Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
According to the databook, Kiba as of databook 3 had a speed rating of 4.5That's a little surprising. Sasuke and Kakashi's databook 3 speed ratings are 4.5
Kiba's thing is speed. Remember how much faster he was than Naruto when they fought.
However, unlike Sasuke and Lee, the purpose of his speed is basically to max out hitting power in a rush, and he doesn't have the precision they do. Note his taijutsu is a mere 3 even post-timeskip.
Special Jonin have Jonin level abilities in a specific area. So that means that Jonin is a well-rounded ninja.
Seems to be in general the case. Even Kurenai's got great HtH stats. Though some special jonins are generalists.
Apparently Kabuto's mom is a jonin. I'm wondering if she should be bumped up to at least the Bs (that is to say, special jonin level)....
Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, it most directly and explicitly is not irrelevant for the reason I outlined, already.Any academy student can do that, too: "Hashirama and Madara fought each other and VotE and Hashirama won." See, no actual knowledge required. 😐
Funny. Choza went to that academy and yet he seemed pretty amazed at how strong Dan considered Madara.
And it's funny how the guy who defeated Madara Uchiha, the guy who plays games with 5 Kage when he can clearly kill them with ease, is still for whatever reason considered by you to be a normal Kage.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I am having a hard time understanding your point. Are you trying to prove my point?"There aren't any ninjas on the same level of the First Hokage Senju Hashirama [b]anymore
."3Why?
Hiruzen and Minato are dead.[/B]
1. You're holding them up to Hashirama's standard, somehow saying they surpassed him(when they have pitiful showings in comparison).
2. It can be argued that Kabuto even includes them in that statement.
3. Hashirama defeated both the Mountain Busting Madara and the Mountain Busting Kyuubi. Hiruzen, with the whole of his village behind him, could not do anything to the Kyuubi but push it out the village. He was helpless. And don't give me that "But he was old" excuse. If you're honestly going to put Hiruzen's undefined Prime(the only thing I know about him in his prime is that he was stronger than Tobirama, the weakest Hokage...and even that requires me to take his word for it) above Hashirama, the guy who has legitimately done legendary feats in the past, then I'll yell or something. And Minato did only slightly better than Hiruzen with regards to the Kyuubi(and still needed his wife's help).
Originally posted by dadudemon
The experiment was not "done" because Yamato was an incomplete clone. Yamato is also well over 20. Do not forget that it was cells bonded do Madara, not the other way around.Here is the proper response to what I said (shit, man, you're making me properly argue against myself):
"No, dadudemon, you failed to understand what the reasons were. Hashirama could not be used because his soul was sealed into the Shinigami by Hiruzen. Oro and Kabuto had no choice but to use Madara as the template and infuse cells into Madara's Edo Tensei body, not put Madara's eyes into Hashirama's body. Cloning Hashirama's body would not have given them Hashirama's experience, skill, training, intuition, etc."
If you would have said that, I would have conceded the point.
It was done. Orochimaru wanted to see if you could implant Senju cells to gain his powers. For the longest time the answer was no. After Yamamoto showed up, the success rate was a 1 in 60 chance. Done as done can be.
And why would I go into a big tangent on why Hashirama couldn't be summoned?
Originally posted by dadudemon
You want a source for that?Thought I provided that last time with a page number and everything.
First databook, page 265.
I do not own the databook nor do I know where there is a source online(have looked) so that page number isn't helpful.
Originally posted by dadudemon
There were plenty of people that could make massive changes to the landscape. Gamabunta is one of them. Naruto, hulking out, is another. Tsunade definitely could.B definitely could.
Nagato definitely could. I would assume Itachi could have with his Susano'o.
Any Jinchuriki with decent control could have.
Gamabunta has never sliced through mountains, Naruto could, Tsunade couldn't. Bee could, Nagato could(not as casually though), Itachi has never shown the ability to cause that much damage.
And of course...Madara compares his sword to the power of the Bijuu.
Originally posted by dadudemon
And, the fact that Madara literally has not seen Hiruzen and Minato, or is even aware of them, kind of does invalidate his point about Hashirama."Hey, Madara. Hiruzen, as an old man, who was considered 'pitiful' compared to his prime, took on a kage level opponent, Hashirama, and Tobirama....and ended it against those three in a virtual stalemate. Suck it."
It doesn't. Madara honestly would not give a shit if Hiruzen and Minato were fighting with the 5 Kage. Because Hashirama is more impressive than both of them combined.
Because we all know: That fight definitely caused the map to be redrawn...
And done.
"(...), was called the strongest of all the Hokage"
Not much by itself, especially if its only from Iruka's mouth. Actually can someone translate the quote? " 三代目は　特に歴代の中でも最強と言われポロフェッサーと呼ばれた天才だったんだぞ！" Because I dont see the word 'hokage' there..
"Hey, Madara. Hiruzen, as an old man, who was considered 'pitiful' compared to his prime, took on a kage level opponent, Hashirama, and Tobirama....and ended it against those three in a virtual stalemate. Suck it."
He didn't really take them on. The only thing he did post summon was striking at Oro with his staff only for Oro to flick him away. Attaching exploding tags to their legs when they kicked him and grabbing them in the darkness was the only thing he did against them. Otherwise both wood style attacks had him in a corner.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Funny. Choza went to that academy and yet he seemed pretty amazed at how strong Dan considered Madara.
HAHA! So you're going to use an idiot as your example, huh?
Let's go ahead and forget about Choza's idiocy and then remember Sasuke reminding Naruto about the VotE. Sasuke...someone who actually paid attention in school.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And it's funny how the guy who defeated Madara Uchiha, the guy who plays games with 5 Kage when he can clearly kill them with ease, is still for whatever reason considered by you to be a normal Kage.
Here's a few things for you:
1. Madara is relying quite a bit on powers that he did not have against Hashirama: wood, rinnegan, and an immortal body. It wasn't until this latest chapter that he used something that was not specific to his rinnegan and wood techs.
2. Hiruzen, in his old ass "pitiful state", was still hailed as the strongest of the 5 kage which includes 2 out of the 5 currently fighting Madara. BAM!
3. Being a normal level HOkage is not being a weak kage, by any means. People like Hiruzen and Minato are legendarily strong along with Hashirama. The weak kages are Tobirama and Tsuanade. Average would be Danzo (but he was only temp, iirc).
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. You're holding them up to Hashirama's standard, somehow saying they surpassed him(when they have pitiful showings in comparison).2. It can be argued that Kabuto even includes them in that statement.
3. Hashirama defeated both the Mountain Busting Madara and the Mountain Busting Kyuubi. Hiruzen, with the whole of his village behind him, could not do anything to the Kyuubi but push it out the village. He was helpless. And don't give me that "But he was old" excuse. If you're honestly going to put Hiruzen's undefined Prime(the only thing I know about him in his prime is that he was stronger than Tobirama, the weakest Hokage...and even that requires me to take his word for it) above Hashirama, the guy who has legitimately done legendary feats in the past, then I'll yell or something. And Minato did only slightly better than Hiruzen with regards to the Kyuubi(and still needed his wife's help).
1. Hiruzen did surpass Hashirama, as seen on panel. Can't ignore on-panel evidence, dude...regardless of a power creep PIS. 🙂 Dems duh breaks, mang. That version of Hiruzen was pitiful compared to his prime. Quite amazing, isn't it, knowing that the Legendarily strong Hashirama is greatly eclipsed by the likes of Hiruzen, huh? That's why Kabuto aptly stated "anymore" rather than ending his statement before the "anymore" portion.
2. It cannot because they are both gone and not retrievable even with ET. Potential candidates would definitely include Hiruzen who is, by on panel canon, more powerful that Hashirama even as an old man, probably Minato, and maybe some deceased Kage that we did not get to see in the great shinobi war.
3. Wait, so you are just going to ignore the fact that Hashirama went into that fight against Madara and Kurama with the ability to literally control tailed beasts on a level that surpassed Madara's ability? Yes...you are going to ignore that. I, however, am not. And you're going to ignore the fact that Sarutobi was a retired Hokage? Yes, you're going to ignore that. And then, in the same paragraph, you're going to ignore the fact that Minato had zero control over a full-powered Kurama (a massive handicap compared to Hashirama) against a person that did have control WHILE Minato was trying to protect the village, his wife, and his newborn son, at the same time...and pretend like Minato somehow is pititful compared to Hashirama? 😆 Please tone down your obvious bias against Hiruzen and Minato: it's showing. Now go yell at something. Let's also not forget that Hashirama fought Madara quite a long way away from the village. Minato? Yeah...he kind of teleported that shit a safe distance away so Minato not only started his fight in a shitty spot, he had to take that shit storm elsewhere.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It was done.
It was not. Yamato is an incomplete attempt at replicating a perfected clone of Hashirama.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Orochimaru wanted to see if you could implant Senju cells to gain his powers. For the longest time the answer was no. After Yamamoto showed up, the success rate was a 1 in 60 chance. Done as done can be.
*Yamato (Kishimoto should have never used Yamato when Yamamato was already taken...the bastard).
But see my very last comment for why it was not "done".
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And why would I go into a big tangent on why Hashirama couldn't be summoned?
Because that's the only point I said you should have made, right? 😐
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I do not own the databook nor do I know where there is a source online(have looked) so that page number isn't helpful.
Cool.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Gamabunta has never sliced through mountains, Naruto could, Tsunade couldn't. Bee could, Nagato could(not as casually though), Itachi has never shown the ability to cause that much damage.
Gamabunta's air attacks were enough to destroy tons of trees, all at once. His sword is literally stupid huge. He can easily change the landscape. That much was obvious and it is sad that I had to explain that to you.
Tsunade created a small crater in the ground, that was quite deep and extend about 10 meters in front of her....while drunk....with a single finger. "Couldn't change the landscape" my ass. She can swing Gamabunta's big ass sword without breaking a sweat: proof enough that she could change the landscape.
Itachi's Susano'o with it's sword is more than large enough to do some landscaping changes. Same with Sasuke.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And of course...Madara compares his sword to the power of the Bijuu.
And Madara also thought Hashirama was on par with the Great Sage when an old "washed up" man man-handled Hashirama, Tobirama, and Oro all at once. Ad hominem, I know...but still fun for me to reply with, none the less. It would not be comparable to Kurama's power, but it would be comparable to some of the weaker biju, no doubt.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It doesn't. Madara honestly would not give a shit if Hiruzen and Minato were fighting with the 5 Kage. Because Hashirama is more impressive than both of them combined.
And yet, you're literally wrong by canon. Well, that was a quick argument. 🙂
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Because we all know: That fight definitely caused the map to be redrawn...
Yeah, a making of a river.
Now who created a massive cliff with a waterfall? Oh, right: Yamato. Well, add Yamato to the list of people that can alter the landscape.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And done.
You poopin'?
Originally posted by BloodRain
"(...), was called the strongest of all the Hokage"
Not much by itself, especially if its only from Iruka's mouth. Actually can someone translate the quote? " 三代目は　特に歴代の中でも最強と言われポロフェッサーと呼ばれた天才だったんだぞ！" Because I dont see the word 'hokage' there..
Well, let's crowdsource it.
Google translate gives it as:
We've only had the third generation is known as the genius is said to Porofessa strongest among successive especially
Babylon Japanese to English:
The third-generation in particular among the strongest ever said tussah verify Polo called was a genius.
Yahoo:
I was said to be the strongest in each generation in particular for the third generation and was a genius called ポロフェッサー
IM translator:
I was told the Hokage especially strongest in the past, was called ポロフェッサー genius!
So the word Hokage is in there, but for all I know it says "The Hokage were the strongest of their generations, the 3rd especially."
It could mean that the 3rd was the most dominant Hokage (i.e. Hashirama had a rival in Madara. Hiruzen had no rival).
Or it could mean Iruka thinks Hiruzen is the strongest.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And....yeah. By the by, calling Madara's respect for Hashirama a boner doesn't invalidate statements like "People called him the Strongest Shinobi" and "If I'm the only one...this time the maps won't need to be redrawn so drastically."
If we use your logic, then folks said the same of Minato. "Saviour of the world", "Child of the prophecy", A didn't think ANYONE could surpass him. And these things may have been true in their time. Hashirama was the best in his time. So was Minato. Now, it looks more like Naruto or amped up Madara is the strongest ever.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And it's funny how the guy who defeated Madara Uchiha, the guy who plays games with 5 Kage when he can clearly kill them with ease, is still for whatever reason considered by you to be a normal Kage.
He is only playing with them like this due to the enhancements. Without them, there is no Mokuton, 2 meteors, perfect Susano'o, and perhaps the cloned susano'os. We have no idea how much chakra Madara had pre-enhancement. I'm pretty sure the 5 Kage would have taken out Madara when he was just Madara at the VoTE.
1. You're holding them up to Hashirama's standard, somehow saying they surpassed him(when they have pitiful showings in comparison).3. Hashirama defeated both the Mountain Busting Madara and the Mountain Busting Kyuubi.
What showings does Hashirama have? There have been no accounts of the Hashirama/Madara fight that I am aware of. You have said yourself that the fight with Hiruzen was a low showing (although we have seen nothing else from him).
Hashirama really didn't have to defeat any mountain busting Kurama. His special chakra suppressed and neutralized him, with the help of the necklace. So it's not like Hashirama actually had to fight the nine tails like Hiruzen and Minato. Also, the only attack I can think of that's mountain busting for Madara is the meteor attack. I thought the perfect Susan0'0 was the product of senju DNA and thus wouldn't have been available to him in the Hashirama fight.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I am having a hard time understanding your point. Are you trying to prove my point?"There aren't any ninjas on the same level of the First Hokage Senju Hashirama [b]anymore
."3Why?
Hiruzen and Minato are dead. [/B]
You're seriously arguing using specific word choice with a translation? Lol, do I even need to tell you why that's stupid?
Originally posted by dadudemon
And, the fact that Madara literally has not seen Hiruzen and Minato, or is even aware of them, kind of does invalidate his point about Hashirama."Hey, Madara. Hiruzen, as an old man, who was considered 'pitiful' compared to his prime, took on a kage level opponent, Hashirama, and Tobirama....and ended it against those three in a virtual stalemate. Suck it."
I think its pretty obvious that Hashirama was holding back in that fight.
Originally posted by socool8520
He is only playing with them like this due to the enhancements. Without them, there is no Mokuton, 2 meteors, perfect Susano'o, and perhaps the cloned susano'os. We have no idea how much chakra Madara had pre-enhancement. I'm pretty sure the 5 Kage would have taken out Madara when he was just Madara at the VoTE.What showings does Hashirama have? There have been no accounts of the Hashirama/Madara fight that I am aware of. You have said yourself that the fight with Hiruzen was a low showing (although we have seen nothing else from him).
No, without his enhancements, Madara does not have Mokuton, and by extension, the wood clones. He had the Rinnegan, and the meteors as well. However, he had severe, possibly fatal, injuries after the VotE fight i.e. his body wouldn't be in the perfect condition it is in right now.
Pre-enhancement, he had enough chakra for FAPS (Final Advent Perfect Susano'o). Both Tsunade and Onoki assume that he had acquired FAPS long before VotE, and Madara does not deny it.
Every wood-related showing that Yamato has, is Hashirama's, except Hashirama's would be far more powerful. Likewise, every wood-related showing that Madara has, is Hashirama's as well. In addition to that, Hashirama was in all likelihood more versatile with Wood than either Madara or Yamato. He was able to beat FAPS. He had several Bijuu as his pets, and possessed regeneration that was at the very least equal to Tsunade's Byakugou regeneration.
EDIT:
Originally posted by socool8520
I just re-read and I guess it can be inferred that the perfect Susano'o was available to Madara. However in the translation I read, it does not state that bijuus can not stand up to its power, but that his perfect susano'o is on that level.
Never mind then, disregard the first part of my post that talks about Susano'o.
Yeah, there are different translations out there.
~ Anyway, I'm not going to get into this shitstorm. Despite the fact that Minato-wank annoys me to no end, you two thinking Minato is superior to Hashirama is old news.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No, without his enhancements, Madara does not have Mokuton, and by extension, the wood clones. He had the Rinnegan, and the meteors as well. However, he had severe, possibly fatal, injuries after the VotE fight i.e. his body wouldn't be in the perfect condition it is in right now.
Pre-enhancement, he had enough chakra for FAPS (Final Advent Perfect Susano'o). Both Tsunade and Onoki assume that he had acquired FAPS long before VotE, and Madara does not deny it.Every wood-related showing that Yamato has, is Hashirama's, except Hashirama's would be far more powerful. Likewise, every wood-related showing that Madara has, is Hashirama's as well. In addition to that, Hashirama was in all likelihood more versatile with Wood than either Madara or Yamato. He was able to beat FAPS. He had several Bijuu as his pets, and possessed regeneration that was at the very least equal to Tsunade's Byakugou regeneration.
EDIT:
Never mind then, disregard the first part of my post that talks about Susano'o.
Yeah, there are different translations out there.
~ Anyway, I'm not going to get into this shitstorm. Despite the fact that Minato-wank annoys me to no end, you two thinking Minato is superior to Hashirama is old news.
I was under the impression that Madara had not unlocked rinnegan until after the VoTE scrap since he needed to get Hashirama's DNA to unlock it. Therefore, I didn't think he had meteors or any other rinnegan techs. Also, I thought that the regen was the one place that Tsunade surpassed hashirama.
As far as Minato goes, I think his skill set makes him a match for Hashirama. Sure he has only used two techs, but with them, he has only had someone lay a hand on him one time as I recall. And the people he was fighting with were not chumps. Do i think he comes out of the battle unscathed? of course not, but with his quick strike ability (the fastest in the manga besides maybe current Naruto), sealing techs, and intelligence, I don't think that it is far fetched for him to be able to defeat Hashirama.
Originally posted by Q99
Kiba's thing is speed. Remember how much faster he was than Naruto when they fought.However, unlike Sasuke and Lee, the purpose of his speed is basically to max out hitting power in a rush, and he doesn't have the precision they do. Note his taijutsu is a mere 3 even post-timeskip.
I can agree with this, however, they should have like a 6 or 7 seven for the extremely fast people. Cause there is no way that Kiba's Gazuga is almost as fast as naruto's speed now. And I think it is more than .5 difference.
Originally posted by socool8520
I was under the impression that Madara had not unlocked rinnegan until after the VoTE scrap since he needed to get Hashirama's DNA to unlock it. Therefore, I didn't think he had meteors or any other rinnegan techs. Also, I thought that the regen was the one place that Tsunade surpassed hashirama.
There isn't much that points to Madara needing Hashirama's DNA to unlock Rinnegan. In fact, Tobi is living proof that merely having Hashirama's DNA and a Sharingan will not unlock the Rinnegan. Something else needs to be there. Might be that one needs EMS and Hashirama's DNA to unlock the Rinnegan. Who knows.
Madara did unlock Rinnegan after VotE though. This was before Kabuto enhanced him, which is what I thought you were referring to.
By virtue of Madara's words, Tsunade's medical techniques were vastly inferior to that of Hashirama's. Byakugou/handseal-less regeneration was the only thing she could do that was on Hashirama's level when it came to medical techniques.
Thus I could easily argue that Hashirama himself could use chakra enhanced strength ala Tsunade.
Originally posted by socool8520
I can agree with this, however, they should have like a 6 or 7 seven for the extremely fast people. Cause there is no way that Kiba's Gazuga is almost as fast as naruto's speed now. And I think it is more than .5 difference.
Yea, some of the speedsters do rate a cap break to 5.5 or 6.