Slogans of the two:
"Nothing can stop the Juggernaut!"
"HULK SMASH" and "HULK is the STRONGEST".
I mention them because they're constantly used...the writers want to make a point.
In the MU, the writers reserve the right to make Hulk as strong as they want. They can't always do this, as that would make for a very boring character. However, the potential for limitless strength is exactly that. And writers typically tap into this potential when they write themselves into a difficult plot line (Onslaught is a prime example).
Juggernaut is meant to be unstoppable. However, he's always thwarted. Always. Now hulk may be stronger, however the writers are clear on one thing: he's mortal. Jugs is not. The whole thing about war hulk slicing off Jugs head was rubbish, as it'd probably just magically grow back or attach itself back. He's not a Highlander for frigs sake...I don't think it's possible to kill him physically.
I saw a nice issue of "what-if" I think it was - Jugs along with a a handful of people were the only survivors on Earth. Jugs was wondering the earth looking for other people, and once he found them (after plowing through Magneto) he exposed them all to a virus...they died leaving him the only one alive on earth.
I usually don't like using What Ifs in these threads, but I will acknowledge those that stay somewhat true to a character's powers, abilities, and personality. That issue pretty much did that. Although it wasn't continuity, it it was a good example of how Juggernaut's powers work. I won't use it against this thread though, but I'll acknowledge it nonetheless. At least it wasn't like Punisher killing the Marvel universe. Then again, worse things have happened in continiuty, like Wolverine surviving a nuke at ground zero, but I won't get into that.😐
well here we go again, juggie fan unlimited power of cytorrak, hmmmm, wasnt very useful against war, END 2 universes. hulk was made war due to the unlimited potential of his own power END. huk is the strongest POTENTIALLY as his strength is limitless juggies power is limitless ; er and thatis being able to run in a particular direction, er whoopiedoo. ( not limitless strength)END savage hulk would be able to accesss whatever strength he needs theoretically as only needs to get angry, er doesnt ned to work out much to do haENd now dont go quoting comic strips of the past cos we can all sit here like i said and quote inconsistencies in writing, and alwats will, hence im only arguing from the logic of the powers these two guys were created with, comics never will let there be a decider between guys like these as they need threads like this to sell their comics next time theres a hulk v juggie, and juggie wins but wait against a grey hulk, or hulk wins but juggie has no helmet and the last shot sgows charles xavier watching from a distance etc. ENd in a slugfest hulk would grow equally strong and indestructable s he got angrier, its his power live with it END juggies celestial power may be limitless but thats not physical strength, thats force field and to put it simply run in a particular direction, , yes hulk cant hurt him, though when he reaches enough power himself who knows, but can hurl him somewhere and thats it really cos juggie is not physically stronger than him, and yes marvel will always imply that theres some feelingin their office to this and that to stir up the controversy ideal marketing really. its just logical that someone with unlimited strength is not gonna have any one stronger END
and for the last freakin time, hulks base strength was increased as war thats all, he wasnt made stronger in as much as he has acces to unlimited STRENGTh as savge ll the time, juggie does not END. juggie is there to basically pound at the hulk till he gets angry enough to throw him somewhere else etc, juggie cant hurt hulk ( savage not prof), hulk cant hurt juggie, when it comes to strength not power strength ( which is a power so again marvel writers are wrong) hulk cant be beaten as he has no limit, the only argument is how quick he can access his strength, and well thats been shown to be done very quickly hence held up billions of tonnnes without much warning, yet due to writers being dumb next issue would take 20 times longer to do something else so all i say is im gonna create my own charcter called tough guy,
strength..... unlimited grows with rage, starts at 100 tonnes
endurance ........will grow tired after months of physical excursion (but is so strong by then that has accomplished whatever i need
speed....can run at 300 mph leaping 3 miles with each jump.
powers/weapons...... can cause mini earthquakes, thunder claps,can heal, this speeds up with my anger increasing, no limit to my healing known, if there is 1, i seem to be resistant to mental control.
durability....... heal quicker as i get angrier, able to regenerate from atomic explosions etc, punch with the power of atomic explosions, able to withstand most weapons, those i cant i heal from within secs. Though not officially i am indestructable till proven otherwise.
RIGHT lets change this around, tell me how juggie is gonna beat me!!!!!!!!!!!!! and now we need common sense as i have no comic book to revert back to.
Originally posted by JuggernautFan
EVERYBODY READ. this is very interesting and i just learned of it myself. this for everybody especially *wyndarr* or however you spell his name. i believe it was you and somebody else *never* maybe. that said hulks strength wasnt increased in 457 against the juggernaut. that he was producing the same results in hulk 450 (which happens to be the issue that started the whole story arch that leads up to issue 457)http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing/Juggy_vote2.txt
in case you dont know thats by the writers of hulk. you know, the ones in the back of the magazine that answer all (actually not all) of the letters that the fans mail in. hope you all enjoy this.
Saying that Hulk has unlimited strength, so those extras didn't help much, is a lame excuse (he has, by the way, the POTENTIAL to become unlimited strong, but it isn't he just has to push a button to access his unlimited strength). He always, always had trouble fighting Juggernaut (where was his unlimited strength back then ? On holiday, I suppose) but suddenly, a with celestial weapons equiped War Hulk kicks Juggernaut around, and still, some people say it has nothing to do with these weapons...
Sigh... 🙁
Well its Wynndar...i know how hard it can be to figure out seven letters...my stance has basically been that enhancing the strength of a person with unlimited strength in redundant...I am completely comfortable with saying that Apoc increased the base strength of the Professor Hulk...but by definition, you cant really increase the potential strength of the Hulk...its not an opinion, its just...math...infinite times 2 is still just infinite...thats why i mostly just consider the War thing redundant and bad writing....especially since War just ripped off his armor and leaped away, the end...without further follow up or explanation. If there were no further repercussions or effects of Apoc's tech on the Hulk then I dont think it was really that profound of an increase.
Originally posted by Tough Guy
well here we go again, juggie fan unlimited power of cytorrak, hmmmm, wasnt very useful against war, END
but what power would be good against 2 universes worth of energy?? juggernaut put up a good fight for being so short handed.
Originally posted by Tough Guy
2 universes. hulk was made war due to the unlimited potential of his own power END.
no he was made that way because apocalypse' tech picked up on him funneling the energies. had it been j. jonah jameson... what would you be saying then?? jjj has unlimited strength also?? no... it was the circumstances that lead up to heroes reborn hulk that apoc was interested in... not hulk himself.
Originally posted by Tough Guy
huk is the strongest POTENTIALLY as his strength is limitless
didnt ever do him much good against juggernaut... did it?? END.
Originally posted by Tough Guy
juggies power is limitless ; er and thatis being able to run in a particular direction, er whoopiedoo. ( not limitless strength)END
seems to me juggernaut never runs from a fight (especially with hulk) therefore he must KNOW hes more powerful. he he... END
Originally posted by Tough Guy
savage hulk would be able to accesss whatever strength he needs theoretically as only needs to get angry,
yea but you are failing to realize hulk in this form already fought juggernaut... he could only stalemate him. he was "on the virge of insanity" with rage. how can he access the power of war hulk if he cant even overpower juggernaut the same way???
Originally posted by Tough Guy
er doesnt ned to work out much to do haENd
apparently he needs to work out a hell of alot more considering he cant get the job done on HIS OWN POWER. END.
Originally posted by Tough Guy
now dont go quoting comic strips of the past cos we can all sit here like i said and quote inconsistencies in writing,
apparently juggernaut has just been inconsistanly kicking everybodies a s s since he was first thought of. including hulk.
Originally posted by Tough Guy
and alwats will, hence im only arguing from the logic of the powers these two guys were created with, comics never will let there be a decider between guys like these as they need threads like this to sell their comics next time theres a hulk v juggie, and juggie wins but wait against a grey hulk, or hulk wins but juggie has no helmet and the last shot sgows charles xavier watching from a distance etc. ENd
i pretty much agree there will NEVER be an end. but i think its evident (the writers and the battles themselves) that juggernaut is stronger, and more than likely just all around more powerful... but now that i have given you evidence that the writers say juggernaut is stronger, and that hulks strength was increased in 457 you will dispute what the writers say 😉 not very nice of you to do that. sure find a way around it. but you should just learn to bend over and back into it. its sooo much easier.
Originally posted by Tough Guy
in a slugfest hulk would grow equally strong and indestructable s he got angrier, its his power live with it END
you are an idiot.... hulk might eventually grow just as strong, but not anywhere near as indestructable 😉 that was just silly to say.
Originally posted by Tough Guy
juggies celestial power may be limitless but thats not physical strength, thats force field and to put it simply run in a particular direction, , yes hulk cant hurt him, though when he reaches enough power himself who knows, but can hurl him somewhere and thats it really cos juggie is not physically stronger than him, and yes marvel will always imply that theres some feelingin their office to this and that to stir up the controversy ideal marketing really. its just logical that someone with unlimited strength is not gonna have any one stronger END
its not celestial power that powers juggernaut... and juggernauts strength is just as great as hulk regardless of anger (look at ALL thier fights). juggernaut doesnt run, and rarely uses his force field. hulk wont have time to reach a certain level of power because he will be laying unconscious... juggernaut doesnt have a set limit to his durability 😉 and now that the writers tell you juggernaut is stronger, they must be bad writers too huh?? hmm, seems to me that us juggernaut defenders have layed out more than enough proof that war hulk wasnt hulks power, and that juggernaut is just as strong as hulk in any incarnation...
Originally posted by Wynndar
Well its Wynndar...
sorry, my bad 🙂
Originally posted by Wynndar
i know how hard it can be to figure out seven letters...my stance has basically been that enhancing the strength of a person with unlimited strength in redundant...
how so?? hulk isnt just unlimitedly (is that a word??) strong. he has to get mad to achieve it. it does take time. then there has to be a limit. you can only get sooo mad. so why not say war hulk was stronger because he just mentally summoned LIMITLESS amounts of energy that manfiested physically?? he didnt have to get mad... he just thought it... and it was there. i'm not sure how you are thinking about this, but thats my take on it.
Originally posted by Wynndar
I am completely comfortable with saying that Apoc increased the base strength of the Professor Hulk...but by definition, you cant really increase the potential strength of the Hulk...
yes you can 😉 hulk isnt always just strong. as evident in his fights with things (and apparently juggernaut since he cant overpower him). in the war hulk version, he just mentally summoned the power necessary to get the job done. he cant do that as just plain old -hulk-.
Originally posted by Wynndar
its not an opinion, its just...math...infinite times 2 is still just infinite...
no... its still your opinion. hulks base strength (by the handbooks) is started at class 90 ton in most incarnations. he can increase his strength with rage... but thats it. it takes anger to do so. even then how mad can one get (on the virge of insanity is probably the upper crust of how mad he can get i would imagine 🙂 ) but in war hulk form... he just had the strength. it was there.
Originally posted by Wynndar
thats why i mostly just consider the War thing redundant and bad writing....
i agree 100 percent.... but you claim everything juggernaut related is bad writing. so what is good writing?? anything that makes hulk look good?? hmmm, now thats not using your head.
Originally posted by Wynndar
especially since War just ripped off his armor and leaped away, the end...without further follow up or explanation. If there were no further repercussions or effects of Apoc's tech on the Hulk then I dont think it was really that profound of an increase.
i dont know why they did this either... my guess is just to give hulk a win over juggernaut to keep the debate going. it seems to be the entire point to the issue. why would they do this for 1 issue?? doesnt make sense to me either.
I dont claim everything Juggernaut related is bad writing, I wouldnt have gone out of my way to acquire almost every comic with an appearance by Juggernaut...I think he is very interesting and a good character...There was originally a lot of depth to the character, and still a long way they can go. Im not trying to argue philosophies with u...Hulk's power is unlimited, as stated multiple times by characters like the Beyonder. Jug's powercomes from Cyttorak(limited)...these r just facts.
juggie fan u r still not listening or maybe reading my points,. logic, hulk has unlimited strength, or potential, ( this actually means the same as he always starts out weaker ) how can juggie be stronger, at the beginn
ing maybe i grant u, although ive not seen a lot of evidence he has huge physical strength, hulk can get very strong very quick end, now ill be insulting, hide all u want, apoc just increased hulks base strength, live with it, i dont know why he did as savage is more than capable of angering up to pretty much match anyones strength all he needs to do is get angry your boy just met someone who was able to overstep juggies cyttorak power, 2 universes, well, no one knows where hulks infinite power comes from, yes infinite ie cant go infinite and 1 dick head, so maybe regular hulk siphons power from all universes a all times ( hed have to as infinity has no end, also no beginning but thats science) so 2 universes theoretically would be a handicap, so as i say screw writers who know nothing, they write stories on characters that clearly in the hulks case and he is a simple character, they have no consistency with, i turn my argument to the character i invented earlier, now tell me how juggie is gonna beat me, how , not from issue 76 of this or that but based on common sense or powers we know r associated with the hero. its too inconsistent using comic books as they r inconsistent to characters, fun to read but useless for this thread as inconclusive.
hence bad writing if u have a creature with potentially limitless power ie hulk who only needs anger ( a simple emotion) to get to, never allowed to show this potential when he fights your juggies or thors etc ( who also owns juggies arse), ie they seem to hold hulks power back aall the time as and juggie fan again u dont seem to understand this, hulk grows very strong very quick, and ould not be knocked out (savage not prof) by juggie whos physical strength is not that powerful, his powers are invincibility and able to move undisturbed in a particular directio, like i said, forest gump with a helmet
Originally posted by Tough Guy
juggie fan u r still not listening or maybe reading my points,. logic, hulk has unlimited strength, or potential, ( this actually means the same as he always starts out weaker ) how can juggie be stronger, at the beginn
ing maybe i grant u, although ive not seen a lot of evidence he has huge physical strength, hulk can get very strong very quick end, now ill be insulting, hide all u want, apoc just increased hulks base strength, live with it, i dont know why he did as savage is more than capable of angering up to pretty much match anyones strength all he needs to do is get angry your boy just met someone who was able to overstep juggies cyttorak power, 2 universes, well, no one knows where hulks infinite power comes from, yes infinite ie cant go infinite and 1 dick head, so maybe regular hulk siphons power from all universes a all times ( hed have to as infinity has no end, also no beginning but thats science) so 2 universes theoretically would be a handicap, so as i say screw writers who know nothing, they write stories on characters that clearly in the hulks case and he is a simple character, they have no consistency with, i turn my argument to the character i invented earlier, now tell me how juggie is gonna beat me, how , not from issue 76 of this or that but based on common sense or powers we know r associated with the hero. its too inconsistent using comic books as they r inconsistent to characters, fun to read but useless for this thread as inconclusive.
first off, ok i'm glad we all agree that apoc increased hulks base strength. from around 100 tons to several hundre thousand tons. do we agree?? just as evidence war hulk was tossing a pyramid around like a baseball. his base strength was increased by alot. now what i'm trying to tell YOU. on top of this... if there was something he couldnt move, all he had to do was summon more energies. so instead of being angry and acquiring more strength, he summoned energies from 2 universe. on top of all this, the energy engulfed hulks body and negated juggernauts magics (his invulnerability and unstopability) so juggernaut was naturally going to be helpless against this version.
also you keep saying hulk has limitless potential... but the same thing has been stated by writers and juggernaut/juggernauts enemies alike. even hulks writers claim that juggernaut is stronger, because he can call upon the -LIMITLESS- energies of cyttorak. please refer to the link if you dont believe me. juggernauts power (regardless of how much) manifests physically. just like hulk. so if he has limitless energies to call upon, theoretically he is just as strong as hulk if not stronger regardless of anger.
link - http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing/Juggy_vote1.txt
make sure you read that last line. just in case you dont.. let me quote it for you "but current opinion around marvel HQ is that it is the juggernaut because of the LIMITLESS power of cyttorak he can call upon". that is straight out of an issue of hulk.
of coarse its "the writers know nothing". and before it was juggernaut is bad writing. whats it going to be next?? hmmm, it seems hulk is just outclassed to me 🙂
but this thread has gone on long enough, i dont really feel like argueing it again. i just wanted you all to see those news letters (from hulk writers/magazine). that said juggernaut was stronger, and that i was right all along (hulks strength was significantly increased).