Originally posted by socool8520
It seems to me it was more of a shared vision between Madara and Hashirama. Besides, there have been others who have made similar strides in regards to visionary achievements.Tsunade has revolutionized ninja battles with her medical techs and implementation of medical ninjas in each team.
Considering it is Madara who is calling Hashirama a visionary, no, it wasn't. The idea for the village was entirely Hashirama's, and even though they both had ideas on how to end the warring era, it was probably Hashirama who actually ended them.
'Similar' strides? Nah.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Considering it is Madara who is calling Hashirama a visionary, no, it wasn't. The idea for the village was entirely Hashirama's, and even though they both had ideas on how to end the warring era, it was probably Hashirama who actually ended them.'Similar' strides? Nah.
Hash really hasn't had the chance to gush about Madara, since, you know, he's been dead until just recently, so of course Madara is the only one laying on the accolades. The way I interpreted it, they came up with the village idea as a collaboration, but whatever.
So Tsunade didn't revolutionize combat strategy and maximize survivability with her vision? I mean if we are going to downplay achievements, then I guess all hash did was make a pact with madara and grow some tree houses. lol
Originally posted by BloodRain
So you mean better, not stronger? Not counting overall power, which there is no question about, he'd still be up there.
Yeah, better in terms of intelligence, skill, and capability. It just seems to me that people like Kakashi, Oro, Minato, and Itachi showed much more of the above at the same age as Hashirama's flashback. As far as battle tech and prowess go, i think Naruto is right up there with Hash when they are compared at the same ages. Obviously he grew to surpass everyone else later in life.
In power, he is easily top 3 or 4, maybe even higher than that depending on how powerful this thousand hand wood tech is. KCM Naruto, Amped Madara, and possibly current Tobi are the only ones I see on his level right now.
Originally posted by socool8520
Hash really hasn't had the chance to gush about Madara, since, you know, he's been dead until just recently, so of course Madara is the only one laying on the accolades. The way I interpreted it, they came up with the village idea as a collaboration, but whatever.So Tsunade didn't revolutionize combat strategy and maximize survivability with her vision? I mean if we are going to downplay achievements, then I guess all hash did was make a pact with madara and grow some tree houses. lol
I'm not talking about Madara orgasming over Hashirama's strength to the Kages. I'm talking about Madara explicitly stating out loud that Hashirama might be a visionary, to Hashirama himself.
Read it again. The genesis for the idea of the village was Hashirama's. Madara then agrees with him. They both share the same vision of a world without war, but Hashirama was the one who had the vision for the village system.
I never lowballed Tsunade's achievement. Just because you think Tsunade introducing a medical system and revolutionizing the team dynamics of ninjas is somehow on a similar level to Hashirama ending a world-wide war and revolutionizing the way ninjas operate, does not mean that I think they are on the same level. Nor does it mean that they actually are on the same level.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I'm not talking about Madara orgasming over Hashirama's strength to the Kages. I'm talking about Madara explicitly stating out loud that Hashirama might be a visionary, to Hashirama himself.
Read it again. The genesis for the idea of the village was Hashirama's. Madara then agrees with him. They both share the same vision of a world without war, but Hashirama was the one who had the vision for the village system.I never lowballed Tsunade's achievement. Just because you think Tsunade introducing a medical system and revolutionizing the team dynamics of ninjas is somehow on a similar level to Hashirama ending a world-wide war and revolutionizing the way ninjas operate, does not mean that I think they are on the same level. Nor does it mean that they actually are on the same level.
While we are on the village system, how did this really make things better? It didn't do anything except harbor a false sense of security and nothing changed. Clans still murdered each other and villages still went to war much like I assume they were before the village system. At best, it delayed the annihilation of the two prominent clans for a spell, but since only a handful of each clan remains, I wouldn't call it a victory.
Hashirama revolutionized the way ninjas operate/Tsunade revolutionized the way ninjas operate.....sound similar to me.
You're ignoring the concept of scale.
There are 5 main Shinobi villages and half a dozen others. They're all for the most part the military of their own country. All have people assigning missions and schools for teaching. Hashirama, as a child, was already designing the infrastructure that would become the basis for several societies.
Tsunade made the observation that all teams need a medic but in practice she could never make it work because being a medic is very difficult. In fact becoming both a medic and a competent fighter seems to be something only Tsunade and her students could get the hang of. Kabuto too but he was a genius at around her level. She had an idea but ultimately it hasn't affected the world nearly as much as what Hashirama was doing.
Originally posted by socool8520
While we are on the village system, how did this really make things better? It didn't do anything except harbor a false sense of security and nothing changed. Clans still murdered each other and villages still went to war much like I assume they were before the village system. At best, it delayed the annihilation of the two prominent clans for a spell, but since only a handful of each clan remains, I wouldn't call it a victory.Hashirama revolutionized the way ninjas operate/Tsunade revolutionized the way ninjas operate.....sound similar to me.
It ended an era of war, and set in place a system the entire shinobi world followed. I don't get why this is so hard to grasp.
Okay. Sage Mode Naruto fairly beat Deva Path, a Path of Pain, in direct combat. Konohamaru fairly beat a Naraku Path, a Path of Pain, in direct combat. Sounds similar to me, so I guess that since Sage Mode Naruto & Konohamaru both accomplished the same thing, which is victory over a Path of Pain, those two are on a similar level.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Don't be ridiculous, Konohamaru is leagues above him.I'll note that Pain attacked when Hanabi was conveniently away. Coincidence or planned based on terror at facing the 10 year old fury?
I was making a very good point. sneer
I don't believe in coincidence. So, obviously must be the latter. This is also why Tobi waited for so long to capture Naruto.
Originally posted by Q99
He's on the list, but at S plain.What makes you think he deserves an S+?
I think this would be easier if we went about it in he opposite direction.
What about Gaara makes him unworthy of S+? Gaara has the feats, obviously, but you probably had another reason (or reasons) for why he cannot be S+, quite yet.
S+ is quite a special class, of course. It would be better if your fleshed out your reasons for keeping him off of S+.
Well, against Madara's susano'o clones, Tsunade and A, S-plains both, seemed to perform better.
He did beat the S+ 2nd Mizukage, but that involved both Mizukage advice and his father's gold.
Him vs his father, power seemed equal, Gaara just had better control and multitasking, and people were arguing 4th Kazekage for S minus. While there was enough support to put him in the S plain, he is one of the weaker S plains.
And I think 2nd Mizukage is one of the only S+s he could beat, purely because his sand matches up well against genjutsu and Jokey Boy both. Killerbee, Itachi, Onoki, Sasuke with complete Susano'o, Yagura, I think he'd be in trouble against all of them.