Originally posted by jinzin
Ulgh.... Dude if you're not going to even follow a train of thought I'm not sure how I'm supposed to have a debate with you. I didn't say I think Madara can hit Tobi because he's faster than Naruto or Minato.. and frankly, if that's what you took away from that argument then it's no wonder why everyone else is giving up on you.
I followed, but the key factor for Naruto hitting Tobi was speed, pure and simple. That is what I was pointing out. Wow, you're just raining sunshine aren't you.
Originally posted by jinzin
Those examples illustrate one point: TOBI CAN BE HIT. Again it's not as though he's untouchable, you just have to figure out the "how". Madara using 6 clones and Rennigan is going to be FAR more effective than Tobi. Simple as.
Originally posted by jinzin
As for why Tobi isn't using his other paths.. Frankly I don't know why he doesn't use them, but I didn't say he can't. Though only having 1 body to use them from doesn't do him as much good as it would do Madara and his clones.
He has 6 jinchuriiki under control. He could have used them the way Pain did. I gave reasons as to why that would be a bad idea, but whatever. You can't use multiple paths at the same time which leaves you open for attack.
http://www.mangasky.com/Naruto/588/19/
Madara even references this himself when he was being trapped by the combined efforts of dust release and Mei/Gaara's sand water tech. He had already sent out susano'o and so he couldn't change to absorption path in time. If he could do both at the same time, this wouldn't have been a problem. He had to give up on absorbing and pull out perfect susano'o to get out of his mistake.
Originally posted by jinzin
Yeah it sounds impressive to YOU because you have some nonsensical bias that somehow leads you to the conclusion that Tobi is > Madara. And frankly the side of him that got torched was the Zetsu side so color me unimpressed. 😐
It is impressive because it was in a suprise attack that he was hit by Amaterasu point blank and still managed to survive. Also, I have never stated that Tobi is greater/stronger than Madara. Ever. In fact, my sole argument, if you bothered to read my posts with Q99, was that neither Tobi nor Naruto was stronger/greater than Madara. My argument was that they weren't so far beneath Madara as to be a tier below him. The whole point I was trying to make was that both Tobi and Naruto have shown to be on Madara's. I then preceeded to give reasons why.
Originally posted by jinzin
He doesn't need to, he can just spam techniques for 5 minutes. Beauty of unlimited chakra.
This notion that you NEED S/T jutsu to hit Tobi is unfounded, you just need to be crafty.
Or hell, now that you mention it, I guess all Madara needs is Amaterasu.
I haven't seen Madara use a tech yet that he can spam for 5 minutes that will encompass an entire area the way Konan did (with prep). Madara is not surprising Tobi with Amaterasu the way Itachi's eyes did. Completely different circumstances.
Originally posted by jinzin
Wasn't the point. You said you can't hit Tobi without S/T techniques.. you're wrong.
I said speed and S/T iirc. Konan had ridiculous prep, but I will give you that. She did force him to use Izanagi. Other than a meaningless headbutt, when has Naruto hit Tobi without a S/T tech to help him?
Originally posted by jinzin
Reason why I ask that is because of several things. Every one of them had a Sharingan AND a Rennigan eye so that could easily be implanted. They're all ET zombies so they're ALREADY under control, and Tobi STILL was having difficulty "controlling" ONE of them when it got out of hand. So yeah, again, color me unimpressed.
Where is Tobi getting all of these rinnegans from to just implant them in ET bodies? Sharingans sure, but Rinnegans? I wasn't trying to impress you, just show you that he was using the rinnegan with those paths much like pain with the shared vision. The chakra spikes further prove that that was what was going on.
Originally posted by jinzin
He has used it sparingly in a fight he's clowning around in. I'd say the double meteor drop alone was enough proof but the fact that he doesn't have a limitation on his shakra... that's just overkill... Like you said, just because he hasn't (well he kind of did, just not prolonged) doesn't mean he can't. Likewise, Tobi isn't as fast as A or Naruto. Tobi has to close a gap to touch Madara, while Madara can spam clones, wood tech, susanoo, fire, meteors.... and the list goes on.
Having the most chakra does not automatically make you invincible. If this were the case, then Naruto should never be beaten by anyone except current Madara because his chakra reserves and stamina far outmatch everyone else in the manga. We both know that isn't true though. While I won't argue that Tobi is not as fast as Naruto, I will argue that his reaction time, coupled with kamui makes him faster than Madara. Tobi has 6 Bijuu to help close a gap. Why is that madara gets all of these clones and stuff, but Tobi has to get to Madara with zero help?
Originally posted by jinzin
I wouldn't exactly say he was "forced", that's a stretch. He's clowning the Kages right now and has fought half that battle with his arms crossed. There's a reason Tobi is riding off Madara's coat-tails. Madara is far more versatile and dangerous especially with his amps. And no a billion exploding tags or tp jutsu wouldn't do ANYTHING to an ET Madara who would just regen. 😐
Naruto being powerful doesn't really matter when he's still nowhere near as experienced or level headed as any ONE of the Kages (save Gaara on xp). It's the whole reason why Kakashi and Gai and B need to be there to save his ass every time he charges in. Having power is nice but if you don't know how to use it.... point proven when he got his foot stuck while attacking Kisime. And... Uh no... Madara has taken on 5 Kages while toying around and "done well" which translates to him casually giving up on fighting them because they're beginning to bore his ass. Tobi is in a defensive fight DESPITE having 6 Jinchurikki there to help even out/overtip the odds when the fight got started.
It's not a stretch at all. oonoki's crazy dust release forced him into using perfect susano'o. If Madara hadn't of used it, he may have been sealed right there. Also, all ET bodies can regen, what is your point? Madara can still be sealed if the attacks are strong enough. If he wasn't worried about getting hit by strong attacks and being sealed, then why would he absorb Naruto's FRS? You make it sound like Madara would regen instantly. If this were the case, then none of the ET bodies should have ever been sealed.
Naruto's battle xp is fine. He has had impressive victories over people who have had much more experience so I don't think this matters as much as you are saying.
The only reason Kakshi, and Bee are needed is because of Tobi's kamui. Which is why I am talking about how great of a defense/offense it is against anyone. I think things would be totally different if naruto were fighting Madara who can't just phase out of every attack. Tobi is the perfect person to fight against naruto's skillset, that is what is making their fight so interesting imo.
Madara isn't fighting Naruto, which is the reason is fight is so casual as you put it. KCM naruto would definitely be pushig madara right now.
Originally posted by jinzin
Are a lot of fans pissed? I know I'm disappointed as shit. Though the "fallen Naruto" plotline that'll come out of this will probably be okay.
Really? Hmmm....I could see that I guess. As much as I wanted it to be somebody else, I can live with it being Obito. now I hope Kishi clears it all up with some great baskstory work. How did Tobi and Madara meet? How did Tobi improve so much in such a short time? And most importantly, what made him decide to go this route? Should be a very interesting backstory.
Originally posted by socool8520
I followed, but the key factor for Naruto hitting Tobi was speed, pure and simple. That is what I was pointing out. Wow, you're just raining sunshine aren't you.
And once again, that's not the point. Madara is not Naruto. The only point worth addressing was that Tobi isn't untouchable.
Originally posted by socool8520
Yeah, under pretty extreme circumstances. Figuring out the how, as you put it, is what makes Tobi so formidable. He is not untouchable, but if you look at what it takes to land a hit, he's pretty damn close. Madara does not have 6 jinchuriiki clones, so what is your point?
🤨 I didn't say he has 6 Jinchuriki clones, I said he has clones... which he does... which he used to fight the Kage.
Him having multiple bodies using the Rennigan makes his use of the Rennigan more effective by default just based on that alone.
Originally posted by socool8520😐
He has 6 jinchuriiki under control. He could have used them the way Pain did. I gave reasons as to why that would be a bad idea, but whatever. You can't use multiple paths at the same time which leaves you open for attack.
Which is why in 1vs1.... Madara... using clones....using the different abilities of each path... Would be ENTIRELY more effective with Rennigan than Tobi... So you didn't follow along afterall.
Originally posted by socool8520
Madara even references this himself when he was being trapped by the combined efforts of dust release and Mei/Gaara's sand water tech. He had already sent out susano'o and so he couldn't change to absorption path in time. If he could do both at the same time, this wouldn't have been a problem. He had to give up on absorbing and pull out perfect susano'o to get out of his mistake.
Originally posted by socool8520He "managed" to survive the Zetsu part of him getting hit with Amaterasu. I'm not sure how that translates to "ZOMG physical attacks do NOTHING to him!" When we've seen that they do. It may be damage that can be healed over/zetsu-meshed/replaced but losing a limb is losing a limb. Once he loses a limb in-fight, it ain't comin' back. Madara? He's got regen.
It is impressive because it was in a suprise attack that he was hit by Amaterasu point blank and still managed to survive. Also, I have never stated that Tobi is greater/stronger than Madara. Ever. In fact, my sole argument, if you bothered to read my posts with Q99, was that neither Tobi nor Naruto was stronger/greater than Madara. My argument was that they weren't so far beneath Madara as to be a tier below him. The whole point I was trying to make was that both Tobi and Naruto have shown to be on Madara's. I then preceeded to give reasons why.
Idk about your argument with someone else, I know about your argument with me when you decided to drag me into it. Under which you ranted on about how Madara can't even hit Tobi all because I said that based off what we've seen so far Madara is more adept at his techniques than Tobi.. which is true, he's proven to be more adept, more versatile, and from what we know about the two characters evolved paast the Sharingan into the Rennigan where as Tobi's likely transplanting eyeballs... as Kakashi pointed out "you only have one jutsu!" 😬 Then you went out of your way to quote me and start an argument.
Originally posted by socool8520
I haven't seen Madara use a tech yet that he can spam for 5 minutes that will encompass an entire area the way Konan did (with prep). Madara is not surprising Tobi with Amaterasu the way Itachi's eyes did. Completely different circumstances.
Originally posted by socool8520Granted.. he hasn't.. but this is the kid that tried to fight Neji head on right after being told he couldn't do that. Again, when it comes to the how part, Naruto isn't exactly a matchup for Madara.
I said speed and S/T iirc. Konan had ridiculous prep, but I will give you that. She did force him to use Izanagi. Other than a meaningless headbutt, when has Naruto hit Tobi without a S/T tech to help him?
Originally posted by socool8520Well, they do establish that the bodies of ET zombies regen completely. He could spam out as many of those eyes out of Nagatos head as he pleased... but yeah, I kinda figured he was using both techniques, considering that they state it later. Just don't think "he controlled all the Jinchuriki!" is an entirely accurate statement to make when trying to establish some level over Madara. He had Rennigan control over zombies who are already under control or "changed" as B put it. And more to the point.. he lost that control pretty quickly when it came down to it.
Where is Tobi getting all of these rinnegans from to just implant them in ET bodies? Sharingans sure, but Rinnegans? I wasn't trying to impress you, just show you that he was using the rinnegan with those paths much like pain with the shared vision. The chakra spikes further prove that that was what was going on.
Originally posted by socool8520
Having the most chakra does not automatically make you invincible. If this were the case, then Naruto should never be beaten by anyone except current Madara because his chakra reserves and stamina far outmatch everyone else in the manga. We both know that isn't true though. While I won't argue that Tobi is not as fast as Naruto, I will argue that his reaction time, coupled with kamui makes him faster than Madara. Tobi has 6 Bijuu to help close a gap. Why is that madara gets all of these clones and stuff, but Tobi has to get to Madara with zero help?
I don't recall saying that it did. 😕 But being a threat at a touch doesn't make you invincible either, especially when you need to close a gap to beat an opponent that can keep you at bay 100 different ways.
My point is that Madara can spam broken tech all over the place because he'll never lose his energy.
As for why we're talking about Madara with clones vs. Tobi without tailed beasts... uh.. because that's what we're talking about... Isn't it? if people are trying to establish whether or not Madara is a tier above the likes of Tobi (as you just told me), then one would assume we're talking about a 1 on 1 fight in their current forms. The same way you discarded to Konan example because of prep time, I'd discard outside help. Jinchuriki are not part of Tobi's typical arsenal so to speak. Especially right now. Madara can spam clones whenever he wants.
Originally posted by socool8520
It's not a stretch at all. oonoki's crazy dust release forced him into using perfect susano'o. If Madara hadn't of used it, he may have been sealed right there. Also, all ET bodies can regen, what is your point? Madara can still be sealed if the attacks are strong enough. If he wasn't worried about getting hit by strong attacks and being sealed, then why would he absorb Naruto's FRS? You make it sound like Madara would regen instantly. If this were the case, then none of the ET bodies should have ever been sealed.
Naruto's battle xp is fine. He has had impressive victories over people who have had much more experience so I don't think this matters as much as you are saying.
The only reason Kakshi, and Bee are needed is because of Tobi's kamui. Which is why I am talking about how great of a defense/offense it is against anyone. I think things would be totally different if naruto were fighting Madara who can't just phase out of every attack. Tobi is the perfect person to fight against naruto's skillset, that is what is making their fight so interesting imo.
Madara isn't fighting Naruto, which is the reason is fight is so casual as you put it. KCM naruto would definitely be pushig madara right now.
And if he had been taking the fight seriously, he never would have been in that position from the start.
So far we've seen Madara regen half of his body WHILE fighting the Kages. It's not instant but it's damned close.
Naruto isn't a level headed character. He "jumps in", again exampled by his fight with Neji... He learns as he goes, at the cost of his own body, which is why Tobi's such a danger to him in this fight and as you said, why he needs aid there.
Comparing his inability to assess and overcome Tobi's skillset on his own doesn't translate to Madara also being unable to do so in battle... who... at this point is probably already fully aware of Tobi's abilities anyways.
I think it's likely that Madara somehow saved and influenced Obito and together, plotted a ton of this shit in advance (as implied). I don't doubt that he knows all about Obito's abilities, or hell, even helped him discover them.
Ok... Bottem line.. You came ranting at me asking how Madara is more adept with his techniques than Tobi when that's all I friggin said....
Madara evolved to Rennigan. Tobi likely did not.
The point above dictates Madara's Sharingan is more developed as well.
Madara is far more versatile than Tobi in battle, proved during their battles comparatively ("You only have one jutsu!"😉.
Madara's abilities are not limited by Chakra limitations, he's got both bloodline's DNA in him and already figured out how to use the firsts techniques (probably by way of Sharingan).
Tobi has a hax power... but he has ONE hax power. 😬
You ask "how so" in response to me saying Madara's the more adept of the two, but I ask.. How can anyone look at them and NOT come to that conclusion? Madara is CLEARLY the more adept and versatile of the two in battle (barring Tobi really opening up with some new stuff now that he's been revealed).
As for your original argument with Q99... I would say that when it comes to outright power levels then sure Madara's on a completely different tier than Naruto or Tobi just by virtue of his lack of limitations right now. But.... the beautiful thing about Naruto is that anyone can beat anyone with the right techniques under the right circumstances. IMO Madara is more powerful, AND more versatile than Tobi, but yes... (Barring Madara knowing all about Tobi and his abilities and having ways around them already that we don't know about) Tobi's abilities are hax enough to give him a fighting chance against Madara in a fight that would allow it to be a good one.
^ This whole infinite chakra business has been taken too literally imo. There is nothing to suggest that they can spam an attack forever. Not a single ET body has spammed an attack for any real length of time. If this were the case, then why did Muu equal out with Oonoki when he used dust release? Could he not have just kept using Dust release and solo'd the alliance right there? it's probably because it just regens like their bodies. If it was truly infinite as you say, how come Muu could not use dust release after half of his body was sealed? If his chakra were truly infinite, it wouldn't have mattered and he could still spam. Instead he only has half of his power and can't go beyond that in one go. It is much more logical that ET bodies can got to their chakra limit and then they must recharge, therefore making them incapable of, say, continuous meteors and the like. They can go to the limit of their individual capabilities before ET and then they have to wait for their chakra to regen. This is completely different than spamming jutsus without stopping.
I didn't care to comment on the rest of it as we were not going to see eye to eye. To reiterate, nothing Madara has done has put him above Tobi or Naruto at this point. Maybe in a few chapters he will do something even more amazing, but not yet, imo.
Originally posted by Q99
I agree with this. Still, regenerating chakra is useful.
Oh no doubt about it. It's great to have. The only reason I contested it was because Jinzin said that Madara could just rain down meteors and the like constantly. I disagree, and think there would be a limit, and then he would have to wait until his chakra was restored to use said attack again. What the limit is depends on the Madara's overall chakra, but 2 is the most we have seen so far. I believe it is the same for perfect susano'o. I don't think he could maintain it indefinitely. Sooner or later he wouldn't be able to sustain without a recharge. That could still leave you vulnerable for attack if somehone like Naruto could match your chakra limit with his sizeable chakra stores.
Originally posted by Q99
But, speaking of limits- if Tobi uses the Biju too much, they start to break free and he needs to spend effort restraining them.
This is true, however, he was capable of making 5 Bijuu bend to his will in the end. He had enough control to make 5 Bijuu work together and use joint attacks. It's just at that point, naruto had gone KCM mode and handled business.
Yeah, I just think at this moment, the top 3 are too close in power to really put 1 above the other two. It won't be too much longer before sasuke makes his way up there at the top as well.
So Q, do you think that since Tobi has been unmasked, he will start using more sharingan/Uchiha oriented jutsus? There is really no reason not to and it makes me wonder why he never used them before in the first place. Also, do you think that naruto clone is still in Tobi's dimension? That would be pretty awesome because tobi wouldn't be able to just go intangible anymore. This fight could get way more interesting. more so than it already is
No, I don't think the unmasking should change his style much. He's always shown off his sharingan.
Though, fireballs involving breathing out through the mouth should be open now.
Also, do you think that naruto clone is still in Tobi's dimension? That would be pretty awesome because tobi wouldn't be able to just go intangible anymore.
Yea, I'm not completely sure but it seems possible.
Originally posted by Kento
So, we get to see Gai's team. Ebisu and Genma just seem so random. Also Obito getting beaten twice by Gai during the Chunnin exams is something you figured he wouldn't wanna remember as easily as it happened.
Yeah, Gai kicked him in the face before he could even finish his jutsu. that was hilarious. My how the tables have turned though. One hax jutsu later, and now he could solo both of them.