The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by socool8520
And neither is Oro or the two kage.

I never discussed it. The fact is, no matter how good of a guy he is (if you want to call him that), he had a mission and he chose to bail over fighting Jiraiya. He certainly handled Kakashi just fine so I don't think the nice guy argument is valid.

And neither was Neji, Kiba, Pain, etc. Shadow Clones>

He killed Kakashi? No? Okay then. His excuse for not fighting Jiraiya makes perfect since if you use the good guy argument. He didn't want to fight Jiraiya seriously with Kisame because he doesn't really want Naruto to end up in Akatsuki's hands. That's probably why he wasted Tsukuyomi on Sasuke, so he could give Kisame a valid excuse to run away.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, when Naruto has spammed them and attempted to just bumrush his opponent theres a chance they'll all just be mooked. But Shadow Clone Shenanigans have been very effective when used cleverly. Have we even seen a shadow clone trap fail?

I see your point. But in that regard, I have never really seen anyone else except Naruto use Kage Bunshin regularly, or as effectively. I don't think it is out of the question for Hiruzen, but I can't recall him ever using it. If we follow that road then we have to assume several ninja can use them that haven't.

Originally posted by socool8520
You would be a d%$&, but correct you wouldn't be. What sir, has proven that Oro is greater than Jiraiya base mode? If we go with the whole 4 tails notion, which is what I assume we would go with, then the circumstances are like night and day. One sennin didn't want to kill Naruto and the other couldn't care less.

It's note one part of jiraiya's sage mode that would overcome Oro, it's the combination of all of the advantages in speed, strength, and taijutsu that would make him better than Oro. What crazy offensive manuever has shown that Oro is anything to deal with? I mean when he is not intimidating children. He has great durability, but that will only get you so far when you attacks only consist of a sword and some snake binds.

Gamabunta may, and I say may be weaker than Manda, but jiraiya's crew overall is greater than manda and some regular snakes imo.

Feats prove he is superior if we're looking at their base modes.

Yes, IMO he is better than Orochimaru if he's in Sage Mode. To the point where he could stomp Orochimaru? Highly unlikely. It's not like Orochimaru has no knowledge of Sage Mode either.
Orochimaru doesn't need anything crazy when he can cut off Jiraiya's head, or prep before-hand and use ET.
On the other hand, iirc, no physical tech that Jiraiya has would take out Orochimaru by virtue of Orochimaru's defences, durability and his back-up regeneration.

There's no 'may'. Gamabunta IS weaker than Manda in a battle between the two; Manda would be able to handle 2 Giant Toads. While Jiraiya's crew has more named members with skills, Orochimaru's crew are far greater in number. Swamp Tech won't be taking all of them out.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And neither was Neji, Kiba, Pain, etc. Shadow Clones>

Greatest use of clones IYO?

Spoiler:
Madara trolling the Kages?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And neither was Neji, Kiba, Pain, etc. Shadow Clones>

He killed Kakashi? No? Okay then. His excuse for not fighting Jiraiya makes perfect since if you use the good guy argument. He didn't want to fight Jiraiya seriously with Kisame because he doesn't really want Naruto to end up in Akatsuki's hands. That's probably why he wasted Tsukuyomi on Sasuke, so he could give Kisame a valid excuse to run away.

So Nejii and Kiba are now as intelligent as Oro? That's a stretch. I can see where you are going with Pain to some degree, however, who has used kage bunshin effectively other Naruto?

No he didn't kill Kakashi, but a coma isn't exactly nice guy is it? Plus Gai showed up, and Itachi didn't want to deal with the fight after his weakened state as I recall.

The second part of that paragraph doesn't make sense. He had every intention of capturing Naruto and even made no attempts to stop Kisame from hacking Naruto's legs off. Not too mention he seemed confident that jiraiya's lady weakness would allow them to capture Naruto. When that went sour, he retreated. If he truly needed a cop out for nice guy's sake, then he could have retreated on the premise that he was too fatigued after using tsukiyomi on Kakashi.

Originally posted by socool8520
So Nejii and Kiba are now as intelligent as Oro? That's a stretch. I can see where you are going with Pain to some degree, however, who has used kage bunshin effectively other Naruto?

No he didn't kill Kakashi, but a coma isn't exactly nice guy is it? Plus Gai showed up, and Itachi didn't want to deal with the fight after his weakened state as I recall.

The second part of that paragraph doesn't make sense. He had every intention of capturing Naruto and even made no attempts to stop Kisame from hacking Naruto's legs off. Not too mention he seemed confident that jiraiya's lady weakness would allow them to capture Naruto. When that went sour, he retreated. If he truly needed a cop out for nice guy's sake, then he could have retreated on the premise that he was too fatigued after using tsukiyomi on Kakashi.

They are not unintelligent is the point. And who else? Konohamaru, Kakashi, Orochimaru, Zabuza. Naruto does not have a monopoly on using clones intelligently.

Itachi doesn't want to be a nice guy. Guy showing up was again a good reason for leaving.

So what you're saying is, Itachi, the guy who packs more high powered jutsu than most people(Jiraiya included) was scared to fight Jiraiya with his partner Kisame, who also holds a decent amount of power in his own right? Said Itachi also being a good guy that goes out of his way to HELP Naruto in the past and has never had wavering loyalty against Konoha.

Yeah no, that doesn't work. Itachi has the perfect in character reason for not going after Naruto and leaving Jiraiya to keep protecting him. Him not catching Naruto is perfectly in character with Itachi's later actions in the series. He probably didn't fight Jiraiya because it was a nigh impossible(based on showings Jiraiya would lose anyway) but because he didn't want to.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Feats prove he is superior if we're looking at their base modes.

I don't agree.

Yes, IMO he is better than Orochimaru if he's in Sage Mode. To the point where he could stomp Orochimaru? Highly unlikely. It's not like Orochimaru has no knowledge of Sage Mode either.
Orochimaru doesn't need anything crazy when he can cut off Jiraiya's head, or prep before-hand and use ET.
On the other hand, iirc, no physical tech that Jiraiya has would take out Orochimaru by virtue of Orochimaru's defences, durability and his back-up regeneration.

He has knowledge of sage mode but that doesn't mean he can completely defend it. It would still make Oro outmatched in sped and strength since he can't do it. Now we are talking prep? Then I guess jiraiya could have some seals handy as well. And how does he cut off jiraiya's head? He will be somewhat slower and weaker in strength in my opinion, so getting the chance to cut off his head seems slim. If that's all it took, then why didn't he do it in the three sennin battle. He doesn't need his arms for that. Toad stomach bind (and he doesn't even need to be in sage mode for this), will destroy said regen. Oro doesn't have black flames that I know of.

There's no 'may'. Gamabunta IS weaker than Manda in a battle between the two; Manda would be able to handle 2 Giant Toads. While Jiraiya's crew has more named members with skills, Orochimaru's crew are far greater in number. Swamp Tech won't be taking all of them out.

Swamp tech handles alot. Not all, but alot. And that was a weak weak swamp tech due to the poison from Tsunade. Plus there is no guarantee that Manda handles two toads. The slug was very limited in offense if you are referring to Manda handling business against Gam and the slug. The Samurai toad would be more effective imo.

Greatest use of clones IYO?

Clever wise would be pretty much any way naruto has used them as a diversion. Zabuza, Kakazu, nejii, and Kiba come to mind. Power wise, I would say it's a toss up between naruto's mass giant rasengans to cancel out Madara's mokuton/damaging Kurama, or Madaras's Susano'o clones.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
They are not unintelligent is the point. And who else? Konohamaru, Kakashi, Orochimaru, Zabuza. Naruto does not have a monopoly on using clones intelligently.

Never said they weren't. Just not on a Kage level at their young age. Had it been Shikamaru, I could go along with your reasoning. Neither one of these characters have won a battle due to their cleverness with clones that I can think of besides Naruto.

Itachi doesn't want to be a nice guy. Guy showing up was again a good reason for leaving.

Wait....So he doesn't want to be nice to Kakashi but he does want to be with Jiraiya?

So what you're saying is, Itachi, the guy who packs more high powered jutsu than most people(Jiraiya included) was scared to fight Jiraiya with his partner Kisame, who also holds a decent amount of power in his own right? Said Itachi also being a good guy that goes out of his way to HELP Naruto in the past and has never had wavering loyalty against Konoha.

I'm not just saying it. The manga has shown it. It happened. The whole thing you said about "why would they run if he had Kisame and his later feats," is the reason why I think it's ridiculous they did run. Besides, as far as I can tell, Itachi didn't give a damn about Naruto until he found out he was trying to save his brother. That's why I don't think your in character theory works. See your above point for the nice guy thing.

Originally posted by socool8520
I don't agree.

You may think that Base Jiraiya is > Base Orochimaru, but correct you wouldn't be.

Originally posted by socool8520
He has knowledge of sage mode but that doesn't mean he can completely defend it. It would still make Oro outmatched in sped and strength since he can't do it. Now we are talking prep? Then I guess jiraiya could have some seals handy as well. And how does he cut off jiraiya's head? He will be somewhat slower and weaker in strength in my opinion, so getting the chance to cut off his head seems slim. If that's all it took, then why didn't he do it in the three sennin battle. He doesn't need his arms for that. Toad stomach bind (and he doesn't even need to be in sage mode for this), will destroy said regen. Oro doesn't have black flames that I know of.

Him having knowledge of Sage Mode means he won't be overwhelmed and trying to figure out just WTF is going on.
He can have as many seals handy as he wants. His on-screen usage of sealing techs won't do much against regenerating ninjas that would overwhelm him.
Jiraiya doesn't have KN4 durability. He'll get cut, or decapitated if he gets hit by the sword. As for why he didn't do it in the Sannin Battle, he didn't feel the need to, as Jiraiya was more or less incapacitated.
Toad stomach bind won't work unless he's in a tight corridor. Not to mention, summoning Manda or a sufficiently sized snake would destroy the oesophagus.

Originally posted by socool8520
Swamp tech handles alot. Not all, but alot. And that was a weak weak swamp tech due to the poison from Tsunade. Plus there is no guarantee that Manda handles two toads. The slug was very limited in offense if you are referring to Manda handling business against Gam and the slug. The Samurai toad would be more effective imo.

The Slug could melt rocks easily and with a pretty fast attack. While she was limited in offense, she had a very powerful one.
Samurai Toad is weaker than Gamabunta.

Originally posted by socool8520
Clever wise would be pretty much any way naruto has used them as a diversion. Zabuza, Kakazu, nejii, and Kiba come to mind. Power wise, I would say it's a toss up between naruto's mass giant rasengans to cancel out Madara's mokuton/damaging Kurama, or Madaras's Susano'o clones.

I'd have to say Naruto's usage of the Shadow Clone against Neji. Was clever, and had plot significance as well.

Madara's usage of clones was deelish though.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Greatest use of clones IYO?

Naruto forming a giant pillar to clones, grabbing Sasuke by the ankles and smashing him into a cliff in some bizzare whip-like motion.

YouTube video

6.10

Its just fvcking insane! haermm

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
You may think that Base Jiraiya is > Base Orochimaru, but correct you wouldn't be.

I see what you did there. lol. Not saying his is better, more like even. Which is why I think Jiraiya's SM makes Jiraiya>Oro

Him having knowledge of Sage Mode means he won't be overwhelmed and trying to figure out just WTF is going on.
He can have as many seals handy as he wants. His on-screen usage of sealing techs won't do much against regenerating ninjas that would overwhelm him.
Jiraiya doesn't have KN4 durability. He'll get cut, or decapitated if he gets hit by the sword. As for why he didn't do it in the Sannin Battle, he didn't feel the need to, as Jiraiya was more or less incapacitated.
Toad stomach bind won't work unless he's in a tight corridor. Not to mention, summoning Manda or a sufficiently sized snake would destroy the oesophagus.

It won't be the lack of knowledge that overwhelms him, it will be the speed and strength difference in SM. Not to mention mention the genjutsu that everyone on these boards seems to think so highly of will put Oro at a disadvantage.
I don't doubt that Jiraiya will be cut during the battle. Oro not a pushover, but a beheading is pushing it imo.
The ET tech is iffy. We don't know how many people Oro had on call. Kabuto had to search for those people himself as I recall. Oro only had the two kages, and they were sealed.
It's kinda odd that Oro wouldn't feel the need to kill Jiraiya and yet felt the need to kill naruto. lol As dangerous as Naruto did become, Jiraiya was a much more immediate threat to Oro.
Also how does a giant snake destroy the esophagus? Jiraiya claimed that the only thing that has escaped this tech was the black flames which Oro doesn't have.

Madara's usage of clones was deelish though.

It is impressive, but in all honesty, what has he done that hasn't been over the top?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
One of 'em. My favorite is Tobi.

I just came across this again. with his limited back story, what makes him you're favorite? Not hating, just curious. One of the reasons Minato is not in my top 2 is because his back story really hasn't been fleshed out.

Originally posted by socool8520
Never said they weren't. Just not on a Kage level at their young age. Had it been Shikamaru, I could go along with your reasoning. Neither one of these characters have won a battle due to their cleverness with clones that I can think of besides Naruto.

Neither was their opponent. And actually, all of them did. Depends on whether you consider Zabuza trapping Kakashi to be a victory. I do really.

Originally posted by socool8520
Wait....So he doesn't want to be nice to Kakashi but he does want to be with Jiraiya?

He wasn't nice to any of them. Tell me, who would you rather fake a fight with, Kakashi or Jiraiya? The former can't really do anything to Itachi and the latter stands a good chance of beating him if he doesn't take things seriously.

Originally posted by socool8520
I'm not just saying it. The manga has shown it. It happened. The whole thing you said about "why would they run if he had Kisame and his later feats," is the reason why I think it's ridiculous they did run. Besides, as far as I can tell, Itachi didn't give a damn about Naruto until he found out he was trying to save his brother. That's why I don't think your in character theory works. See your above point for the nice guy thing.

If Itachi wanted to capture Naruto, he could have done so when he ran into him in the woods. And there is no reason to disagree with it. Itachi is a genius and he'd have control of the situation all while acting like a bwahahahahaha villain. The facts remain that Itachi is a good guy that acted like a bad guy. Him abandoning the fight with Jiraiya when he and Kisame really could honestly beat him is an example. Him helping Naruto to stop Sasuke when he so could have easily just captured Naruto is another example.

Originally posted by socool8520
I just came across this again. with his limited back story, what makes him you're favorite? Not hating, just curious. One of the reasons Minato is not in my top 2 is because his back story really hasn't been fleshed out.

Good backstory doesn't equal a good character. Example, Hinata.

To answer your question though, Tobi has a lot of traits I like in the villain. He has a really good ability but it's not as hilariously broken as Aizen's. It also requires more intelligence on his part to use. Along with that, I enjoy how he's been using the Akatsuki. A lot of people dislike Tobi for not doing much but I think that's more or less the point: A manipulator shouldn't need or want to get into fights themselves. It makes their manipulation seem pointless.

The best thing about Tobi though is how he twists the audiences reactions. When we're first introduced to Tobi, it's not hard to see something is up. I don't think anyone was surprised by the Sharingan but I do think him being Madara was a surprise. And all the while you get this nagging suspicion like "Why is he still wearing the mask? We already know what Madara looks like..." But given the knowledge he has of the Uchiha, Senju, Itachi, and how characters like the Kage, Itachi, and Minato assume he has to be Madara, we set that doubt aside. And then there was the Coffin, raising suspicion like Kishi does...and then the reveal. Now we don't know who Tobi is at all, except that he has a past with Madara, and we don't know what he is planning. Only that it involves Sasuke, the only real constant he has had. It's creepy. And awesome.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Neither was their opponent. And actually, all of them did. Depends on whether you consider Zabuza trapping Kakashi to be a victory. I do really.

This doesn't make my point any less valid. Children can fool children. I believe the whole chakra into the water thing helped Zabuza gain the upper hand in that fight, not the clones. Kakashi made a clueless mistake (PIS I think just to show the teamwork of Sasuke/Naruto) on Kakashi's part.

He wasn't nice to any of them. Tell me, who would you rather fake a fight with, Kakashi or Jiraiya? The former can't really do anything to Itachi and the latter stands a good chance of beating him if he doesn't take things seriously.

In your line of reasoning he was rather nice to Jiraiya. One person was comatose, the other made them run away. Why must it be fake? Even you admit to some degree that Jiraiya stood a chance. I believe he pulls out a W or Itachi would have stood his ground. I would have liked to have seen that fight personally.

If Itachi wanted to capture Naruto, he could have done so when he ran into him in the woods. And there is no reason to disagree with it. Itachi is a genius and he'd have control of the situation all while acting like a bwahahahahaha villain. The facts remain that Itachi is a good guy that acted like a bad guy. Him abandoning the fight with Jiraiya when he and Kisame really could honestly beat him is an example. Him helping Naruto to stop Sasuke when he so could have easily just captured Naruto is another example.

In that instance, power/skill wise, he certainly could have. But, was this not the time that Itachi found out that Naruto wanted to help Sasuke? Had Naruto had the intention of killing sasuke, the manga could have ended right there. For Naruto at least. His love for his brother spared Naruto imo opinion, not Itachi being "a nice guy".

Good backstory doesn't equal a good character. Example, Hinata.

To answer your question though, Tobi has a lot of traits I like in the villain. He has a really good ability but it's not as hilariously broken as Aizen's. It also requires more intelligence on his part to use. Along with that, I enjoy how he's been using the Akatsuki. A lot of people dislike Tobi for not doing much but I think that's more or less the point: A manipulator shouldn't need or want to get into fights themselves. It makes their manipulation seem pointless.

The best thing about Tobi though is how he twists the audiences reactions. When we're first introduced to Tobi, it's not hard to see something is up. I don't think anyone was surprised by the Sharingan but I do think him being Madara was a surprise. And all the while you get this nagging suspicion like "Why is he still wearing the mask? We already know what Madara looks like..." But given the knowledge he has of the Uchiha, Senju, Itachi, and how characters like the Kage, Itachi, and Minato assume he has to be Madara, we set that doubt aside. And then there was the Coffin, raising suspicion like Kishi does...and then the reveal. Now we don't know who Tobi is at all, except that he has a past with Madara, and we don't know what he is planning. Only that it involves Sasuke, the only real constant he has had. It's creepy. And awesome.

I disagree on the Hinata example. I believe the very limited back story on her helps to emphasize why she is the way she is. I happen to like her character though. Someone who is thought as weak but tries hard to excel makes me root for her much like I root for my fav character Naruto. I can respect your reason for liking Tobi, and to be honest, I am intrigued to find out who he is. (even though Really I just want naruto to kick his a$# already.) lol. He has made a more interesting villain then say, the one upper, Madara.

Originally posted by socool8520
This doesn't make my point any less valid. Children can fool children. I believe the whole chakra into the water thing helped Zabuza gain the upper hand in that fight, not the clones. Kakashi made a clueless mistake (PIS I think just to show the teamwork of Sasuke/Naruto) on Kakashi's part.

Children can also fool adults in the series. See Zabuza fight and Pain fight.

Originally posted by socool8520
In your line of reasoning he was rather nice to Jiraiya. One person was comatose, the other made them run away. Why must it be fake? Even you admit to some degree that Jiraiya stood a chance. I believe he pulls out a W or Itachi would have stood his ground. I would have liked to have seen that fight personally.

Of course Jiraiya stands a chance against Itachi(particularly with him being weaker). Itachi and Kisame? Eh...honestly, one of them would probably end up dead but so would Jiraiya. It could also be argued I've come to realize that Itachi's body was indeed riddled with sickness and, well, he probably wouldn't want to strain it in such a fight. Alternate explanation I guess.

Originally posted by socool8520
In that instance, power/skill wise, he certainly could have. But, was this not the time that Itachi found out that Naruto wanted to help Sasuke? Had Naruto had the intention of killing sasuke, the manga could have ended right there. For Naruto at least. His love for his brother spared Naruto imo opinion, not Itachi being "a nice guy".

Itachi prioritizes protecting Konoha above everything except Sasuke(and even then, honestly it seems like Itachi still puts it above him).

Originally posted by socool8520
I disagree on the Hinata example. I believe the very limited back story on her helps to emphasize why she is the way she is. I happen to like her character though. Someone who is thought as weak but tries hard to excel makes me root for her much like I root for my fav character Naruto. I can respect your reason for liking Tobi, and to be honest, I am intrigued to find out who he is. (even though Really I just want naruto to kick his a$# already.) lol. He has made a more interesting villain then say, the one upper, Madara.

Hinata's backstory is good. Hinata herself? Eh....not so much. Her crush on Naruto is rather extreme and keeps the audience mostly in the dark on her opinions of others. She's determined sure...but so are Lee, Naruto, Neji, Sasuke, Choji, Sakura...and she comparatively has less to offer when stacked against them. Really when the manga went into Sasuke's backstory, it basically was Hinata's(no talent ninja with daddy issues and better sibling) just better. Helps that Sasuke was already an interesting character to begin with though(love him or hate him, Sasuke can never really be called forgettable like Hinata can be at times).

Its hard to forget a character that gets thrown at you all the time during the series. Unless you don't read it 😉

Originally posted by Bentley
Its hard to forget a character that gets thrown at you all the time during the series. Unless you don't read it 😉

Not really. For comparisons sake, Sango of Kekkaishi is a major character and I often find myself forgetting about him. Because he is boring. O:

Or Sakura. I honestly can't remember what she's doing at the moment.

She's running somewhere. Fun times.

Oh. It's always good to check in on the impact she's having in the story. Being one of the main characters and everything.

Indeed...if there is one area where One Piece and Bleach easily outshine Naruto, it would definitely be with the female characters.

And I like Sakura. :T