The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by psycho gundam
they asked for a justified kabuto bump which didn't even happen, yet that whole damned list was re-posted....

i'll just appoint myself chief editor of my own list (whch will include everything that moved in the manga, even "baka" crow from the filler eps) and subject you all to it every chance i get too 🙂

lol @ democracy

I definitely like Q99's list and I think it is generally quite accurate. I would not change much in her list, at all.

Well, I might move Minato up to SSS-* with the following clarification:

*Minato is an SSS- if he is fighting 1 v 1. He is the strongest and most powerful 1 v 1 character in the series...even stronger in a 1 v 1 match with the Great Sage.

And I would add this footnote for Konan:

Konan is an A. With years of prep, she is an S-.

I could go on, of course.

So, please, make your list. Start out your list one section at a time. Do the Es first or something. I do not see any reason why Q99 has to be privy to the only list in existence. I am sure she would not mind you making your own list, as well. I look forward to your list and I will provide honest/serious input.

i was being sarcastic about making a list, but if i did care to do it i'd at least make a separate thread for it

I too encourage you to make your own list! Nothing says mine has to be the only one. Heck, I actively encourage people making their own.

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Actually for Kabuto, let's solve this a traditional way-

Minato
Onoki
Itachi
Killer Bee
Second Mizukage
Naruto (with Kyuubi Chakra)

Which ones of these S+ types do each of you think he could beat, and why?

Well we'll see in regards to Itachi at least.

Other than that... none imo. Maybe the Mizukage.

Even with Itachi, he's down some of his best offense techniques in the manga- amaterasu and totsuka sword. Open those up, and...

Originally posted by Q99
I too encourage you to make your own list! Nothing says mine has to be the only one. Heck, I actively encourage people making their own.

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Actually for Kabuto, let's solve this a traditional way-

Minato
Onoki
Itachi
Killer Bee
Second Mizukage
Naruto (with Kyuubi Chakra)

Which ones of these S+ types do each of you think he could beat, and why?

I think he could beat Killer Bee and Naruto (just KCM).

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think he could beat Killer Bee and Naruto (just KCM).

Couldn't Killerbee just get him with a big area attack? And don't forget, lightning cancels out liquidification, and he's quite a bit more dangerous in melee than Sasuke.

I'd think a Rasenshuriken would be effective as well.

Originally posted by Q99
Couldn't Killerbee just get him with a big area attack? And don't forget, lightning cancels out liquidification, and he's quite a bit more dangerous in melee than Sasuke.

I'd think a Rasenshuriken would be effective as well.

I do not think a any massive explosion would be useful against Kabuto in this mode.

Yes, I think Kabuto could tank a biju-blast. Not sure if he would tank it with his direct body, however.

Kabuto is not really kill-able. A true liquid body like Suigetu's (from what we saw on panel) and Suigetsu tanked a biju blast.

It's like Kabuto has become the best of what Suigetsu is, what Oro was, he brings his expertise and high-level medical ninjutsu with him, and brings a sage-mode with him that makes him stronger than Sage Mode Naruto.

I do not see a Rasenshuriken doing anythng to a liquid body like Suigetsu's.

Kabuto is not really kill-able. A true liquid body like Suigetu's (from what we saw on panel) and Suigetsu tanked a biju blast.

He was knocked out of the fight by that, though. After one of those it'd be pretty easy to follow up on the kill.

And liquid *is* counterable with electricity.

*Edit* Oh, didn't Killerbee have an ink sealing jutsu too? That might work.

I do not see a Rasenshuriken doing anythng to a liquid body like Suigetsu's.

Blowing it apart/reducing it to tiny bits? And Naruto can do a lot of them.

Originally posted by Q99
He was knocked out of the fight by that, though.

Suigetus is not Kabuto. Kabuto is like a super-duper version of Oro.

Take Naruto's sage mode, take Oro's body and jutsus, take most of Tsuande's medical expertise, and take Suigetsus' liquid body form.

Mix that all into a person's body that knows almost as much as Oro and you have yourself our current Kabuto.

Originally posted by Q99
After one of those it'd be pretty easy to follow up on the kill.

I do not think we can make such an assessment as of yet. We do not know if Kabuto would be affected in the same way...but we do know that he is virtually impervious like Suigetsu.

Originally posted by Q99
And liquid *is* counterable with electricity.

And Kabuto has handled that just fine, thus far.

Originally posted by Q99
*Edit* Oh, didn't Killerbee have an ink sealing jutsu too? That might work.

But will he get that far with Kabuto? I don't think so.

I think Kabuto is upper S+. Below Minato and Itachi, of course.

Originally posted by Q99
Blowing it apart/reducing it to tiny bits? And Naruto can do a lot of them.

Seems like it would pass right through his body. It has very high cutting power.

Can Naruto remote detonate it? I don't think he can. He can remote expand it...but not remote detonate.

Suigetus is not Kabuto. Kabuto is like a super-duper version of Oro.

Take Naruto's sage mode, take Oro's body and jutsus, take most of Tsuande's medical expertise, and take Suigetsus' liquid body form.

Mix that all into a person's body that knows almost as much as Oro and you have yourself our current Kabuto.

I don't think *any* of that will prevent a Biju ball from being a KO shot.

Seems like it would pass right through his body. It has very high cutting power.

Can Naruto remote detonate it? I don't think he can. He can remote expand it...but not remote detonate.

He can shove it downward so it hits the ground and explodes, or do something like throw two so they meet in the middle and boom.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think *any* of that will prevent a Biju ball from being a KO shot.

I think *all* of that makes a bijuu ball KO improbable or even impossible.

Since Itachi and Sasuke consider Kabuto a high-level threat and Kabuto is supposed to be the big bad (even more powerful than 6 paths Tobi...according to Kabuto), we can err on the side of "kabuto is strong."

Originally posted by Q99
He can shove it downward so it hits the ground and explodes, or do something like throw two so they meet in the middle and boom.

I see you on the first one but keep in mind that Sage Mode Kabuto also has absurd reflexes and precision afforded to him. I see dodging or even running fast enough to get out of the way of the attack as being plausible. Naruto has to throw it from a distance far enough away that he does not end up in the blast radius.

As for your meet in the middle assessment, what does that even mean? "They" Who is they?

I think *all* of that makes a bijuu ball KO improbable or even impossible.

Water makes it survivable but in really bad shape when channeling a lot of water, sage increases durability some but not to near 'take biju ball level,' plus enhanced recovery, and Oro doesn't increase durability at all, it just increases regen. Ditto the medical jutsu.

Add those together and I see a lot of recovery powers but only a little that actually helps withstand the damage from a very big hit, pretty much only the water and sage. Considering the water on it's own, with a lot of water available, was an 'absolutely sure KO that left him bad shape for a long time afterwards,' I'm not seeing the 'biju ball won't KO' level of defense needed because the recovery jutsu don't prevent damage, just heal it.

Since Itachi and Sasuke consider Kabuto a high-level threat and Kabuto is supposed to be the big bad (even more powerful than 6 paths Tobi...according to Kabuto), we can err on the side of "kabuto is strong."

I don't think we have to err that much- we're seeing the fight after all, and he's been cut in this fight.

Also, remember that when referring to his own power, and his general threat level, he has Edo. Obviously he's a massive threat strategically.

Originally posted by Q99
Water makes it survivable but in really bad shape when channeling a lot of water, sage increases durability some but not to near 'take biju ball level,' plus enhanced recovery, and Oro doesn't increase durability at all, it just increases regen. Ditto the medical jutsu.

This sage made may or may not increase durability. We are dealing with a very fluid body and the white snake techs.

Originally posted by Q99
Add those together and I see a lot of recovery powers but only a little that actually helps withstand the damage from a very big hit, pretty much only the water and sage. Considering the water on it's own, with a lot of water available, was an 'absolutely sure KO that left him bad shape for a long time afterwards,' I'm not seeing the 'biju ball won't KO' level of defense needed because the recovery jutsu don't prevent damage, just heal it.

Add those together and you get an extremely good case for why a biju ball doesn't really do anything all to Kabuto.

We already have proof that it can be survived in a suigetsu form, alone. Now we have 2 other major abilities that would contribute to a much more positive out come: white snake regen and medical ninjtsu.

Then add in the fact that Kabuto can also collect natural energy/chakra and use sage mode.

At this point, you have convinced me that Kabuto can tank a biju blast. Suigetsu can and Kabuto is like suigetsu but we have every reason to believe kabuto would fair better against a biju blast.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think we have to err that much- we're seeing the fight after all, and he's been cut in this fight.

Well, keep in mind that you said "we do not have to err that much" when that = Kabuto is strong. So, yes, I do think we have to err that much. Kabuto is quite strong. He's got the best of Naruto, Oro, and suigetsu all rolled into one package. Then add in some of the best medical abilities in the naruto universe and we may be dealing with a character that is knocking on the SS- to SS door.

Originally posted by Q99
Also, remember that when referring to his own power, and his general threat level, he has Edo. Obviously he's a massive threat strategically.

Well...if you add in that, he is actually SSS+ and literally the most powerful character we know. He made and integrated senju cells into Madara in a "complete" form. The trump card very well may be the Great Sage. Let's wait and see.

But I move that Kabuto be moved to SS-, not S+.

Here's why: I think Minato and Itachi can beat anyone in the tiers above them if you remove CIS and/or PIS. Being able to beat someone or not does not indicate why someone should be in a tier or not.

Add those together and you get an extremely good case for why a biju ball doesn't really do anything all to Kabuto.

Again, I don't see how. White snake techniques don't add durability, after all.

Durability is what's needed to prevent a knock out, regen just heals the damage after. And even if a Biju ball only temporarily knocked him out... well, it's going to be followed up on, and he's going to lose when he can't defend himself.

We already have proof that it can be survived in a suigetsu form, alone. Now we have 2 other major abilities that would contribute to a much more positive out come: white snake regen and medical ninjtsu.

Yea, but those are after-the-fact ones. They're for recovering after knocked out (if it happens automatically). It wouldn't prevent the KO.

Well...if you add in that, he is actually SSS+ and literally the most powerful character we know. He made and integrated senju cells into Madara in a "complete" form. The trump card very well may be the Great Sage. Let's wait and see.

Edo already has a separate signifier to indicate it's great power that's separate from more direct might.

He's not just a S right now, he's an S*.

Originally posted by Q99
Again, I don't see how. White snake techniques don't add durability, after all.

I don't believe I ever argued this from a "solid like a diamond" approach. White snake is repair and restoration.

Originally posted by Q99
Durability is what's needed to prevent a knock out, regen just heals the damage after. And even if a Biju ball only temporarily knocked him out... well, it's going to be followed up on, and he's going to lose when he can't defend himself.

No, durability is not what is needed to prevent a knockout. Only the ability to bring one's self back together. White Snake seems to do just that.

And a "follow up" against nothing is not going to do anything.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, but those are after-the-fact ones. They're for recovering after knocked out (if it happens automatically). It wouldn't prevent the KO.

No, they are for recovering after having taken the attack, not recovering from a knockout. He would not be knocked out: only very shortly delayed.

Since Kabuto thinks himself better than even the likes of Tobi, we should err on the side of "strong against 7 bijuu" instead of counter-intuitively assuming kabuto would get knocked out from an attack he cold definitely tank.

Originally posted by Q99
Edo already has a separate signifier to indicate it's great power that's separate from more direct might.

He's not just a S right now, he's an S*.

Of course it does. I posit that we remove this limitation and go ahead and put him as SSS+*.

Additionally, without ET, I say we move to SS- to SS for Kabuto, not S+. You have not provided good enough counterarguments for why Kabuto would even need to be concerned about biju.

Kabuto should have the snake shedding technique that Orochimaru and Sasuke(Oro fused) had. That would allow him to escape something like Amaterasu, and Sage Mode will cover the chakra loss.

That said, I think Kabuto could beat 3rd Raikage/Sasuke with Complete Susano'o. And Jiraiya, who is the border into S+.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Kabuto should have the snake shedding technique that Orochimaru and Sasuke(Oro fused) had. That would allow him to escape something like Amaterasu, and Sage Mode will cover the chakra loss.

Really...that was probably Orochimaru's original interest into the sage arts: a sage mode that would allow him to continually use chakra.

Ur...what's with the S+ and SSS ratings for Kaubto? Sure he's durable and has a new Sage Mode but hasn't really done a whole lot with it. I mean he has an awesome genjutsu and can use a better from of Sage Naruto's Frog Kumite to manuever with his eyes close but he hasn't done anything that impressive.

Well I guess you could count Manda v2 in all of this but he's yet to use that either in a fight.

I also wonder how Kabuto is able to gather natural chakra w/o recharging?

No, durability is not what is needed to prevent a knockout. Only the ability to bring one's self back together. White Snake seems to do just that.

? Repair doesn't mean someone isn't knocked out in the first place.

A quick recovery from KO doesn't mean you weren't unconscious.

And a "follow up" against nothing is not going to do anything.

If he's out cold or otherwise badly rattled, then lightning flow swords prevent liquidification and keeps him stunned, white snake and medic require more active action, and Killerbee can just slice his head off.

Once he's not actively defending, even defenses like Kabuto's can be overcome pretty easily.

I also wonder how Kabuto is able to gather natural chakra w/o recharging?

Possibly he has whenever they pause, or possibly the snake attached to him is doing it.

Kabuto should have the snake shedding technique that Orochimaru and Sasuke(Oro fused) had. That would allow him to escape something like Amaterasu, and Sage Mode will cover the chakra loss.

It'd depend on how covered he was in amaterasu, wouldn't it?