Originally posted by socool8520
Considering how that seal works, i would assume it is unrecoverable unless you switch bodies or something. Oro had to switch bodies before he could use his hands again. I'm just under the assumption that once a part of you is sealed away, it's gone.
Hm, good point on the usage on Oro.
^ It just seems with that seal, a part of your life gets taken with it. I assume this is what Minato meant by taking the Yin or Yang (can't remember off the top of my head) chakra from Kurama. He probably figured that half of Kurama would be more than enough to help Naruto, which currently, is correct.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
And/or because he was the one person who knew both the Toads and Minato extremely well, and was trusted by both parties.
If no Jiraiya, it would have probably gone to Sarutobi. And it was Sarutobi that ended up watching out for Naruto, the most, before 12 anyway.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Not really. All they know is that Naruto has the Kyuubi sealed into him. Nothing indicates they knew about him having half of it.
That's wrong: everything indicated that. Why did Minato die if all he did was seal Kurama into Naruto? Why do you think no one knows where there were tons of people watching the whole thing go down (it was tons, man. Any more than 3 people is tons, to me). Why do you think nothing indicates that when...wait for it...
Enma recognizes it:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v14/c122/12.html
Looks like Minato talked about it prior to Minato actually using it in front of Sarutobi:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v14/c122/13.html
And here Oro recognizes, after Sarutobi explains what he is doing (cause Oro can't see it), this jutsu that sealed part of Kurama:
"you mean that this was the jutsu that even sealed the kyuubi?"
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v14/c124/4.html
Funny, how after hearing the description of the jutsu he can't see, he recognizes it as the jutsu that sealed the kyuubi. He's part of Akatsuki...or was part of it. Seems that Akatsuki would know.
But let's just assume that Oro is really smart and is just genius enough to have worked out that Minato sealed Kurama into the dead demon and some into Naruto. That's a given. But that means that Akatsuki knows that, as well. Oro was part of them shortly prior to the events of Naruto. How did Oro know that when he was already an exile of the village? You can say he sent spies. But why would he sends spies to collect that information? No matter how you approach this, at the very least, akatsuki knows.
If I had time, I would reread the first 200 chapters of Naruto because I could have sworn it covered in there that Kurama was sealed with Minato and the rest of Kurama with naruto.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Nah. If Tobi does not know, Akatsuki wouldn't know.
Wait. How do you know Tobi doesn't know? All things indicate that he does know. It would be shitty intelligence if they did not know that one of the tailed beasts only had half of it's chakra.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
And he could have always stolen some chakra from Naruto during those 16 years.
He could have? With the protection of the village? That's right: they did try to steal it. Itachi was one of them but used that as just a ploy to re-warn Danzo to keep his hands off of Sasuke. Later, Nagato tried to as well.
Originally posted by socool8520
Considering how that seal works, i would assume it is unrecoverable unless you switch bodies or something. Oro had to switch bodies before he could use his hands again. I'm just under the assumption that once a part of you is sealed away, it's gone.
Fair point.
The Kyuubi is still just chakra given physical form & sentience though, and I don't think it has a soul like human ninjas do. Its chakra was what got sealed, and since it is just chakra, this is why it shrank. As opposed to Orochimaru and the 4 Hokages, who got their souls sealed, but their physical bodies did not shrink at all.
We already know that if the Kyuubi dies within its host, it will regenerate and revive after a few years.
Previously, it used to be the same size as the other Bijuu (as shown when they kawaii bijuu-lings). I don't think it hit a huge growth spurt and grew to twice the size of the other Bijuus.
If it shrank it should be smaller than the other Bijuu. Yet it was the same size when Naruto & Kurama melded their chakra and transformed.
Either Kurama has recovered some of that lost chakra back, or Naruto himself at that point in time had as much chakra as Kurama currently does i.e. both have half of what Kurama originally had.
Don't get me wrong, I'm just speculating.
Originally posted by dadudemon
If no Jiraiya, it would have probably gone to Sarutobi. And it was Sarutobi that ended up watching out for Naruto, the most, before 12 anyway.
Possibly. Still went to Jiraiya though, who Minato trusted more than anyone else.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That's wrong: everything indicated that. Why did Minato die if all he did was seal Kurama into Naruto? Why do you think no one knows where there were tons of people watching the whole thing go down (it was tons, man. Any more than 3 people is tons, to me). Why do you think nothing indicates that when...wait for it...Enma recognizes it:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v14/c122/12.html
Looks like Minato talked about it prior to Minato actually using it in front of Sarutobi:
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v14/c122/13.html
And here Oro recognizes, after Sarutobi explains what he is doing (cause Oro can't see it), this jutsu that sealed part of Kurama:
"you mean that this was the jutsu that even sealed the kyuubi?"
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v14/c124/4.html
Funny, how after hearing the description of the jutsu he can't see, he recognizes it as the jutsu that sealed the kyuubi. He's part of Akatsuki...or was part of it. Seems that Akatsuki would know.
But let's just assume that Oro is really smart and is just genius enough to have worked out that Minato sealed Kurama into the dead demon and some into Naruto. That's a given. But that means that Akatsuki knows that, as well. Oro was part of them shortly prior to the events of Naruto. How did Oro know that when he was already an exile of the village? You can say he sent spies. But why would he sends spies to collect that information? No matter how you approach this, at the very least, akatsuki knows.
If I had time, I would reread the first 200 chapters of Naruto because I could have sworn it covered in there that Kurama was sealed with Minato and the rest of Kurama with naruto.
4 people usually do not weigh 1 ton, never mind multiple tons. So you're wrong. excellent
It's no wonder he recognizes it as the jutsu that sealed the Kyuubi after Sarutobi outright states "this was the jutsu of the hero who saved the village."
In addition, before Jiraiya's convo with Geotora, I assumed that Minato had somehow used the Shiki Fuujin to seal the Kyuubi in Naruto. The seals on Naruto's belly, and on Hiruzen's belly, looked similar.
I don't know if Orochimaru joined Akatsuki just before Minato died. He was with Akatsuki approximately 7 years later.
And even if Orochimaru knew that Minato had split the Kyuubi's chakra, there's no reason to believe the rest of Akatsuki, or Tobi knew of this from Orochimaru. After all, Orochimaru had to secretly discover by himself what Tobi's plans really were. He loves cock-blocking people.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Wait. How do you know Tobi doesn't know? All things indicate that he does know. It would be shitty intelligence if they did not know that one of the tailed beasts only had half of it's chakra.
Latest chapter. He says he wanted to wait until he could revive it in a perfect form. Half the Kyuubi's chakra would not resurrect it in a perfect form, much like fragments wouldn't.
Originally posted by dadudemon
He could have? With the protection of the village? That's right: they did try to steal it. Itachi was one of them but used that as just a ploy to re-warn Danzo to keep his hands off of Sasuke. Later, Nagato tried to as well.
Was talking about Kurama, not Akatsuki.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Fair point.The Kyuubi is still just chakra given physical form & sentience though, and I don't think it has a soul like human ninjas do. Its chakra was what got sealed, and since it is just chakra, this is why it shrank. As opposed to Orochimaru and the 4 Hokages, who got their souls sealed, but their physical bodies did not shrink at all.
We already know that if the Kyuubi dies within its host, it will regenerate and revive after a few years.Previously, it used to be the same size as the other Bijuu (as shown when they kawaii bijuu-lings). I don't think it hit a huge growth spurt and grew to twice the size of the other Bijuus.
If it shrank it should be smaller than the other Bijuu. Yet it was the same size when Naruto & Kurama melded their chakra and transformed.
Either Kurama has recovered some of that lost chakra back, or Naruto himself at that point in time had as much chakra as Kurama currently does i.e. both have half of what Kurama originally had.Don't get me wrong, I'm just speculating.
When you put it that way, it is plausible. I just think he seals a part of your life force, regardless of your make up, but with bijuus being different than everything else, it could be possible. I would think minato would have thought of that though.
Also i don't think the size really matters. Nothing indicates that if you lose chakra you shrink. if that were trrue, then the idea of Kurama being twice as big as the other bijuu would have to be true as well. but everytime we have seen him, he was about the same size, even when he attacked the village under Tobi's influence. Even then he was no bigger or smaller than he is now. he was roughly the same size as Gamabunta iirc, and Gam is about bijuu size considering how he sized up with Shikaku.
Originally posted by socool8520
When you put it that way, it is plausible. I just think he seals a part of your life force, regardless of your make up, but with bijuus being different than everything else, it could be possible. I would think minato would have thought of that though.Also i don't think the size really matters. Nothing indicates that if you lose chakra you shrink. if that were trrue, then the idea of Kurama being twice as big as the other bijuu would have to be true as well. but everytime we have seen him, he was about the same size, even when he attacked the village under Tobi's influence. Even then he was no bigger or smaller than he is now. he was roughly the same size as Gamabunta iirc, and Gam is about bijuu size considering how he sized up with Shikaku.
Yeah, Shiki Fuujin seals one's soul instead of just chakra, which is why Orochimaru's arms died once he lost part of his soul, whereas Kurama merely shrank in size.
Actually, for Bijuu, I think the size of their actual form would change depending on how much chakra they are using, though Jinchuurikii are capable of condensing that chakra into V2 form.
This is what happened to Kurama after Minato sealed away the Yin half of its chakra.
There have been differences here and there. For instance, when Yugito transformed against Hidan & Kakuzu, the Two-Tails was not as big as she was when Tobi was using her against Naruto & Bee.
Kurama is just a little bigger than Gamabunta IMO. The thing with Shukaku is that Gaara created a Sand Construct, as opposed to outright transforming into Shukaku. Still, I suppose Shukaku is the same size as all other Bijuu.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix\This is what happened to Kurama after Minato sealed away the Yin half of its chakra.
There have been differences here and there. For instance, when Yugito transformed against Hidan & Kakuzu, the Two-Tails was not as big as she was when Tobi was using her against Naruto & Bee.Kurama is just a little bigger than Gamabunta IMO. The thing with Shukaku is that Gaara created a Sand Construct, as opposed to outright transforming into Shukaku. Still, I suppose Shukaku is the same size as all other Bijuu.
Ahhh...well played sir. I stand corrected. He most definitely shrank in size.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Possibly. Still went to Jiraiya though, who Minato trusted more than anyone else.
No, Minato trusted Kushina the most. peaches
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
4 people usually do not weigh 1 ton, never mind multiple tons. So you're wrong. excellent
You sunnuva birch. K, fine...one of them was really dense.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It's no wonder he recognizes it as the jutsu that sealed the Kyuubi after Sarutobi outright states "this was the jutsu of the hero who saved the village."
And how many people saved the village? Yeah, every Hokage, multiple times. It was the fact that it was a "sealing" that sparked Oro's recognition. Also, pizza sounds delicious right now.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
In addition, before Jiraiya's convo with Geotora, I assumed that Minato had somehow used the Shiki Fuujin to seal the Kyuubi in Naruto. The seals on Naruto's belly, and on Hiruzen's belly, looked similar.
I do not know the significance of this point, here. But it sounds smart/accurate.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I don't know if Orochimaru joined Akatsuki just before Minato died. He was with Akatsuki approximately 7 years later.
How old was Nagato? Nagato was a kid around 5-10 during the second war. Based on the appearance (and most likely the anime), Oro left and joined up with Akatsuki shortly after he was "kicked" out by Sarutobi.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
And even if Orochimaru knew that Minato had split the Kyuubi's chakra, there's no reason to believe the rest of Akatsuki, or Tobi knew of this from Orochimaru. After all, Orochimaru had to secretly discover by himself what Tobi's plans really were. He loves cock-blocking people.
I don't think Akatsuki needed Oro to tell them. I think they can just tell. However, since Oro was with them, they know.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Latest chapter. He says he wanted to wait until he could revive it in a perfect form. Half the Kyuubi's chakra would not resurrect it in a perfect form, much like fragments wouldn't.
So you don't know. It seems like you're making my point, not yours. You're saying that he acknowledges he has fragmants of two out of the 9: hachibi and kurama.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Was talking about Kurama, not Akatsuki.
I think you have mistakenly believed that Akatsuki and Tobi are mutually exclusive when they are explicitly not. What now?
Originally posted by dadudemonI think you have mistakenly believed that Akatsuki and Tobi are mutually exclusive when they are explicitly not. What now?
I think he was referring to a question I asked regarding how Kurama would regenerate the chakra/soul that Minato sealed away from. He replied that he could have regenrated over time or stolen it from Naruto. i just thought about, but if this were true, Naruto has some ridiculous chakra by himself. We know that he has a lot chakra, but damn.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No, Minato trusted Kushina the most. peaches
Only because Kushina used her nekkid no jutsu to win that contest. In a fair trusting contest, Jiraiya wins hands down. uhuh
Originally posted by dadudemon
You sunnuva birch. K, fine...one of them was really dense.
Actually, according to Effect Veiler, 4 people would weigh quadrillions of tons, seeing as Countries are much larger than Pluto's Orbit, and people would have to at least be mountain sized if everything's to scale. (Ninjas are at least lightspeed according to EV, and it takes ninjas 3 days to reach another country) vin
Originally posted by dadudemon
And how many people saved the village? Yeah, every Hokage, multiple times. It was the fact that it was a "sealing" that sparked Oro's recognition. Also, pizza sounds delicious right now.
Before then? As far as we know, only Hashirama, who didn't die when he saved Konoha. Hiruzen's exploits are unknown, and he wouldn't refer to himself in the third person, while Tobirama was Hokage during a war, and Hashi/Tobi would have recognized the jutsu if it were their's.
And it was more of "sealing jutsu that takes away the caster's life".
Originally posted by dadudemon
I do not know the significance of this point, here. But it sounds smart/accurate.
I assumed Minato used the DDC seal to seal the Kyuubi in Naruto, as the seals looked similar.
Originally posted by dadudemon
How old was Nagato? Nagato was a kid around 5-10 during the second war. Based on the appearance (and most likely the anime), Oro left and joined up with Akatsuki shortly after he was "kicked" out by Sarutobi.
He left Konoha some time after Minato became Kage.
Where is it said he joined just after he left?
Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't think Akatsuki needed Oro to tell them. I think they can just tell. However, since Oro was with them, they know.
They aren't clairvoyant, and as far as we know, Zetsu wasn't there, while Tobi left after getting owned by Minato and subsequently scaring the shit out of him.
If they didn't know that Orochimaru was sniffing around, or that he had experimented on Danzou to give him Senju & Uchiha abilities, it is safe to say they might not have known what he knew about that night.
Originally posted by dadudemon
So you don't know. It seems like you're making my point, not yours. You're saying that he acknowledges he has fragmants of two out of the 9: hachibi and kurama.
Not really, I'm saying his plan was to wait until he could revive the Juubi with all of its chakra as opposed to using fragments or halves, which would imply he thinks Kurama has all of its chakra.
Originally posted by dadudemonSorry, WUT?
I think you have mistakenly believed that Akatsuki and Tobi are mutually exclusive when they are explicitly not. What now?
Originally posted by socool8520
\Ahhh...well played sir. I stand corrected. He most definitely shrank in size.
hat
Tremendously so. He was a bigger than Gamabunta before, but after getting his chakra sealed, he'd be a fairly large puppy in comparison.
Originally posted by socool8520
I think he was referring to a question I asked regarding how Kurama would regenerate the chakra/soul that Minato sealed away from. He replied that he could have regenrated over time or stolen it from Naruto. i just thought about, but if this were true, Naruto has some ridiculous chakra by himself. We know that he has a lot chakra, but damn.
It's just speculation, so don't get ahead of yourself. 😛
By this point though, Naruto does have a monstrous amount of chakra, as evidenced by Kurama regenerating in a couple of days after he had a noticeable amount of chakra taken from him.
Naruto and Kurama together are able to output as much power as 5 Bijuu combining their attacks.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It's just speculation, so don't get ahead of yourself. 😛By this point though, Naruto does have a monstrous amount of chakra, as evidenced by Kurama regenerating in a couple of days after he had a noticeable amount of chakra taken from him.
Naruto and Kurama together are able to output as much power as 5 Bijuu combining their attacks.
Understood. NBD, We have all speculated on certain things in this manga. lol
I know he has a lot of chakra, but I thought the 5 bijuu ball feat was pretty much all Kurama. naruto was pretty much running on fumes save for the slight boost from Son Goku. I think full chakra Naruto/Kurama would be ridiculous. Eevn more so than right now.
So I read through parts of the original manga and it seems as if part of the Kyūbi's chakra is forever lost in the belly of the Shinigami.
However it's implied that all Jinchūriki have had the Yin chakra of their Bijū separated from them — with the potential exception of Gaara — to limit their influence over the host.
Originally posted by Astner
However it's implied that all Jinchūriki have had the Yin chakra of their Bijū separated from them — with the potential exception of Gaara — to limit their influence over the host.
No it is not. That was only stated of the Kyubi, not any other tailed beast. If you consider how much more chakra the Kyubi has (as much as all others combined, at the very least and twice as much as the others combined, at the most), it should be no wonder that Jiraiaya said what he said about Naruto and the Kyubi's chakra.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Only because Kushina used her nekkid no jutsu to win that contest. In a fair trusting contest, Jiraiya wins hands down. uhuh
So THAT'S where Naruto got it from.... hmm
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Actually, according to Effect Veiler, 4 people would weigh quadrillions of tons, seeing as Countries are much larger than Pluto's Orbit, and people would have to at least be mountain sized if everything's to scale. (Ninjas are at least lightspeed according to EV, and it takes ninjas 3 days to reach another country) vin
Yes, I read the argument. You are making my butt hurt.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Before then? As far as we know, only Hashirama, who didn't die when he saved Konoha. Hiruzen's exploits are unknown, and he wouldn't refer to himself in the third person, while Tobirama was Hokage during a war, and Hashi/Tobi would have recognized the jutsu if it were their's.And it was more of "sealing jutsu that takes away the caster's life".
The second saved Konoha: gave his life. Hashirama saved Konoha: gave his life in some unknown way. The third gave his life (was in the process of doing so). The 4th gave his life, too. So out of all of those, why would Oro recognize the jutsu specific to a Hokage? That's right: some sealing shit was going down.
The recognition occured after the jutsu was explained, though. Not before. That's direct evidence that it was known to at least some, other than the ones that saw it, that Minato sealed some of the Kyubi before sealing the rest into naruto.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I assumed Minato used the DDC seal to seal the Kyuubi in Naruto, as the seals looked similar.
No idea what you're talking about or the relevance of what you're talking about.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He left Konoha some time after Minato became Kage.
Where is it said he joined just after he left?
Where is it said that he left after Minato became Hokage?
Keep in mind that Yamato had to be around many years after Hiruzen confronted Oro. Yamamto was just a kid when Oro was confronted. Did that event occur before the events that lead to Minato's death? Most assuredly. Maybe even several years prior. I would say Oro was with Akatsuki for 5-10 years. Wasn't Tobi dressed in the Akatsuki robe when he attacked Konoha (just checked...no...it was all black...no "flowers"😉.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
They aren't clairvoyant, and as far as we know, Zetsu wasn't there, while Tobi left after getting owned by Minato and subsequently scaring the shit out of him.
I was thinking just a chakra check would reveal that to them. I wanna ignore Zetsu's ability to spy anywhere at anytime.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
If they didn't know that Orochimaru was sniffing around, or that he had experimented on Danzou to give him Senju & Uchiha abilities, it is safe to say they might not have known what he knew about that night.
Danzo and his experiments are still not off-limits, imo. However, anything Root did/does is probably the only thing that could be kept secret because of how Danzo is...and even then, his secrets were revealed (some of them).
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Not really, I'm saying his plan was to wait until he could revive the Juubi with all of its chakra as opposed to using fragments or halves, which would imply he thinks Kurama has all of its chakra.
No, just fragments, not "halves". It does not imply that he thinks Kurama had only half jutsu. If he was operating under the assumption that it was only half, then he has no choice but to conclude that a full power jubi will not include half of Kurama's power (because half of Kurama's power is sealed away, forever). If he meant "restore it to it's fully powered former self", he would have said as such. Because he didn't we can just as soundly assume that he was implying he thinks the "fullest power" possible is with a half-powered kurama.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Sorry, WUT?
You said:
"And he could have always stolen some chakra from Naruto during those 16 years."
To which I said:
"He could have? With the protection of the village? That's right: they did try to steal it. Itachi was one of them but used that as just a ploy to re-warn Danzo to keep his hands off of Sasuke. Later, Nagato tried to as well."
To which you said:
"Was talking about Kurama, not Akatsuki."
But distinguishing that fact was unnecessary because:
"I think you have mistakenly believed that Akatsuki and Tobi are mutually exclusive when they are explicitly not. What now?"
But either way you mix it, neither Kurama not Akatsuki could have stolen Naruto's chakra.
Why?
"With the protection of the village? That's right: they did try to steal it."
But even using the point of Kurama trying to steal it does not make sense. The only way Kurama can steal it is if Naruto takes Kurama's chakra. So if you solely meant "Kurama", that was a wasted point. It makes more sense if you meant "he" as in Tobi.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No it is not. That was only stated of the Kyubi, not any other tailed beast.
Originally posted by dadudemon
If you consider how much more chakra the Kyubi has (as much as all others combined, at the very least and twice as much as the others combined, at the most), it should be no wonder that Jiraiaya said what he said about Naruto and the Kyubi's chakra.
Originally posted by Astner
This is circular reasoning. You assume that the other Bijū didn't have their Yin Chakra sealed away.
Incorrect. I assume nothing.
You are assuming that they had their Yin Chakra sealed away. I do not assume anything at all regarding their chakra.
If you say it was sealed (half), you prove it. Don't ask me to prove nothing because that's impossible.
'Prove that they did not have half of their chakra sealed away!'
Simple, it was not stated or done anywhere in the entire manga for any biju except for Kurama.
