The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well I mean, if I ignore that then that means Sasuke>Itachi for quite a while. 313

Not really. That line of reasoning also seems to suggest that Hiruzen lacks the power to break the barrier while the others don't, which still leads to him being weaker. Granted, that's assuming the barrier is breakable.

Negative...He was at a disadvantage from the moment they were re-incarnated. He couldn't focus on the barrier and block their attacks at the same time. I mean he's BA, but I don't think he's that BA. lol Naruto could have done, or Minato. lol But Hiruzen. nah

Originally posted by socool8520
Negative...He was at a disadvantage from the moment they were re-incarnated. He couldn't focus on the barrier and block their attacks at the same time. I mean he's BA, but I don't think he's that BA. lol Naruto could have done, or Minato. lol But Hiruzen. nah

Breaking the barrier would take priority over the fight.

I would agree...save for him getting killed before he has the chance by two extremely powerful ninjas.

Originally posted by socool8520
I would agree...save for him getting killed before he has the chance by two extremely powerful ninjas.

Because they never let up with their vicious assault.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Because they never let up with their vicious assault.

Yes...I guess we must assume that they and Oro would be dumb enough to let Hiruzen break the barrier without any intervention. Three intelligent ninja? C'mon...

You mean like the three intelligent ninja let Sarutobi run up and hug them?

Even the other re-incarnated ninja were sentimental...but at the end of the day what did they do? Oh that's right, whatever their summoner wanted them to. Like kill Hiruzen, or get sealed trying. lol

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Interesting....

Granted, I do not appreciate the Hiruzen being called the strongest ninja to date, mostly cause it's lolwrong.

Old-ass Hiruzen. Certainly not.

Hiruzen in his Prime. There's a possibility he's stronger than any other Kage. Though with the way Hashirama's stock has recently risen dramatically to the point where he could make all 5 of the current Kage look like chumps...

Originally posted by socool8520
Please...Jiraiya owns Oro. Jiraiya has sage mode that puts his strength , speed, and taijutsu above Oro. He has way better offensive techs. The toad binding stomach, swamp/quicksand jutsu, collab techs, multiple BA summons (I know Oro can summon several snakes but the only one I remember being strong on the level of Gamabunta was Manda). Jiraiya has Gam, Ma & Pa, and the samarai toad. And all of them except Samurai have long range techs. Ma and Pa can use genjutsu. Oro loses if they go all out imo

Jiraiya's Sage Mode strength edge means nothing when he's still weaker in terms of striking strength than Tsunade, someone who couldn't cause any major damage to Orochimaru.
Jiraiya's Sage Mode speed edge isn't something that would overcome Orochimaru. Same goes for his Taijutsu edge in SM.
Manda has already proven himself to be superior to Gamabunta.
Ma & Pa can use a genjutsu that has a start-up. One that will leave them wide open to a counter unless Jiraiya hides. Uber tech though.
Jiraiya's probably better than Orochimaru in Sage Mode, but nowhere near the point where he'd be able to own him.

I could simply be a d*** and say that Orochimaru won't even let Jiraiya enter Sage Mode, seeing as Orochimaru is superior to Jiraiya in base mode.

Originally posted by socool8520
Even the other re-incarnated ninja were sentimental...but at the end of the day what did they do? Oh that's right, whatever their summoner wanted them to. Like kill Hiruzen, or get sealed trying. lol

That doesn't detract from the point. If Hiruzen had the ability to break the barrier(this is assuming he possess a technique with the power to do so and that the barrier powered by four different people is breakable at all), there is no reason why he wouldn't do it. Enma and shadow clones would have provided him with enough of a distraction to do so.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Old-ass Hiruzen. Certainly not.

Hiruzen in his Prime. There's a possibility he's stronger than any other Kage. Though with the way Hashirama's stock has recently risen dramatically to the point where he could make all 5 of the current Kage look like chumps...

Jiraiya's Sage Mode strength edge means nothing when he's still weaker in terms of striking strength than Tsunade, someone who couldn't cause any major damage to Orochimaru.
Jiraiya's Sage Mode speed edge isn't something that would overcome Orochimaru. Same goes for his Taijutsu edge in SM.
Manda has already proven himself to be superior to Gamabunta.
Ma & Pa can use a genjutsu that has a start-up. One that will leave them wide open to a counter unless Jiraiya hides. Uber tech though.
Jiraiya's probably better than Orochimaru in Sage Mode, but nowhere near the point where he'd be able to own him.

I could simply be a d*** and say that Orochimaru won't even let Jiraiya enter Sage Mode, seeing as Orochimaru is superior to Jiraiya in base mode.

You would be a d%$&, but correct you wouldn't be. What sir, has proven that Oro is greater than Jiraiya base mode? If we go with the whole 4 tails notion, which is what I assume we would go with, then the circumstances are like night and day. One sennin didn't want to kill Naruto and the other couldn't care less.

It's note one part of jiraiya's sage mode that would overcome Oro, it's the combination of all of the advantages in speed, strength, and taijutsu that would make him better than Oro. What crazy offensive manuever has shown that Oro is anything to deal with? I mean when he is not intimidating children. He has great durability, but that will only get you so far when you attacks only consist of a sword and some snake binds.

Gamabunta may, and I say may be weaker than Manda, but jiraiya's crew overall is greater than manda and some regular snakes imo.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
That doesn't detract from the point. If Hiruzen had the ability to break the barrier(this is assuming he possess a technique with the power to do so and that the barrier powered by four different people is breakable at all), there is no reason why he wouldn't do it. Enma and shadow clones would have provided him with enough of a distraction to do so.

Against high level ninjas? I'll have to read the manga again cuz I don't remember Hiruzen spamming clones. And wasn't Enma used solely due to the fact that Hiruzen was having trouble with the kages? not much of a distraction, more like a survival move. Which is perfectly warranted given his opponents.

If we go off of the fact that no one there could have broken the seal, then my original point was valid about the confines and limitations to said techs in the first place. lol

Originally posted by socool8520
Against high level ninjas? I'll have to read the manga again cuz I don't remember Hiruzen spamming clones. And wasn't Enma used solely due to the fact that Hiruzen was having trouble with the kages? not much of a distraction, more like a survival move. Which is perfectly warranted given his opponents.

If we go off of the fact that no one there could have broken the seal, then my original point was valid about the confines and limitations to said techs in the first place. lol

Why yes. He managed to tag them with explosive tags so distracting them(or really, one of them since Orochimaru controls them) with clones doesn't seem impossible.

Your argument was that they could raise their powers but didn't because they didn't want to break the barrier. Hiruzen is not limited by that(he'd want it destroyed) so that doesn't apply to him. And if they were fighting weaker than usual(and in Hashirama's case, he definitely was), then Hiruzen did not beat full powered versions anyway.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Why yes. He managed to tag them with explosive tags so distracting them(or really, one of them since Orochimaru controls them) with clones doesn't seem impossible.

Your argument was that they could raise their powers but didn't because they didn't want to break the barrier. Hiruzen is not limited by that(he'd want it destroyed) so that doesn't apply to him. And if they were fighting weaker than usual(and in Hashirama's case, he definitely was), then Hiruzen did not beat full powered versions anyway.

It's not impossible, but i think it's highly unlikely that he distracts three BA ninjas, and thern has enough time to break a barrier without being further attacked is all I'm saying.

Honestly, the two kages were probably scaling back their attacks. But hiruzen was having to match two individuals attacks at the same time, and they were both legendary. The fact that he was able to seal them and still hold his own with Oro for as long as he did is enough for me to warrant him as one of the strongest of his time. To think that he could do that and have the power to break the barrier at the same time would more than warrant him being well above the living ninjas current besides resurrected Madara and current Naruto.

Originally posted by socool8520
It's not impossible, but i think it's highly unlikely that he distracts three BA ninjas, and thern has enough time to break a barrier without being further attacked is all I'm saying.

Honestly, the two kages were probably scaling back their attacks. But hiruzen was having to match two individuals attacks at the same time, and they were both legendary. The fact that he was able to seal them and still hold his own with Oro for as long as he did is enough for me to warrant him as one of the strongest of his time. To think that he could do that and have the power to break the barrier at the same time would more than warrant him being well above the living ninjas current besides resurrected Madara and current Naruto.

Konohamaru distracting Pain seemed impossible but it happened. The Shadow Clone is the single most effective technique in the series. He could do it...if you believe he had the power to bust the barrier. He never showed such power so I don't.

Of his time? He wouldn't be able to beat Danzo with his onscreen feats imo. And several characters could have done much better in that position, the most obvious being Itachi.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Konohamaru distracting Pain seemed impossible but it happened. The Shadow Clone is the single most effective technique in the series. He could do it...if you believe he had the power to bust the barrier. He never showed such power so I don't.

Of his time? He wouldn't be able to beat Danzo with his onscreen feats imo. And several characters could have done much better in that position, the most obvious being Itachi.

The shadow clone has also been owned too. kimimaro punked it for instance.

We already know that he was better than Danzou. Knowing Danzou, if he were more powerful than Hiruzen, don't you think he would have seized the power after Oro experimented on him? not too mention he pretty much had the Anbu brainwashed. We only got to see a little of what Hiruzen was capable of. I'm sure the man with the knowlegde of almost all jutsu would have had a defense for whatever Danzou dished out. I mean Danzou lost to a simple genjutsu after all.

Itachi, well, I wonder about that. Someone who had to bail out of a fight with jiraiya, even though he had Kisame, doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that would defeat hiruzen. People like to say he had just fought Kakshi and Co. but did it ever say how much time had elapsed?

Originally posted by socool8520
The shadow clone has also been owned too. kimimaro punked it for instance.

We already know that he was better than Danzou. Knowing Danzou, if he were more powerful than Hiruzen, don't you think he would have seized the power after Oro experimented on him? not too mention he pretty much had the Anbu brainwashed. We only got to see a little of what Hiruzen was capable of. I'm sure the man with the knowlegde of almost all jutsu would have had a defense for whatever Danzou dished out. I mean Danzou lost to a simple genjutsu after all.

Itachi, well, I wonder about that. Someone who had to bail out of a fight with jiraiya, even though he had Kisame, doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that would defeat hiruzen. People like to say he had just fought Kakshi and Co. but did it ever say how much time had elapsed?

When used stupidly, Shadow Clones are a waste. Hiruzen is not stupid...(usually).

Because Danzo likes to be an idiot in secrecy. Going by by showings though, he'd stomp Hiruzen.

Been discussed before: Itachi was a good guy and wouldn't want to fight Jiraiya. Of course he would run away. Based on showings, Itachi is better than Jiraiya.

Naruto during the Chunin exams provided good use of Shadow Clones. Dude was great at using fake outs to win fights he probably shouldn't.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
When used stupidly, Shadow Clones are a waste. Hiruzen is not stupid...(usually).

Because Danzo likes to be an idiot in secrecy. Going by by showings though, he'd stomp Hiruzen.

Been discussed before: Itachi was a good guy and wouldn't want to fight Jiraiya. Of course he would run away. Based on showings, Itachi is better than Jiraiya.

And neither is Oro or the two kage.

Agree to disagree I guess.

I never discussed it. The fact is, no matter how good of a guy he is (if you want to call him that), he had a mission and he chose to bail over fighting Jiraiya. He certainly handled Kakashi just fine so I don't think the nice guy argument is valid.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Naruto during the Chunin exams provided good use of Shadow Clones. Dude was great at using fake outs to win fights he probably shouldn't.

We have to look at the competition though. Both Kiba and Nejii were egotistical douches for the most part. The shadow clones were effective against the mist ninjas though, I'll give you that. However, spamming them hasn't always worked against good ninja.

Yes, when Naruto has spammed them and attempted to just bumrush his opponent theres a chance they'll all just be mooked. But Shadow Clone Shenanigans have been very effective when used cleverly. Have we even seen a shadow clone trap fail?