Originally posted by Nephthys
When has Kabuto shown snake-shedding and regeneration?
He had some regen back in his old days. Remember when he tried to heal from Naruto's rasengan but found it was a bit much?
We're just assuming on the snake shedding, but considering Sasuke got it from his merge I think it makes sense.
Originally posted by Q99
It'd depend on how covered he was in amaterasu, wouldn't it?
It would but I'd think unless it covers his mouth he'd be fine. It's very likely that using his Sage Mode he could predict when Amaterasu would be used. Maybe not enough to avoid it but at least leave him an escape.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It would but I'd think unless it covers his mouth he'd be fine. It's very likely that using his Sage Mode he could predict when Amaterasu would be used. Maybe not enough to avoid it but at least leave him an escape.
Sasuke's 'amaterasu shotgun' is pretty nasty, I think it'd be hard to avoid. And even if Kabuto did it once, Sasuke could just continue firing.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
The thing used on the Zetsu? It looked cool I guess but I dunno if it's faster than Sasuke's normal arrow.
There's a whole bunch of them coming out at once, though.
And even his classic Amaterasu did fully engulf 8-tails in no time.
Oh yea, if the fight's outside he'll be able to charge up to Kirin too. Amaterasu flames to make heat are now cheap for him after all.
Originally posted by Q99
There's a whole bunch of them coming out at once, though.And even his classic Amaterasu did fully engulf 8-tails in no time.
Oh yea, if the fight's outside he'll be able to charge up to Kirin too. Amaterasu flames to make heat are now cheap for him after all.
He should be fine.
Indeed.
Can he charge it before Kabuto uses one of his two neato moves or summoning Manda 2?
Originally posted by Q99
Isn't it just Aura who's asked for a Kabuto bump so far?Personally I'd like to wait a bit more. Get more input from others, and maybe see some more jutsu. I'm not saying 'no,' just 'more info and opinions'.
Also, I think most of the S+ would beat him at this point if going for the kill. I mean, if Itachi and Sasuke were doing Amaterasu and using soul-swords and such, don't you think this would be a very different fight? That is, even individually?
Aura, Dew Demon and I have asked for the bump.
Itachi would own him. Not too sure about Sasuke. He wasn't able to materialize Susano'o when Kabuto used his Dragon-orb tech. Then again, Sasuke does have Kirin. awesome
As for other S+ ninjas, KCM Naruto and the 2nd Mizukage are the only guys I'd give Kabuto better odds over, for now at least. While most of the S+ would beat him, conversely, he'd beat most of the S ninjas as well. And he's supposed to be > Orochimaru, who IMO, is at the top of the S tier along with Jiraiya.
Also, you've arranged your tier list alphabetically yes? G comes before I in S+. 😛
Can he charge it before Kabuto uses one of his two neato moves or summoning Manda 2?
I think he could use it before those moves kill him, yea.
And amaterasu could kill Manda II. Engulf his head in fire and let that do the work.
Aura, Dew Demon and I have asked for the bump.
Seems like we have about an equal number of people against the bump.
As for other S+ ninjas, KCM Naruto and the 2nd Mizukage are the only guys I'd give Kabuto better odds over, for now at least. While most of the S+ would beat him, conversely, he'd beat most of the S ninjas as well.
He is on the edge.
And he's supposed to be > Orochimaru, who IMO, is at the top of the S tier along with Jiraiya.
But, I'd say with Sage mode Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru. Kabuto's stronger than Orochimaru but I'm not yet convinced he's stronger than Jiraiya (who has two moves that I think could be used to beat him- the frog throat trap, and frog song).
Also, you've arranged your tier list alphabetically yes? G comes before I in S+.
Gah! You're right. Yea, I'm going to have to fix that.
I know Kabuto's an uber tank and all and has a pretty nasty Genjutsu but how is he S+ material now? I mean his offensive capabilities are still a lot to be desired...unless you count Manda v2.
Well I'm not to sure about how he'd deal with KM Naruto though he does have a fair shot at the 2nd Mizukage...?
Right now I still see Kabuto as high tier S instead of a full blown S+.
Originally posted by Q99
? Repair doesn't mean someone isn't knocked out in the first place.A quick recovery from KO doesn't mean you weren't unconscious.
?
So I agree that your argument is invalid that KO from a bijuu blast is useless. So where is the problem now with amending your perspective?
Originally posted by Q99
If he's out cold or otherwise badly rattled, then lightning flow swords prevent liquidification and keeps him stunned, white snake and medic require more active action, and Killerbee can just slice his head off.
?
And you assume that all of this is possible to begin with? Why do you assume Kabuto is magically ignorant of any weaknesses he MIGHT have rather than assume he can easily avoid these problems. And, no, Oro seemed to regen his head and upper body. A head chop-off is not very useful. You also assume Kabuto is weak against lightning. Why? Where is this information that Kabuto's integration of the best of all worlds magically makes him still susceptible? You do know that a lightning blad was already used by Sasuke against Kabuto, right? Did not do very well, did it? Sasuke is certainly aware of the potential weakness against lightning, remember?
So we have every reason to believe any of the things above, that you have brought up, are useless against kabuto's current form. We only have reason to believe that he is certainly more powerful using suigetsu's abilities than suigetsu is.
S+ or SS- should be Kabuto's rating. Again, you are convincing me, more than ever, that Kabuto is even stronger than I thought. I am leaning more towards SS-.
And, no, Kabuto can repair himself just with his thoughts. Remember his fight with Tsunade? Yeah, that.
Originally posted by Q99
Once he's not actively defending, even defenses like Kabuto's can be overcome pretty easily.
That is explicitly false. He was spread out all over that cavern. He is more than capable of attacking and defending on multiple fronts, simultaneously.
On top of this...he did just that with his ET bodies. Kabuto's consciousness is the greatest one we have seen in the series, by far. The ability to actively and quickly control all of the bodies he did, at once? That's absurd. He makes even the computers on Star Trek ships look dumb.
If Kabuto had A level jutsus, I'd still put him at S simply due to how far advanced his consciousness is above everyone else in the series. Even Tobi and Nagato greatly pale in comparison to Kabuto's mind. Even Sasori's 100 puppet attack greatly pales in comparison.
Originally posted by Q99
Possibly he has whenever they pause, or possibly the snake attached to him is doing it.
Very excellent point. This may be why Kabuto is so confident in his sage abilities and sage arts. Those damn snakes make a near endless flow of chakra for him. Kabuto could spam high level techs. Maybe this is his true danger and why he thinks he is so strong?
Originally posted by Q99
It'd depend on how covered he was in amaterasu, wouldn't it?
No, that'd be the best defense of anything against Amaterasu, imo. White snake abilities are probably the best defensive "meatbag" jutsu in the series. The only thing more pratical as a defense is the wood element and sand abilities.
How would a Hyuga's abilities match up against white snake regen...from a defensive perspective?
Whether or not Kabuto is S or S+.
Also whether or not a Biju ball from Killerbee would be enough to take him down or at least leave him open enough for a finisher.
Originally posted by dadudemon
[B]?So I agree that your argument is invalid that KO from a bijuu blast is useless. So where is the problem now with amending your perspective?
I still don't get how it's supposed to be useless. Being able to recover from the damage doesn't mean someone isn't temporarily unable to defend themselves.
Biju ball is more than his powers have shown the ability to tank.
And you assume that all of this is possible to begin with? Why do you assume Kabuto is magically ignorant of any weaknesses he MIGHT have rather than assume he can easily avoid these problems.
What? I'm not assuming weaknesses- he hasn't show anything that'd indicate that he wouldn't be KOed.
"Taken out by Biju Balls" isn't a weakness that one can tweek away, it simply requires massive durability/power, that none of Kabuto's component powers have shown either separately or together.
And, no, Oro seemed to regen his head and upper body. A head chop-off is not very useful.
But that took an active jutsu while he's conscious and able to act.
I'm specifically addressing this as something to be done as a finisher when he's in bad shape from a major blast.
You also assume Kabuto is weak against lightning. Why? Where is this information that Kabuto's integration of the best of all worlds magically makes him still susceptible? You do know that a lightning blad was already used by Sasuke against Kabuto, right? Did not do very well, did it? Sasuke is certainly aware of the potential weakness against lightning, remember?
It worked against the liquid form, and Sasuke's blade only hit a snake portion.
And, no, Kabuto can repair himself just with his thoughts. Remember his fight with Tsunade? Yeah, that.
One of the things about unconsciousness is you can't really think very well.
That is explicitly false. He was spread out all over that cavern. He is more than capable of attacking and defending on multiple fronts, simultaneously.
I didn't say he couldn't handle attacks from multiple fronts simultaneously.
I said that his defense is reliant on him being active.
When active, he can deal with all kinds of stuff from many angles. If he just sits there (like after being hit by a major jutsu, or a strong genjutsu), he's not that hard to kill or seal.
No, that'd be the best defense of anything against Amaterasu, imo.
If he's completely engulfed in Amaterasu, any attempt to snake-shed out would involve going through amaterasu flames.
How would a Hyuga's abilities match up against white snake regen...from a defensive perspective?
Pros and cons. Hyuga abilities are cheaper, and prevent you from being affected in the first place. However they are only briefly active, and can be overwhelmed. White Snake requires a lot more chakra, but regen works against almost anything, unless the attack is so great it destroys the body or renders the user unable to activate the regen. You can also slowly accumulate damage during a fight and then get rid of it all at once, and do sacrifice plays that are suddenly not-so-sacrificey.
Orochimaru did put up the three iron gate technique to stop Naruto's biju ball for a reason- he felt that a direct hit would kill him even though he had the move.
Overall I'd go white snake, assuming you have the chakra for it.
Originally posted by Q99
Whether or not Kabuto is S or S+.
Actually, I have moved the discussion. It is whether or not Kabuto is S+ or SS-, now. He's definitely S+. It's whether or not he has the abilities to fight on par with SS-. I say he can.
Originally posted by Q99
Also whether or not a Biju ball from Killerbee would be enough to take him down or at least leave him open enough for a finisher.
I don't think so. That has been settled. You already conceded that even if a KO happened, it wouldn't matter because he can repair from it. Since he can grow his head back, it doesn't matter at this point.
Originally posted by Q99
I still don't get how it's supposed to be useless. Being able to recover from the damage doesn't mean someone isn't temporarily unable to defend themselves.Biju ball is more than his powers have shown the ability to tank.
Okay, I'll explain it again but in a different way.
Problem #1:
Biju ball will not kill Kabuto. At worst, it would KO Kabuto. At best, it would slow him down but create no tatical advantage and cause any biju or biju user to waste chakra.
Problem #2:
No matter what happens with the blast, Kabuto will recover from it. This is not disputable.
Problem #3:
Beacuse of #2, Kabuto will use lots of chakra repairing himself, over and over. This poses a problem with chakra drain. Oh, wait, it doesn't: sage mode with stationary snakes (you pointed this out).
Problem #4:
Even if someone really fast, like B, manages to chop off Kabuto's head while he is stunned from a biju blast and lightning combo, Kabuto still recovers, anyway. It's a temporary setback that only causes a user like B to waste chakra.
Because of problems 1-4, all but Minato and Itachi will never be able to defeat Kabuto. Minato might win with some seals that prevent Kabuto from being able to use certain techs (he can seal shit...in the anime...he sealed Tobi from being able to use Kurama again, in the future. Don't know if he did that in the manga, but I'm going to stick with it).
Originally posted by Q99
What? I'm not assuming weaknesses- he hasn't show anything that'd indicate that he wouldn't be KOed.
You are assuming unseen weaknesses. You give him a weakness despite him being able to draw upon 3 other sources of major power that all can counteract the effects of a biju blast.
Additionally, see points 1-4 for why any ideas down this path were actually in vain.
Originally posted by Q99
"Taken out by Biju Balls" isn't a weakness that one can tweek away, it simply requires massive durability/power, that none of Kabuto's component powers have shown either separately or together.
Actually, yes it is. Durablity is not required, at all, to overcome a biju blast. Minato has proven that. Durability is just one way. Another way is a dispersal form such as Suigetsu's water form. Add in massive abilities to recover and your avenue of argument has failed to shut down Kabuto's current form.
Originally posted by Q99
But that took an active jutsu while he's conscious and able to act.
Man, I am trying to be nice but comments like these make me want to reply with something smug. pained
It is sooooooooo very hard to resist, you have no idea.
Basically, my reply to this is: no, you're wrong. If your head is blown off...you are not "conscious"... because your head has been blown off. Oro clearly regen'd his upper body...for the most part. Any argument or avenue you wanted to take down this path is irrelevant or wrong. My point is still correct.
If your only complaint against my argument is the one you have above (which is a very...I dunno...bleh...can't put it into words without being condescending), then you should probably stop resisting my points and change him to S+ and or SS-.
Originally posted by Q99
I'm specifically addressing this as something to be done as a finisher when he's in bad shape from a major blast.
But he won't be in bad shape from the blast. 🙂
Originally posted by Q99
It worked against the liquid form, and Sasuke's blade only hit a snake portion.
A snake portion that seemed like a liquid form. Check it:
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-580-page-14.html
Looks like any physical attacks are useless as Kabuto kept his snake tail thingie solid so he could trick Itachi into trying to get the blade from him (Sasuke thought that Kabuto would need Sasuke's blade to cut his tail free).
Also, the snakes are/were connected to his body. 🙂
Basically, Kabuto is boss.
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-579-page-11.html
He has Karin's regenerative abilities (meaning, he can bring himself back from ...just about death), Oro's White Snake regenerative abilities, sage mode, medical ninjtsu, and he hinted at having "cursed seal" powers on that page I showed you.
Originally posted by Q99
One of the things about unconsciousness is you can't really think very well.
Good thing he has the white snake regen ability then, right?
I mean, at this point, surely you see how obvious my arguments are?
Originally posted by Q99
I didn't say he couldn't handle attacks from multiple fronts simultaneously.
Nor did I say you said that. I am simply adding to Kabuto's abilities.
Originally posted by Q99
I said that his defense is reliant on him being active.
No it is definitely not as I have more than proven, by this point. If this is what your last hold out is, then you can definitely move him to S+ or SS- without being worried about giving him too much credit.
Originally posted by Q99
When active, he can deal with all kinds of stuff from many angles. If he just sits there (like after being hit by a major jutsu, or a strong genjutsu), he's not that hard to kill or seal.
Sealing? Maybe. Killing? Definitely near impossible at this point.
Originally posted by Q99
If he's completely engulfed in Amaterasu, any attempt to snake-shed out would involve going through amaterasu flames.
So what's the problem with getting rid of his entire outer form very quickly? You do know that Sasuke saved Karin by taking off her shirt or some shit (was that it? I don't remember who it was, lol). So why would this be hard for Kabuto to do when he dodged Sasuke's lightning blade extend-o thingie at near point (pun?) blank range?
Hell, at this point, we might even be able to suggest that Kabuto's speed is enough to dodge amaterasu a la A.
Originally posted by Q99
Pros and cons. Hyuga abilities are cheaper, and prevent you from being affected in the first place. However they are only briefly active, and can be overwhelmed. White Snake requires a lot more chakra, but regen works against almost anything, unless the attack is so great it destroys the body or renders the user unable to activate the regen. You can also slowly accumulate damage during a fight and then get rid of it all at once, and do sacrifice plays that are suddenly not-so-sacrificey.
I see. Yes, I thought along those same lines, myself. For a very short period of time, the hyuga hakkesho Kaiten is supposedly even superior to Gaara's sand shield. But it seems to use up a crap ton of chakra.
Originally posted by Q99
Orochimaru did put up the three iron gate technique to stop Naruto's biju ball for a reason- he felt that a direct hit would kill him even though he had the move.
I agree: if Oro was vaporized (which is what would have happened) even his white snake ability would have failed.
However, add in suigetsu's liquid form and sage mode and then we have a person that can clearly tank a biju blast point blank and quickly recover from it.
Originally posted by Q99
Overall I'd go white snake, assuming you have the chakra for it.
Hmmm. Well, it probably depends on the situation, wouldn't you think? For a taijutsu user that has sealing abilities (minato comes to mind), white snake would be a bad idea. Against someone like Minato, Kaiten seems like a good choice.
Man, Sasuke needs to go insane again. Kishimoto made me a promise, saying that "Carnage Was About To Come To The Battlefield!" and I want to see it.
Originally posted by Q99
Seems like we have about an equal number of people against the bump.
Originally posted by Q99
He is on the edge.
As in between S and S+, or at the top of S? To be honest, I'd be okay with both right now.
Originally posted by Q99
But, I'd say with Sage mode Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru. Kabuto's stronger than Orochimaru but I'm not yet convinced he's stronger than Jiraiya (who has two moves that I think could be used to beat him- the frog throat trap, and frog song).
In a direct fight, yeah, he's probably stronger than Orochimaru thanks to Sage Mode.
Doubt the Elders would have enough time to pull off the Frog Song, due to Kabuto's White Rage tech.
Frog Throat trap could work, but Manda 2's summoning would bust that throat.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
You, Wakka, and who else?
Nephthys, who said he thought all the S+s would beat him ('cept maybe Mizukage).
As in between S and S+, or at the top of S? To be honest, I'd be okay with both right now.
Top of S.
Anyway, to those of you who want him to be S+- be patient! 🙂
I mean, he's still showing off abilities. I give it about a 50/50 change that he'll show something that'll clearly bump him by the end of the fight.