The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by Bentley
That's... Absolutely absurd. Frankly, maybe it is just my perception compared to yours, but I feel that you're misreading Tobi entirely as a character -considering this and your assumptions about him being more powerful than Madara-.

Wow...I never said he was more powerful than Madara. Ever. Just on par, but take it any way you like.

Anyone can be talked to in this manga. Gaara and Nagato come to mind. Hell, pretty much anyone that Naruto has ever talked to has changed their perceptions save for maybe Sasuke. It's not like I said that this would happen, just that it wouldn't surprise me.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
That'd be terrible.

No, **** Obito and whatever the **** caused him to turn evil. He is the Big Bad. He might get a sad reflection while he dies but he can't get a redemption or whatever. He has literally been the most evil character in the manga. :l

Really? You couldn't think of anyone more evil?

Danzo - Had Itachi destroy his entire clan. had Kabuto kill his own mother figure. Had Sai fight to the death with his closest friend. Dude's an A-hole

Orochimaru - Manipulated subordinates until he lost interest. Resurrected people's friends so they would have to kill them again. (This goes for Kabuto too). performed horrible experiments on people to obtain strength, which apparently killed several people.

Madara - Well he's at least on par with Tobi as far as evil goes since they are essentially after the same thing it seems.

And Sasuke's on a fast track of being pretty evil. how many team mates has he left to die already? All of them. he also wants to commit mass genocide on his village for the mistakes of a few.

Originally posted by socool8520
Really? You couldn't think of anyone more evil?

Danzo - Had Itachi destroy his entire clan. had Kabuto kill his own mother figure. Had Sai fight to the death with his closest friend. Dude's an A-hole

Orochimaru - Manipulated subordinates until he lost interest. Resurrected people's friends so they would have to kill them again. (This goes for Kabuto too). performed horrible experiments on people to obtain strength, which apparently killed several people.

Madara - Well he's at least on par with Tobi as far as evil goes since they are essentially after the same thing it seems.

And Sasuke's on a fast track of being pretty evil. how many team mates has he left to die already? All of them. he also wants to commit mass genocide on his village for the mistakes of a few.

No. Because he is the Big Bad.

Danzo's selfish and hilariously cruel yeah. But at the end of the day, he was just aiming for a political position and was doing whatever he could to get there.

Orochimaru is the closest to Tobi, mostly because his disregard for human life goes as far as to kill 50 infants(Tobi only tried to kill one). However, since Tobi's kill count is far higher(and his goal would have him kill everyone on the planet effectively), he's still objectively the more evil.

Madara is planning the same thing but hasn't done as much evul. Even if he turns out to be the man behind Tobi, Obito's actions are heavily hinted to be his own.

Ha! Everything evil Sasuke has done, Tobi has done ten fold. This was the stupidest alternative. Tobi is planning to become a god and has killed tens of thousands just to get there.

Originally posted by socool8520
Wow...I never said he was more powerful than Madara. Ever. Just on par, but take it any way you like.

Ok, sorry for misrepresenting your argument, but that is only slightly less wrong. Madara can use Edo Tensei, it's likely he knows Izanami and has a variety of techs that surpass Tobi despite just having appeared during a few chapters. But again, you can really believe this but I do not believe it's the most reasonable assumption given what we have seen.

Originally posted by socool8520
Anyone can be talked to in this manga. Gaara and Nagato come to mind. Hell, pretty much anyone that Naruto has ever talked to has changed their perceptions save for maybe Sasuke. It's not like I said that this would happen, just that it wouldn't surprise me.

Nah, there is Danzo and Orochimaru, several characters that just cannot be turned around because they already went too far.

Originally posted by Bentley
Ok, sorry for misrepresenting your argument, but that is only slightly less wrong. Madara can use Edo Tensei, it's likely he knows Izanami and has a variety of techs that surpass Tobi despite just having appeared during a few chapters. But again, you can really believe this but I do not believe it's the most reasonable assumption given what we have seen.

Some of your arguement is speculation as you believe he has powers we have not seen yet. You may be right, but we can't say for sure. I do believe they are very close in terms of power, and have stated several reasons why already. Take them under consideration or don't. That's your choice. I also find it funny that I'm being called out for thinking they are very similar in power when other posters believe they he can pull out a victory against Madara in the versus thread. I'm pretty sure you were one of them.

Originally posted by Bentley
[B Nah, there is Danzo and Orochimaru, several characters that just cannot be turned around because they already went too far. [/B]

Ahh, but Naruto never tried to talk them out of anything so we can't say for sure. What we do know is that Naruto alters perceptions of the people he's around. Not to mention Tobi's old pal kakashi is there as well. Again, I did not say this would happen, or that it is even likely. I simply said that I would not be surprised by it.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
No. Because he is the Big Bad.

Danzo's selfish and hilariously cruel yeah. But at the end of the day, he was just aiming for a political position and was doing whatever he could to get there.

Danzo's motives do not make them any less evil. Besides, if we try to bring motivations into the picture, then we could atually sorta see the good in Tobi's idea. he is trying to bring his version of peace to the world in the form of a genjutsu. Is it right? No, but it is no more evil than anyone else's motivations.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Ha! Everything evil Sasuke has done, Tobi has done ten fold. This was the stupidest alternative. Tobi is planning to become a god and has killed tens of thousands just to get there.

You call out my argument as stupid, but then use the word "stupidest?"
Also, I didn't see he was more evil, I said he was on his way. Which, unless he listens to his brother, or hell, anyone who isn't psycho, he will be just as evil. He will pretty much try to slaughter an entire village because of a few peoples' actions, even though the main person responsible, Danzo, is already dead. Yeah, I'd say he is getting there.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
No. Because he is the Big Bad.

Which is not an argument for why he is the most "evil".

Blackbeard is the biggest contender for current big bad of One Piece, yet Admiral Akainu (Admittedly another contender for big bad), Hody Jones (A mere arc villain), and Caesar Clown are examples of characterrs more evil.

Danzo's selfish and hilariously cruel yeah. But at the end of the day, he was just aiming for a political position and was doing whatever he could to get there.

Plus he was a Hero for the Imperium.

Orochimaru is the closest to Tobi, mostly because his disregard for human life goes as far as to kill 50 infants(Tobi only tried to kill one). However, since Tobi's kill count is far higher(and his goal would have him kill everyone on the planet effectively), he's still objectively the more evil.

That's a rather simple system of morality you have there. Although originally it seemed Tobi just wanted to be a godlike figure, as the evidence stacks up it seems he actually buys the whole peace through the destruction of free will thing, and while still an evil act, isn't nearly as selfish was wanting to become some sort of Shinobi god because you feel you should be teh haxxors. Orochimaru is as of current evidence worse.

Madara is planning the same thing but hasn't done as much evul. Even if he turns out to be the man behind Tobi, Obito's actions are heavily hinted to be his own.

It's hard to say. He hasn't done anything particularly evil yet, but he is such an unpleasant person and the fact that Kurama, a chakra beast made from the malevolence of an Eldritch Abomination, finds him too much of a douchebag to be around is telling. He also hints that he has the most evil chakra he's ever seen. Give Madara some time, with what little we have, we know he is a sexist warmongering douche.

Though, admittedly, he does have one arguably redeeming feature: He didn't like the idea of using his full might against a child, but that could arguably just be him being a condescending douche (Considering his character, likely).

Ha! Everything evil Sasuke has done, Tobi has done ten fold. This was the stupidest alternative. Tobi is planning to become a god and has killed tens of thousands just to get there.

Sasuke was a stupid example mostly for the inconsistency of his character.

And kill count isn't everything.

I'm pretty sure Johan Liebert hasn't been responsible for nearly as many deaths as Tobi, but would you argue Tobi is more evil than the titular Monster? I doubt it.

Also, if we are putting all these death tolls on Tobi, why are they not also being put on Madara? iirc, Tobi hasn't sirectly killed that many people on panel. If we are adding deaths from subordinates, zetsus, and ET bodies, then madara should also be held accountable. He was the ringleader after all.

Originally posted by socool8520
Some of your arguement is speculation as you believe he has powers we have not seen yet. You may be right, but we can't say for sure. I do believe they are very close in terms of power, and have stated several reasons why already. Take them under consideration or don't. That's your choice. I also find it funny that I'm being called out for thinking they are very similar in power when other posters believe they he can pull out a victory against Madara in the versus thread. I'm pretty sure you were one of them.

Madara knows Edo Tensei, that's fact. Also for me Tobi being able to score victories against Madara does not mean they are similar in power, Tobi's personal combat feats haven't been all that impressive, and even with the chakra from the Tailed Beasts he has utterly failed to overpower his opponents. If this is an argument about power, Tobi has no business being named next to Madara.

Originally posted by Bentley
Madara knows Edo Tensei, that's fact. Also for me Tobi being able to score victories against Madara does not mean they are similar in power, Tobi's personal combat feats haven't been all that impressive, and even with the chakra from the Tailed Beasts he has utterly failed to overpower his opponents. If this is an argument about [b]power, Tobi has no business being named next to Madara. [/B]

I won't argue ET. It's the izanami and unknown stuff you were talking about. Well, when you consider who his opponents are It's not really a low showing for Tobi. I mean Naruto is just as high up there on the power scale as Tobi and Madara imo. We already know that each tailed beast is a mountain buster. Tobi has 6 with his paths. That's quite a bit of power considering the strongest tech we have seen from Madara So Far is his meteor and PS. Tobi is on par with that when he combines the bijuu's attacks. So is naruto.

Madara has them in chakra regen, but as it stands, chakra stores haven't been a problem for the top 3 yet. Naruto is getting chakra everywhere, and he seems to think he and Kurama have a lot left.

Tobi has only shown slight signs of fatigue from controlling the beasts and since then, he hasn't really shown any signs of low chakra. To me, the power differences are so slight that I don't feel Madara should be on his own level until he actually does spam attacks for several minutes, or shows a tech that is considerably stronger than 5 bijuudama attacks.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Which is not an argument for why he is the most "evil".

Blackbeard is the biggest contender for current big bad of One Piece, yet Admiral Akainu (Admittedly another contender for big bad), Hody Jones (A mere arc villain), and Caesar Clown are examples of characterrs more evil.

It's an argument why he shouldn't be turned good.

Originally posted by NemeBro
That's a rather simple system of morality you have there. Although originally it seemed Tobi just wanted to be a godlike figure, as the evidence stacks up it seems he actually buys the whole peace through the destruction of free will thing, and while still an evil act, isn't nearly as selfish was wanting to become some sort of Shinobi god because you feel you should be teh haxxors. Orochimaru is as of current evidence worse.

Thank ya. Simplicity often works. And while Orochimaru's goal is indeed the more selfish, Tobi's is one that ultimately causes everyone to die.

Originally posted by NemeBro
It's hard to say. He hasn't done anything particularly evil yet, but he is such an unpleasant person and the fact that Kurama, a chakra beast made from the malevolence of an Eldritch Abomination, finds him too much of a douchebag to be around is telling. He also hints that he has the most evil chakra he's ever seen. Give Madara some time, with what little we have, we know he is a sexist warmongering douche.

Though, admittedly, he does have one arguably redeeming feature: He didn't like the idea of using his full might against a child, but that could arguably just be him being a condescending douche (Considering his character, likely).

Someone capable of such severe love towards Hashirama can't be all bad.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Sasuke was a stupid example mostly for the inconsistency of his character.

And kill count isn't everything.

I'm pretty sure Johan Liebert hasn't been responsible for nearly as many deaths as Tobi, but would you argue Tobi is more evil than the titular Monster? I doubt it.

Johan would gladly destroy the world for no reason at all. There is no motive behind Johan.

Of course, just because he would do terrible things to people all around the world, doesn't mean he has. Johan might gladly have killed everyone in the world for his whim but since for one reason or another his goal was short lived. Tobi on the other hand has killed 10s of thousands. Actually bringing about the death of all those people certainly means more, at least in my view, than just thinking about it.

Being evil isn't about what you have done, its about who you are. You have to consider more than just consequences. The person is evil, not their actions. As Nemebro said its more than just saying 'he's more evil because he's killed more people'. By that logic Will Smith/that jewish guy is super evil because he killed all the aliens in Independence Day. Even though he only did it to save humanity. By that logic the guy who dropped the A-bomb is more evil than Mengele, because his body count was higher. It isn't as simple as that.

Compare Tobi to Gaara. Gaara killed people because he was huge lunatic. He killed them for no reason because he was crazy as ****. Tobi though actually believes that what he's doing is best for everyone. Gaara was more 'evil' because he was simply a more evil person.

Or we can go with someone like Enel or Crocodile. Those guys did evil because they were evil. Tobi does evil because he thinks its the best thing to do.

Johan is ultimately more evil than Tobi because he's the sort of person who would kill humanity for no goddamn reason at all. Tobi would need a reason to do it.

^ I agree with this. Tobi is trying to bring peace in his own way. It is wrong, but he is not doing it solely out of evil intent.

Figured comparisons would come up with the Atom Bomb.

Tobi started this war with full intent of conquering the world and caused the deaths of tens of thousands. This is different from both of those examples because, at the end of the day, the "heroes" didn't start the conflict. They just brutally brought an end to it.

Tobi might have a nice and sweet little reason for becoming a nihilist to the point where he has no hope for humanity and so decides it is his place to become a god to them. But the reason's not going to bring all of the people he killed back. Johan killed hundreds(maybe. Don't remember the exact number) for no reason. Does it make him insane and monstrous? Of course. But Tobi and, say, Light have killed far more with a flimsy excuse for a reason. So where does the line get drawn?

Originally posted by AuraAngel
But Tobi and, say, Light have killed far more with a flimsy excuse for a reason. So where does the line get drawn?

Word of God is that Light genuinely loves all of humanity and his sister though.

Didn't seem to love his daddy. Called him a fool and such.

You can love a fool. :I

His dad dying was one of the few times when he seriously loses his cool.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His dad dying was one of the few times when he seriously loses his cool.

So his conscious decision to act irrational was him losing his cool?

The tears were more what I was thinking of.