Originally posted by Reborn Again
Not all of us need to go to church for God to hear us. A church is merely a conduit where people go to express their beliefs. Said to be the House of God, a church is a holy place. But God can hear you anywhere.
True, but IMO I think that God would much more prefer to see us all coming together and pray for a better world.
WD> I get where you're coming from with the "community" thing. It's important to recognise also that quite a few religions emphasize worshipping/studying with others. One of Buddhism's "three jewels of refuge" is Sangha, or the Buddhist community. Muslims, as everybody probably knows by now, sometimes pray in huge groups. So when it comes to religion, community is an important thing.
However, I think you are oversimplifying it a bit. When I went to church, honestly I never thought of it that way. Maybe I was missing the point, but it seems to me that if this is really what they were aiming for by going to church every Sunday, they would have told me. Too many Christians are active worshippers these days just because they are afraid of death/hell/whatever. This is where I'm going to agree with Alpha Centauri. If people really want to make a difference in the world, they shouldn't sit around praying... They should go out and do something. Like for example, if a homeless guy is sitting on a street corner begging, and everybody who passes just gives him "a prayer" but nobody actually gives him money--assuming he doesn't move for some reason--eventually he will starve to death. Prayer may help in some ways, like if you're sick, supposedly it can help you pull through, but it's not magic. It won't stop wars, it won't feed starving people, it won't cure all disease. I guess now I'm getting off on a tangent a little, but hopefully you get my point. Praying for something isn't going to make it happen. Personally, if I were God... I would want people to be able to make a difference themselves, without my help.
Also, Ush has already pointed out in a perfectly reasonable way, that we're crossing the line into areas we're not generally allowed to talk about, but he's allowed it to continue thus far.This way it seems like those in favor and suportive of the christian believes get to say their stuff, while those who aint suportive of the christian view cant say anything cause it will assult the christians.
Originally posted by Darth Revan
However, I think you are oversimplifying it a bit.
Originally posted by Darth Revan
Too many Christians are active worshippers these days just because they are afraid of death/hell/whatever. This is where I'm going to agree with Alpha Centauri.
Originally posted by Darth Revan
If people really want to make a difference in the world, they shouldn't sit around praying... They should go out and do something.
Originally posted by Darth Revan
Like for example, if a homeless guy is sitting on a street corner begging, and everybody who passes just gives him "a prayer" but nobody actually gives him money--assuming he doesn't move for some reason--eventually he will starve to death.
Originally posted by Darth Revan
Prayer may help in some ways, like if you're sick, supposedly it can help you pull through, but it's not magic. It won't stop wars, it won't feed starving people, it won't cure all disease. I guess now I'm getting off on a tangent a little, but hopefully you get my point. Praying for something isn't going to make it happen. Personally, if I were God... I would want people to be able to make a difference themselves, without my help.
Originally posted by finti
This way it seems like those in favor and suportive of the christian believes get to say their stuff, while those who aint suportive of the christian view cant say anything cause it will assult the christians.
I don't see anyone holding you or those that don't support christians back. Let it all out. Let freedom of speech prevail.
"I feel is a little out of line. Who are you to decide that Force is 'following blindly'? You were, however, exact in your reasoning, when you said that no-one knows if God exists, including yourself. I for one am not religious, I don't personally believe in an Almighty being. But I have yet to shove my views forcefully down everyone's throat. I have a hunch your opinions may be accepted less begrudgingly if you ceased to be so obvious in your apparent superiority. I apologise in advance for being a little harsh, but as the age old saying conveys; If you can't take it,"
I can take whatever I give out. I'm one man and I can't make it fact that he's following blindly but from the evidence he's given on this thread and threads like these, it appears he is following rather blindly indeed. I don't believe I'm being offensive and I'm not forcing my opinions on anyone, I could care less if people agree or not really. You're just taking it too harshly. This thread wont be closed if people realise that everybody has the right to express their views controversial or not. I'm not cursing at anyone or anyone's beliefs. Just questioning them.
"It's called organized religion. Is like being part of a "community". I'm sure you live or are aware that a "community" works together for better purpose. The same can be say about the Christian community. Let me tell you something about me. Near my apartment complex there are many members of a church that always invited me to go to service. Now, I'm always turning them down because I'm not interested. But these neighbors of mine are very friendly, and very polite individuals. They don't go around preaching me or telling I'm a sinner. Or even try to convert me into their religion."
I'm not saying Christians are all hypocrites or anything. I think if people wanna try and better theirselves and their lives by praying and making an effort themselves to get in touch with the God they believe in, great. Good for them. What I don't get is how a majority believe God hears us all and listens to us all, yet feel obliged to go to a church and pray WHILE listening to some ordinary man tell you what God wants for you. It's like, Man A walks into a car dealership to buy a car from Man C who will sit down and talk with him to arrange a price and what not. Man B comes in delivering messages from Man A to Man C and vice versa. He's not neccessary. If he got out the way and let the two conversate then the thing would be over alot quicker. Middle men aren't neccessary in most cases so why would they be when it comes to reaching contact with an omnipotent being?
"Why do you think they always asking strangers to join them in prayer? Because for them the act of prayer is an act of brotherhood. They come together as one and pray. Maybe after praying they might sociliazie and understand each other problems. Might even help each other."
While this may be a reason some Christians do genuinely wanna pray with strangers, I believe it's very possible that they don't wanna be alone. Purely because if you do something stupid (not insinuating praying is stupid AT ALL) on your own, you will feel like a nutcase. Hence why when you were a kid, if you wanted to go to somewhere you shouldn't, you'd always convince a buddy to come so you never felt like you were the only dumb one to do it. Maybe if certain Christians find their beliefs or faith faultering then the invite others along for reinforcement of their own faith.
"They knew that if they pray they would get kill and they pray. You think that in the future people will be more technological and less faithfull? I doubt it! As long as people think they are spiritual, I seriously doubt that faith will go away."
Well for me to answer this you only need look at Christians then and Christians now. Back then they were all about the faith coz there was nothing to dissuade them. If their beliefs were true they should have stuck with them and they did. But as time has gone on, even men of the cloth have dipped into the pool of debauchery. You get priests involved in child porn and molestation. Evangelists preaching one moment then dipping into the collection plate the next. As technology has advanced faith in the less faithful, less persevering Christians has faultered. Look around if it's evidence you want.
"I think that there plenty of people that are not Christians and are more afraid of death. Again, I don't want to sound like I'm defending Christianity, but I think they want to worship because either they want to repent for committing bad things and maybe want to make peace with themselves and with their spiritual mind."
True enough, but if the reason you don't fear death if your a Christian is because you feel you're going to Heaven, having followed the Ten Commandments or what have you, then have you ever truly lived anyway? I mean lets face it. If you lived by most of those, how much human satisfaction would you get? If it's a choice between Hell and fun on Earth or Heaven and restriction, I know where I'll go. Again, don't go off on one saying "Oh Alpha is trying to say Religion=Restriction." I'm not saying it as fact, I'm saying it from personal opinion.
"1. That person might be a junky who only wants the money to buy his drugs. 2. I don't feel like giving that person money because like I said above there is already Christian Missions that can help him get some food."
Why are you not willing to give him money incase he/she uses it for drugs? Because you don't wanna be responsible or you just don't like drugs? You wont be responsible coz it's his/her fault if they buy drugs and not food and end up dying. Yet it's wrong to deprive someone of the possibility that they might buy food, purely coz you think they shouldn't take drugs. All this applies if you believe in giving money in the first place.
"Call me naive, but I've seen a few people beat the odds by having some faith and hope. "
Well that's like everyday life. If you are growing up and start noticing girls and there's a girl you like, praying that she notices you wont do anything about it. Having confidence and having faith in yourself may help you to pluck up the courage to do something. But faith and religious faith are two different areas. People too often pray, THEN get non-religious faith to help them overcome their obstacle. When they do they put it down to the prayer rather than their own willpower.
There's a quote in the movie "Bruce Almighty" which I feel says alot:
"People want me to do everything for them when they don't realise they have the power. You want to see a miracle, be the miracle."
People need to start fixing things themselves in their lives, by first realising that they have the power to. Water into wine isn't gonna happen infront of your face but getting that raise at work will happen if you go in, work hard by YOURSELF and make it happen.
-AC
"While this may be a reason some Christians do genuinely wanna pray with strangers, I believe it's very possible that they don't wanna be alone. Purely because if you do something stupid (not insinuating praying is stupid AT ALL) on your own, you will feel like a nutcase. Hence why when you were a kid, if you wanted to go to somewhere you shouldn't, you'd always convince a buddy to come so you never felt like you were the only dumb one to do it. Maybe if certain Christians find their beliefs or faith faultering then the invite others along for reinforcement of their own faith."
I don't think is about convincing anybody. I think is more like an invitation to join others in church for lecture on peace and JC teachings. I don't see how their beliefs might faulter just because they invite new people. After all JC when he was alive (according to the NT) invited many to listen to his lectures on love and peace.
"Well for me to answer this you only need look at Christians then and Christians now. Back then they were all about the faith coz there was nothing to dissuade them. If their beliefs were true they should have stuck with them and they did. But as time has gone on, even men of the cloth have dipped into the pool of debauchery. You get priests involved in child porn and molestation. Evangelists preaching one moment then dipping into the collection plate the next. As technology has advanced faith in the less faithful, less persevering Christians has faultered. Look around if it's evidence you want."
I don't see what's the big difference between then and now. Basically they been saying that we should all follow the message of JC, to love and care for each other. As for those preachers that have committed evil acts........take a look an earlier post of mine. I said that being a Christian doesn't guarantee a ticket to heaven. Only those that have been giving love and care for others get into heave (or so I think). Those preachers shouldn't be called Christians AT ALL! From what I hear they gonna face The justice system and in the end the Justice of God.
"Why are you not willing to give him money incase he/she uses it for drugs? Because you don't wanna be responsible or you just don't like drugs? You wont be responsible coz it's his/her fault if they buy drugs and not food and end up dying. Yet it's wrong to deprive someone of the possibility that they might buy food, purely coz you think they shouldn't take drugs. All this applies if you believe in giving money in the first place."
Plain and simple.....I don't have to support someone's else addiction. He wants drugs then go get a job. I only help charity NOT addicts. I rather give my money to welfare homes. I know those places don't cheat. Besides I'm not gonna puzzle myself thinking "did I do the right thing?" UH-uh! Not me, I'll help the homeless in other ways, but don't give money to those out on the street.
"Well that's like everyday life. If you are growing up and start noticing girls and there's a girl you like, praying that she notices you wont do anything about it. Having confidence and having faith in yourself may help you to pluck up the courage to do something. But faith and religious faith are two different areas. People too often pray, THEN get non-religious faith to help them overcome their obstacle. When they do they put it down to the prayer rather than their own willpower."
If I notice a girl I like I won't be praying to get to her. I rather walk up to her and tell how I feel. Besides can you tell the difference between faith and willpower? Doesn't sound easy to seperate.
"There's a quote in the movie "Bruce Almighty" which I feel says alot:
'People want me to do everything for them when they don't realise they have the power. You want to see a miracle, be the miracle.'
People need to start fixing things themselves in their lives, by first realising that they have the power to. Water into wine isn't gonna happen infront of your face but getting that raise at work will happen if you go in, work hard by YOURSELF and make it happen."
I'll trust ya on that one......I saw Bruce Almighty once and didn't find it hilarious or funny....but that's just me.
"I don't see how their beliefs might faulter just because they invite new people. "
I wasn't saying their beliefs flop because of that. I said that may be a reason why faith-lacking Christians convince others to come along. It's highly likely.
"I don't see what's the big difference between then and now"
Really? Wow. It's that big of a difference that no one sees it. Pro-life Christians murdering doctors for performing abortions because they believe life is precious. Pretty big difference to me.
"Those preachers shouldn't be called Christians AT ALL!"
But they are. They follow all the same "rules" that most Christians do but in the end, behind the curtain they obviously don't have as much faith in the lord than they tell their congregation. Hence why I don't believe priests are needed in this world at all. Churches to me, are also pretty pointless but at least they have SOME meaning.
"Plain and simple.....I don't have to support someone's else addiction. He wants drugs then go get a job. I only help charity NOT addicts. I rather give my money to welfare homes. I know those places don't cheat. Besides I'm not gonna puzzle myself thinking "did I do the right thing?" UH-uh! Not me, I'll help the homeless in other ways, but don't give money to those out on the street."
So you're willing to turn away someone's pleas for food on the possibility that they may by drugs JUST to satisfy your conscience? You honestly think an old guy on the street is gonna waste the money you give him to go to a dealer and buy something that's already gonna **** him up more, or is he gonna buy something to eat? You can normally tell. If I see a younger person laying on the pavement then it's more likely they will use it for drugs than not, I think.
"Besides can you tell the difference between faith and willpower? Doesn't sound easy to seperate."
Yes I can. Faith is when you believe in possible things/occurances that haven't come about yet. If you have no idea as to whether said girl likes you or not but you believe it's possible that she does or could come around to, that is faith to me. Willpower is having the guts and determination to work at or through something already there. For example you don't need faith to quit smoking. You need willpower. But you would use faith to help a loved one through a hospital spell with an illness or something.
"I'll trust ya on that one......I saw Bruce Almighty once and didn't find it hilarious or funny....but that's just me."
The work bit was essentially put in by me. Not the movie, although yeah it is similar. Weird. But the quote was just to show that it should be like that. I think so anyway.
"AC - Thanks for clarifying, I was too quick to judge, apologies "
We all make mistakes. Apology accepted.
-AC
"Really? Wow. It's that big of a difference that no one sees it. Pro-life Christians murdering doctors for performing abortions because they believe life is precious. Pretty big difference to me."
Now wait a sec. I thought we were discussing the dogma in the Christian faith, not the current issues of abortion. I don't think that those individuals should be label as christians. They murder for whatever reason is still consider evil.
"But they are. They follow all the same "rules" that most Christians do but in the end, behind the curtain they obviously don't have as much faith in the lord than they tell their congregation. Hence why I don't believe priests are needed in this world at all. Churches to me, are also pretty pointless but at least they have SOME meaning."
I don't think so! They don't follow the rules, if they did they wouldn't be doing those evil things. Last time I check the NT has a message of peace and love NOT of raping or abusing children. Whether you want a priest in church or not is your choice. So far Christians don't have a problem with having a preacher conduct service. Using a simple metaphor, just picture a classroom with a teacher and students. The Teacher is giving lessons so that the students can learn. Well, now keep that in mind when you see people at church. Is like a classroom, someone has to keep order and organize the lessons. That's what a preacher does.
"So you're willing to turn away someone's pleas for food on the possibility that they may by drugs JUST to satisfy your conscience? You honestly think an old guy on the street is gonna waste the money you give him to go to a dealer and buy something that's already gonna **** him up more, or is he gonna buy something to eat? You can normally tell. If I see a younger person laying on the pavement then it's more likely they will use it for drugs than not, I think."
How can you know is a plead for food? is hard to know what that homeless person will do with the money. If he needs food that person has two choices 1. go to a mission and ask for food. 2. get a job! Do I honestly think that an old guy would use the money for drugs? Is a posibility he might do it! Old people have pains they need some kind of medication to soothe the pain. Getting high makes the pain go away. But giving him money is not helping that old guy. What he needs is to get into a community hospital.
"Yes I can. Faith is when you believe in possible things/occurances that haven't come about yet. If you have no idea as to whether said girl likes you or not but you believe it's possible that she does or could come around to, that is faith to me. Willpower is having the guts and determination to work at or through something already there. For example you don't need faith to quit smoking. You need willpower. But you would use faith to help a loved one through a hospital spell with an illness or something."
Both Will power and faith have one thing in common....and that is spirit. Yes, what we call human spirit helps a person face any odds. Whether the person fails or succeed the human spirit helps a person to be confident. However you define faith or Will power there still human spirit. From what I understand most religions always have that spiritual feeling.
They take verses from the books and manipulate them. Lawyers twist the law to get criminals innocent. Is the oldest trick in the world.no, the oldest trick in the world is to say "look" and point into the opposite direction of the other person view, then eat the last goodie thingie when he/she turns to look. Or make a face at his/hers back
"Now wait a sec. I thought we were discussing the dogma in the Christian faith, not the current issues of abortion. I don't think that those individuals should be label as christians. They murder for whatever reason is still consider evil."
Most of the time they believe and act as any other Christian does though. As I said, it's all interpretation of the book and God's will.
"Well, now keep that in mind when you see people at church. Is like a classroom, someone has to keep order and organize the lessons. That's what a preacher does."
Any person in adulthood that needs to be taught what to believe in is....well, kinda stupid in my eyes. Parents send kids to school to communicate and all the teachers do is tell them to shut up and be quiet. Priests don't encourage free choice for the most part.
"Old people have pains they need some kind of medication to soothe the pain. Getting high makes the pain go away. But giving him money is not helping that old guy. What he needs is to get into a community hospital. "
So give them a ride to the Hospital. Or money for a cab and see that they get in it. Right? If you give them money and they go get medication to help the pain go away, you're still helping them in the short term at least.
-AC
"Most of the time they believe and act as any other Christian does though. As I said, it's all interpretation of the book and God's will."
As I said before some of those people corrupt and manipulate those books for their own evil agendas.
"Any person in adulthood that needs to be taught what to believe in is....well, kinda stupid in my eyes. Parents send kids to school to communicate and all the teachers do is tell them to shut up and be quiet. Priests don't encourage free choice for the most part."
So in your eyes that's consider stupidity? I guess if they want to repent they should just forget it...that's a pity. What kind of schools are you talking about? Teachers tell kids to shut up when they are rowdy and don't let other kids learn! I don't blame teachers for that! You said priests don't encourage free choice? Are we going back to that abortion discussion again?
"So give them a ride to the Hospital. Or money for a cab and see that they get in it. Right? If you give them money and they go get medication to help the pain go away, you're still helping them in the short term at least."
That's not my resposability. Unless is an emergency I would offer my help. But for a guy that is asking for a quarter? Come on! that's just streching the question. I help charity not addicts. Why should I try to help a crackhead that doesn't want to be help in the first place?