the writers of hulk say juggernaut can tap into unlimited amounts of cyttoraks power... therefor he is probably stronger. "general consesus of marvel" is a direct quote.. geesh. accept the FACTS.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
why cant he get at his potential he only has to get angrier something that the hulk can do very well.

it doesnt help... refer back to previous fights. juggernaut is still on par with him no matter HOW ANGRY HE GETS.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
* what happened to juggie when hulk ( as war) had celestial energy???????

well considering hulk cannot duplicate that kind of power i'd say sure its going to be pretty lopsided. even then war hulk didnt have THAT much of an advantage.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
*war when created ( ill state again) was chosen by apoc ( hulk) as being the one hero with enoughpotential to be a member of the 4 horsemen,

well here is where you are making the mistake. had onslaught not occured apocalypse would have never been interested in hulk. he was only interested in hulk funneling energies from 2 universes. not in hulk himself.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
not juggie, juggie was used as a pawn to test wars powers, who had a higher base rate of strength ( we know not what) yet as hulk is limitless in strength POTENTIAL who says a savage hulk couldnt get there?,

actually apocalypse said juggernauts power was a valuable test to celestial might. not to hulks might. he also said he had long wondered who's power was greater... his own, or juggernauts. while he told hulk his resistance was futile. you are contradicting yourself by bring up war hulk.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
ok celestial power stopped juggie when it was with a hero strong enough to overpower juggie on an equal footing,

hulk isnt on equal footing. marvel has confirmed this (hulks writers also) and juggernaut has more than matched him. and what stopped juggernaut was no PHYSICAL.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
yes i can now slate how silly i think the ''nothing is gonna stop juggie'' yup, till someone else has some celestial power is the answer.

well you saw what happened when hulk used his power to try to stop juggernaut... he got pushed back. but when the 2 universes of energy kicked in, only then was he haulted. does that tell you something???

Originally posted by Tough Guy
*it is poor writing and eratic having hulk beaten by ur namours and aboms etc on one hand physically, yet lifting mountains, smashing onslaught, smashing asteroids etc on the other, all hulk has to do to tap into his infinite unlimited, no maximum potential is get angry, and er cant he do that well as a charcter anyway, so why should writers dissregard this.

nobody said disregard it, i'm simply saying juggernaut has proven he is just as strong as hulk no matter how mad he has been historically.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
it happens all the time in comics hence these threads, also people pissed at how onslought pissed on your fave juggie, or why thors god force didnt do more to this guy or that. i dont want to see hulk beaten physiacally is my point tron, it stinks a lot of the time of inconsistencies,

talk about inconsistancy... onslaught was inconsistancy... onslaught can CASUALLY dig his fingers about in juggernauts chest but thors god force cant even tickle him?? how can that NOT be bad writing...

Originally posted by Tough Guy
i want to see him lose in more imaginative ways than be told he got beat by juggie cos he couldnt reach the right level of strength, yet 2 comics down the line watch him shatter a mountain within mins of becoming the hulk.

and us juggernaut fans dont want to see juggernaut lose this way either... considering its his gimmick not to get hurt... whats your point???

Originally posted by Tough Guy
hulk is the strongest as is limitless in strength potential that he can access just by being angry, so unless juggie has another wy of beating him, mono or mono will leave juggie buried under another mountain, when hulk accidentally steps aside of a cain marko running towards him

juggernaut would easily get out... this kind of happened in thier first fight.. hulk threw juggernaut into the mountain... yadda yadda yadda.. but unless hulk thinks up a strategy he isnt going to bring juggernaut down physically. but considering these 2 both have the same primary attack (hitting) the odds favor juggernaut. hulk has potential... but juggernaut is already there. hulk has a goal, and thats reaching juggernauts level. till he does there is no reason to think hes stronger 🙂

Juggernaut, as a character, is designed to be able to defeat the likes of Hulk. It's not really an even match up because of his invulnerability to physical attacks.

The only thing Hulk could do is knock Juggernaut into space or drop him into a volcano, and Jugg would still come back, but essentially you could say he lost the fight.

And YES, i know about the molten lead being dropped on him, but that isn't the same as being dropped into a pool of lava that seeming leads directly to the center of the Earth.

Juggernaut is a living embodiment of raw power (thats cytorraks trait 😉 ) With juggernaut tapping into that supply of raw power like jug fan said it will take hulk a good time to get there but juggernaut is there so put the pieces of the puzzle together

.

I see someone's read nothing in here. Reflect on the fact that Hulk with his "limitless" strength has had so much trouble with Juggernaut whenever they've met.

Sorry guy, ive read what you have to say but im just not moved. Ive already explained what I think would happen. Itd be basically a stalemate for a long while until hulk strength grew to crazy levels at which point he would probably throw him somewhere or soemthing.

So with all juggs invenurability he was spanked by onslaught yet Hulk was able to get through?

did you miss the part where he said onslaught was inconsistant.
One example (this is my main ex.) Juggernauts indestructible armor which cannot be broken no matter the force agaist it well just so you can see how inconsistant onslaught is

http://groups.msn.com/TheHumanJuggernaut/juggernautgallery.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=119

then of course there is the thumb action super poke that he gave him.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
oh and my fanboyism is unfathomable in POTENTIAL

Yeah, I figured that out on my own, lol. Sorry if I insulted you with the fanboyism comments. Don't get me wrong, you ARE a fanboy in every sense of the word, but I didn't mean to be offensive, if it sounded that way. Anyways, Jugfan already beat me to any point I would've made, and said it better than I probably could have, so we're done Tough Guy, cause we ARE just going in circles.

And, for those that continue to say that War's power was all his own, or that Hulk is alsolutely the top dog at Marvel, well, here's a few letter responses from Marvel HQ. Here's one from Hulk #461:

http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing/Juggy_vote2.txt

And here's another from Hulk #424:

http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing/Juggy_vote1.txt

Now anyone can keep arguing on those matters, but the proof is right there. If anyone else has a problem with any of those points, take it up with Marvel. And with that I am done.💃

did you miss the part where he said onslaught was inconsistant.
One example (this is my main ex.) Juggernauts indestructible armor which cannot be broken no matter the force agaist it well just so you can see how inconsistant onslaught is

Isnt silver surfer considered indesctubile but he can still be hurt by powerful characters?

I saw this thread for the first time a month ago. I made an effort to read as much of this thread as I can. I barely scratched the surface of it. This match up used to be a tie for me. However, after reading everybody's arguments and evidence, I am now slightly leaning towards Juggernaut. How long is this thread going to last? It is reaching 1500 responses. This thread is a beast.

The metaphysical Ruby of Cyttorak transforms Cain Marko into the unstoppable force, the Juggernaut.

A heightened concentration of adrenaline precipitates the mutation of Bruce Banner into the Incredible Hulk, granting him increased mass and strength. As this concentration increases, so does the efficiency of his metabolism, thereby making him exponentially stronger.

A force who is unstoppable by the laws of physics or a mutant whose powers can be nullified with a tranquilizer?

Juggernaut.

Just out of sheer curiosity, hasn't the Juggernaut been weakened considerably in the last 3 years? Or so I've heard.

Originally posted by Nathaniel Grey
Just out of sheer curiosity, hasn't the Juggernaut been weakened considerably in the last 3 years? Or so I've heard.

yes... actually he has. but HOPEFULLY with the god awful writer that did it to him (the one that i shall not name) is gone, he may be returning to normal. SOMETIME in the distant future.

but i am argueing about both in their prime. hulk vs... classic juggernaut.

IT'S CHUCK "THE SUCK" AUSTEN!!

There, I said it. He's gone now though, and hopefully Peter Milligan will clean up the horrible mess he made.