Originally posted by NemeBro
Sasuke was heading that way, but only because of Tobi's manipulations, not because of his super duper eyes controlling his mind
Ehhhhh... Sasuke was becoming increasingly frenetic, obsessive and irrational, even before Tobi entered the picture. One could argue that this was due to seeing his family butchered before his eyes, but then, everyone's life in Naruto is kind of ass- not everyone was as emotionally strung out as he was, though.
edit- Also, as far as Itachi... I'd say that having the ability to straight up murder your entire family and not basically have a mental breakdown from the horribleness of the act would require some pretty hefty sociopathic tendencies, even if the act was performed for a [vaguely] noble cause.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree. I cannot believe how dense Aura and Neme are. Pride too huge, bros? 😬Clearly, this chapter cemented that almost every last single Uchiha was a prick and there were very few exceptions: Kagami, at one time Madara, and Itachi.
It is not racism if every last one of the Uchiha were contemptuous pricks. Why is this so hard for you two to understand?
Yep, my pride is completely on the line here.
No but seriously pride is the most worthless thing to have so I've never bothered with it. But if I must go step by step to show that Tobirama is prejudice(racist against a particular family based on an exterior feature or their name) then I shall.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c619/10.html
"Heh an Uchiha...it's just like one to keep such company."
Meaning that going from the ground up Tobirama has a low opinion of the Uchiha. That it is only natural that they would associate with criminals like Orochimaru.
Also on that page:
"Tobirama! I told you to quit spewing such bigotry!"
"A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices..."-Wiki
So not only is Tobirama of the opinion that it is natural for an Uchiha to associate with someone who might be a danger to Konoha but he also doesn't hide these beliefs. Hashirama has actually told him before to stop saying things like this but Tobirama does not listen.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c619/13.html
"I knew they'd rebel eventually."
So even though Kagami and others proved themselves to be loyal Tobirama he still believed that the Uchiha would eventually rebel. No matter how loyal some Uchiha might be their base nature, in Tobirama's eyes, is violent.
Orochimaru, a man who is unbiased in the matter, accuses Tobirama of aggravating the Uchiha to that point where they'd want to rebel. After trying to blow it off, Orochimaru continues elaborating how he went so far as to station them in a prison. Hashirama intervenes.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c619/14.html
"How many times did I tell you not to continue persecuting the Uchiha!"
Apparently this is a prejudice that Tobirama has made clear to his brother, which is clear in the flashback. After a weak reason for why he did it ("I merely gave them a duty they could excel at!"😉 he goes onto say that "You can't blame me for skewing things the way I did after what Madara pulled."
After that Sasuke asks him what the Uchiha are to him.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c619/16.html
Tobirama makes it very clear that they are "mortal enemies" due to their history. And you'll be happy to know I thought of some perfect examples. The Montague's vs the Capulets. Or if you want something more real, the Hatfields and Mccoy's.
Onwards into the flashback.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c622/14.html
"...they need to sit down with one another and reach a truce."
Kid Tobirama has found the solution. If a truce can be made then there will be no violence.
Fast forward and the truce is made!
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v63/c625/9.html
So all's well that end's well right? Well no.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v63/c625/15.html
Tobirama still believes the Uchiha are dangerous because of something they have no real control of(the activation of the Sharingan). And believes that "for the sake of the village being built..." It's left off what he thinking but giving the rest of this evidence we can likely assume he meant prejudice of some kind(like putting them in a role that will cause tension). Tobirama was willing to break his own rule because he heard a rumor.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v63/c627/8.html
Here is the "proof" that he is not prejudice against the Uchiha. Tobirama fully believes the Uchiha were more dangerous than any other clan and it's crystal clear that the only reason he likes Kagami is "he [forsook his] clan for the sake of the village." To Tobirama you could either be loyal to the clan or the village, meaning he always saw them as separate from the village. No other clan in Konoha seems to have retrieved this treatment.
So yes he is prejudice. He is just not above accepting Uchiha that meet his standards. And no, not every Uchiha was a prick. Three are named in this chapter that were explicitly loyal to Konoha, Sasuke was loyal to Konoha until a mixture of corruption from the Curse Seal and mental torture from Itachi caused him to leave. And even then he wasn't out to get Konoha until he was manipulated by Tobi. And Madara seemed fine to be living in the village with Hashirama until Tobirama's mistrust got in the way. Obito was loyal until he saw his friend kill another friend and naively resolved that this simply wouldn't be tolerated in a good world. And him and Madara both suffer from severe depression due to their failures at being able to protect loved ones, which is not unlike how the Kage feel about what happened to the Uchiha. And hell even the Uchiha that were planning to rebel weren't portrayed as evil.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c590/13.html
They're genuinely sad but also proud of their son for making his own decision. They even encourage him not to hesitate while he's about to kill them!
So no, the Uchiha were not born pricks and Tobirama is pretty clearly prejudice against them. End of story.
PREJUDICE
Definition of PREJUDICE2
a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledgec : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
RACISM
Definition of RACISM1
: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
😐
Neither of these apply to Tobi, and if you think they do, you're not comprehending what you're reading.
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Ehhhhh... Sasuke was becoming increasingly frenetic, obsessive and irrational, even before Tobi entered the picture. One could argue that this was due to seeing his family butchered before his eyes, but then, everyone's life in Naruto is kind of ass- not everyone was as emotionally strung out as he was, though.edit- Also, as far as Itachi... I'd say that having the ability to straight up murder your entire family and not basically have a mental breakdown from the horribleness of the act would require some pretty hefty sociopathic tendencies, even if the act was performed for a [vaguely] noble cause.
Kishimoto's bad writing means nothing here fatass.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Yep, my pride is completely on the line here.No but seriously pride is the most worthless thing to have so I've never bothered with it. But if I must go step by step to show that Tobirama is prejudice(racist against a particular family based on an exterior feature or their name) then I shall.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c619/10.html
"Heh an Uchiha...it's just like one to keep such company."
Meaning that going from the ground up Tobirama has a low opinion of the Uchiha. That it is only natural that they would associate with criminals like Orochimaru.
Also on that page:
"Tobirama! I told you to quit spewing such bigotry!"
"A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices..."
So not only is Tobirama of the opinion that it is natural for an Uchiha to associate with someone who might be a danger to Konoha but he also doesn't hide these beliefs. Hashirama has actually told him before to stop saying things like this but Tobirama does not listen.
All but less than 10, from what we have observed, turned against Konoha and/or were plotting against Konoha. It is not bigotry when it is factually correct.
Am I a bigot by saying that those of sub-Saharan African decent have lower IQs than other human groupings? Nope: that's a fact.
Is Tobirama a bigot for concluding an Uchiha that is colluding with an enemy of Konoah is a bad Uchiha? Nope: the extreme majority of the Uchiha did as such and almost all refused to integrate with Konoha and put the good of the village about their own self-interests.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c619/13.html
Originally posted by AuraAngel
"I knew they'd rebel eventually."So even though Kagami and others proved themselves to be loyal Tobirama he still believed that the Uchiha would eventually rebel. No matter how loyal some Uchiha might be their base nature, in Tobirama's eyes, is violent.
And they did and as he stated, none but a very select few would give up their hatred of other clans and all of them but a few refused to integrate with Konoha.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c619/14.html"How many times did I tell you not to continue persecuting the Uchiha!"
Apparently this is a prejudice that Tobirama has made clear to his brother, which is clear in the flashback. After a weak reason for why he did it ("I merely gave them a duty they could excel at!"😉 he goes onto say that "You can't blame me for skewing things the way I did after what Madara pulled."
After that Sasuke asks him what the Uchiha are to him.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c619/16.html
Tobirama makes it very clear that they are "mortal enemies" due to their history. And you'll be happy to know I thought of some perfect examples. The Montague's vs the Capulets. Or if you want something more real, the Hatfields and Mccoy's.
You idiotically ignore the coming science that Tobirama lays down on Sasuke for why the Uchiha are such a cursed and hateful clan. You forgot to mention the neuroscience that Tobirama touched on in his reply to Sasuke. Nice of you to ignore the evidence that clearly makes Tobirama's caution against the Uchiha correct.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Here is the "proof" that he is not prejudice against the Uchiha. Tobirama fully believes the Uchiha were more dangerous than any other clan and it's crystal clear that the only reason he likes Kagami is "he [forsook his] clan for the sake of the village." To Tobirama you could either be loyal to the clan or the village, meaning he always saw them as separate from the village. No other clan in Konoha seems to have retrieved this treatment.
So you you will just brush aside Tobirama's almost naive acceptance of any Uchiha that is willing to play as a team with the rest of Konoha and then ignore all the actions of the Uchiha that make it quite clear that they never wanted to integrate with Konoha, and then pretend Tobirama's statements were prejudiced? Shit, it doesn't get anymore idiotic than this. You are so absorbed in making yourself right that you are not even forming your arguments into anything coherent. It is not whether or not I am right as I am not making a point, at all: I am just pointing your attention to the facts in the manga. I cannot be wrong since it is not my point, at all: it is Kishimoto's.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
So yes he is prejudice. He is just not above accepting Uchiha that meet his standards. And no, not every Uchiha was a prick. Three are named in this chapter that were explicitly loyal to Konoha, Sasuke was loyal to Konoha until a mixture of corruption from the Curse Seal and mental torture from Itachi caused him to leave. And even then he wasn't out to get Konoha until he was manipulated by Tobi. And Madara seemed fine to be living in the village with Hashirama until Tobirama's mistrust got in the way. Obito was loyal until he saw his friend kill another friend and naively resolved that this simply wouldn't be tolerated in a good world. And him and Madara both suffer from severe depression due to their failures at being able to protect loved ones, which is not unlike how the Kage feel about what happened to the Uchiha. And hell even the Uchiha that were planning to rebel weren't portrayed as evil.
I would note that Sasuke was raised in innocence, on purpose, by Itachi (he would not let his father corrupt Sasuke) and on top of that, Sasuke was raised by non-Uchiha after his clan was massacred. Despite this, Sasuke still became an evil little shit.
Also, Madara seemed to be uneasy about the whole thing and that was reflected in his conversation with Hashirama when Hashirama offered the Hokage position to Madara. Madara is not dumb: he knew that if he became Hokage, his clan would finally settle in and accept the village lifestyle.
Lastly, you have no idea what "prejudiced" means. Marawash beat me to the punch.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c590/13.htmlThey're genuinely sad but also proud of their son for making his own decision. They even encourage him not to hesitate while he's about to kill them!
So no, the Uchiha were not born pricks and Tobirama is pretty clearly prejudice against them. End of story.
Sorry, but you're clearly wrong. They are about to die and they know nothing they do can stop Itachi. Just because they show humanity before they are about to be slaughtered does not mean they were not pricks. They knew what was going on and they knew what was going to happen yet they continued with their uprising that would start a civil war that would result in the death of many people including the possibility of their own children: clearly selfish dick-head pricks with waaaaaay too much pride.
I'd also like to add that the Uchiha were not despised for being police: every single last person seemed to revere and even admire the Uchiha for their power, intelligence, and abilities: in and outside the village. Hardly the isolation and despisement that Hashirama painted.
Originally posted by dadudemon
All but less than 10, from what we have observed, turned against Konoha and/or were plotting against Konoha. It is not bigotry when it is factually correct.Am I a bigot by saying that those of sub-Saharan African decent have lower IQs than other human groupings? Nope: that's a fact.
Is Tobirama a bigot for concluding an Uchiha that is colluding with an enemy of Konoah is a bad Uchiha? Nope: the extreme majority of the Uchiha did as such and almost all refused to integrate with Konoha and put the good of the village about their own self-interests.
And a grand total of one Shimura proved to be an ******* that regardless of his intentions enslaved a bunch of kids to do his bidding. But I don't make the argument that all of them are bad based on that because, well, only one exists.
It's only a fact if you prove it but I'll take your word for it. The entrance of bigotry is when you try to manipulate the facts to suit your purposes. I.e Noah had three sons and the one he cursed happen to father all black people everywhere, thus making it "natural" for them to be slaves. To the people of the time this was a fact. Using facts to justify bigotry is wrong. And mind you "bigotry" is not my word here. It's Hashirama's. I.e a character who knows more about Tobirama than either me or you.
Originally posted by dadudemon
And they did and as he stated, none but a very select few would give up their hatred of other clans and all of them but a few refused to integrate with Konoha.
And yet 60 years passed by without an incident. It wasn't until Madara and Obito directly got involved that the tensions rose to the point where the Uchiha felt they were within their rights to rebel.
Originally posted by dadudemon
You idiotically ignore the coming science that Tobirama lays down on Sasuke for why the Uchiha are such a cursed and hateful clan. You forgot to mention the neuroscience that Tobirama touched on in his reply to Sasuke. Nice of you to ignore the evidence that clearly makes Tobirama's caution against the Uchiha correct.
I ignore it or choose not to comment on it because it is irrelevant to the point? I figured this would come up but I was hoping to just tl;dr everybody. If you want it you got it.
Tobirama's neuroscience(that holds it's roots in a rumor he heard once) explains that the Sharingan is awaken when a person feels great loss after coming to know love. He also says the hatred comes to consume them but this is, for a fact, not always true. Nor is it true that loss and hatred are the only things that can awaken the Sharingan.
Case in point: How did Obito awaken his normal Sharingan again? Under a stressful situation. The only one who had experienced any definite loss was Kakashi but he hardly counts. I suppose you could say that it was the thought of losing Rin that frightened him but considering that wasn't on his mind at the time I hardly count it.
But let's go further his neuroscience holds it that it is the brain of an Uchiha that releases this chakra and causes it to manifest. This is factually incorrect.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c605/8.html
Kakashi awakens the Mangekyou and his brain is 100% non-Uchiha.
Now since it is clearly not something wrong with the brain(otherwise it wouldn't have awoken the Mangekyou for Kakashi) then we must conclude that it is in the eyes, which can be awoken under none hate filled conditions. Hell Obito awoken it for the purposes of saving his friends. So even assuming the neuroscience is supposed to retcon all of that it ultimately means nothing. Is it possible for an Uchiha to awaken the Sharingan or Mangekyou and be loyal to Konoha, overcoming your hatred? Yep. All this neuroscience that I ignored is irrelevant because it means only that "loss" awakens the Sharingan. All it really means is that you know have a visual indication that proves a person has suffered some kind of loss. It doesn't, say, cause a giant rage where they have to slaughter everything in sight because several Uchiha haven't done that.
Originally posted by dadudemon
So you you will just brush aside Tobirama's almost naive acceptance of any Uchiha that is willing to play as a team with the rest of Konoha and then ignore all the actions of the Uchiha that make it quite clear that they never wanted to integrate with Konoha, and then pretend Tobirama's statements were prejudiced? Shit, it doesn't get anymore idiotic than this. You are so absorbed in making yourself right that you are not even forming your arguments into anything coherent. It is not whether or not I am right as I am not making a point, at all: I am just pointing your attention to the facts in the manga. I cannot be wrong since it is not my point, at all: it is Kishimoto's.
Yep the Uchiha who were defecting to the Senju before the clan had even made the truce and the Uchiha who didn't want to be separated from the village clearly showed nothing but contempt for the village. As for the second underlined portion NemeBro has already addressed the whole Death of the Author thing but I'll just merely use an example of it: Blax suggested that Itachi is secretly a sociopath which is why he had no problem killing his family. Obviously this probably isn't what Kishi intended since everyone and their mother has been calling Itachi the second coming of Christ really. Does this make Blax's interpretation wrong? Not at all. He is free to make that argument.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I would note that Sasuke was raised in innocence, on purpose, by Itachi (he would not let his father corrupt Sasuke) and on top of that, Sasuke was raised by non-Uchiha after his clan was massacred. Despite this, Sasuke still became an evil little shit.Also, Madara seemed to be uneasy about the whole thing and that was reflected in his conversation with Hashirama when Hashirama offered the Hokage position to Madara. Madara is not dumb: he knew that if he became Hokage, his clan would finally settle in and accept the village lifestyle.
Lastly, you have no idea what "prejudiced" means. Marawash beat me to the punch.
Yeah the guy telling Sasuke to hate everything is clearly giving the best advice to make him innocent. And really there is no indication that Sasuke was raised by anyone after the massacre since he was still living in the same place. They didn't do it for Naruto so why they would for Sasuke is not really something you can explain since so little time is spent on it.
And I like how you just sort of ignored the whole "mental torture" and corruption from the Curse Seal thing that was also present. And little shit would be far more apt a description for early Naruto more than early Sasuke. Early Sasuke was just sort of distant and overconfident.
Which is why he went on to question what a Hokage has to do. He never says outright "no I don't want to be Hokage" but rather just doubts he is the one to do it since he failed to protect his brothers.
prej·u·dice
[prej-uh-dis] Show IPA noun, verb, prej·u·diced, prej·u·dic·ing.
noun
1.an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2.any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
3.unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
4.such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending.
5.damage or injury; detriment: a law that operated to the prejudice of the majority.
I can see 1-3 fitting Tobirama thank you very much.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Sorry, but you're clearly wrong. They are about to die and they know nothing they do can stop Itachi. Just because they show humanity before they are about to be slaughtered does not mean they were not pricks. They knew what was going on and they knew what was going to happen yet they continued with their uprising that would start a civil war that would result in the death of many people including the possibility of their own children: clearly selfish dick-head pricks with waaaaaay too much pride.I'd also like to add that the Uchiha were not despised for being police: every single last person seemed to revere and even admire the Uchiha for their power, intelligence, and abilities: in and outside the village. Hardly the isolation and despisement that Hashirama painted.
Except you know trying to kill him first. And by that logic any uprising is morally contemptible and unjustifiable. I could say the Colonists were just being cheapskates who didn't want to pay money and so started a war where a shit ton of people died.
Orochimaru, an unbiased source, disagrees. But if you want to prove that every single person outside of the Uchiha had this opinion then by all means do so.
Also Dadudemon you seem rather hostile today. Calling me idiotic and all that jazz. It makes me think you're stressed. So while I go do a crap ton of stuff I have to do today I hope you have a good day. ^_^
Originally posted by AuraAngel
And a grand total of one Shimura proved to be an ******* that regardless of his intentions enslaved a bunch of kids to do his bidding. But I don't make the argument that all of them are bad based on that because, well, only one exists.It's only a fact if you prove it but I'll take your word for it. The entrance of bigotry is when you try to manipulate the facts to suit your purposes. I.e Noah had three sons and the one he cursed happen to father all black people everywhere, thus making it "natural" for them to be slaves. To the people of the time this was a fact. Using facts to justify bigotry is wrong. And mind you "bigotry" is not my word here. It's Hashirama's. I.e a character who knows more about Tobirama than either me or you.
Your reply seems irrelevant to the section you quoted. Also, your point about bigotry becomes invalid when considering one person: Kagami.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
And yet 60 years passed by without an incident.
And yet, the Uchiha clan was planning to overthrow Konoha.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
It wasn't until Madara and Obito directly got involved that the tensions rose to the point where the Uchiha felt they were within their rights to rebel.
HOLY SHIT!
😆 😆
So now you're going to start making shit up just to be right? Hint: it had nothing to do with Obito or Madara getting involved.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Tobirama's neuroscience(that holds it's roots in a rumor he heard once) explains that the Sharingan is awaken when a person feels great loss after coming to know love. He also says the hatred comes to consume them but this is, for a fact, not always true.
False: it is explicitly true and has been proven every single time.
Name a single person that was not consumed by hatred that got the Sharingan. Hint: you cannot use "turned away from the dark side" as an outlet. Second Hint: I honestly believe Kakashi was consumed by his hatred...he just got over it because he's bawse like that.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Nor is it true that loss and hatred are the only things that can awaken the Sharingan.
Partially false: it is "loss and/or hatred." In every instance we've seen it activated, it was intense rage. In every instance we've seen the MS activated, it was due to the loss of a very close loved one...even Kakashi.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Case in point: How did Obito awaken his normal Sharingan again? Under a stressful situation.
Correction: intense rage to want to slaughter his enemy.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
The only one who had experienced any definite loss was Kakashi but he hardly counts.
That was his MS, not the Sharingan. And he really did kill his best friend: Rin.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
I suppose you could say that it was the thought of losing Rin that frightened him but considering that wasn't on his mind at the time I hardly count it.
You shouldn't because you're approaching it with false reasons.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
But let's go further his neuroscience holds it that it is the brain of an Uchiha that releases this chakra and causes it to manifest. This is factually incorrect.http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c605/8.html
Kakashi awakens the Mangekyou and his brain is 100% non-Uchiha.
Wait...wait...wait....
A non-Uchiha is not consumed by rage (debatable...I think he was because there is no reason to assume otherwise...he was torn up about it for years...also, Kakashi even admits that it would make him rage when Sasuke brings up the topic of killing Kakashi's loved ones...Kakashi says, "that would work."😉 when his MS is activated and you cite that as evidence that the Uchiha are not consumed by rage? WTF? Do you think you make sense? Answer honestly: do you think you make even a little bit of sense? Again...non-Uchiha...activating the MS...is somehow evidence against the genetic predisposition of Uchiha to be consumed with hatred/rage?
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Now since it is clearly not something wrong with the brain(otherwise it wouldn't have awoken the Mangekyou for Kakashi)...
False: you are now contradicting literal in-manga experts on top of toting around this false notion (I picture you carrying that false notion around in a caboodle*) that somehow Kakashi, a non-Uchiha, proves your point.
*a makeup case...teehee
Originally posted by AuraAngel
then we must conclude that it is in the eyes, which can be awoken under none hate filled conditions.
False and false for several reasons:
1. Kakashi is not an Uchiha. The genetic predispositions of the neuro-activity of an Uchiha are not going to run congruent with a non-Uchiha, necessarily.
2. All others, except Itachi, that have an MS were consumed by their rage.
3. Who is to say that Kakashi was not filled with rage about having to kill Rin? It seems he was still quite upset over it even over a decade later. Is it possible that Kakashi recognized that he had a problem and sought help/meditation?
You have concluded falsely and supported your conclusion with both incorrect information and malformed logic while also discounting other possible variables.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Hell Obito awoken it for the purposes of saving his friends.
Or we could go with the facts and say it awoken because he was filled with rage against his enemies BECAUSE his friends were about to die.
I would prefer to call it more accurately has "life-threatening stress mixed with severe anger." Would you agree to that?
Originally posted by AuraAngel
So even assuming the neuroscience is supposed to retcon all of that it ultimately means nothing.
Sure, by your faulty logic, I can see how one could conclude that.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Is it possible for an Uchiha to awaken the Sharingan or Mangekyou and be loyal to Konoha, overcoming your hatred? Yep.
Being loyal to Konoha is not a stipulation or rule for avoiding the rage and consumption. I would wager that all were consumed with their rage/hatred. Very few seem to be able to get over it because we have rare exceptions like Itachi and Kagami.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
All this neuroscience that I ignored is irrelevant because it means only that "loss" awakens the Sharingan.
We are getting somewhere: you at least admit you're ignoring facts to support your position...much like I ignore stupid overpowered/out-of-character feats from comic book characters.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
All it really means is that you know have a visual indication that proves a person has suffered some kind of loss.
It means, for almost everyone, that you have become consumed by your rage with few exceptions as stated by Tobirama who knows more about the subject than you and I do. If he was wrong, why didn't anyone contradict him? Hmm? Especially Hashirama who was just arguing with him about it a few pages prior. Hmm? You'd think that would be a perfect situation to contradict Tobirama.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
It doesn't, say, cause a giant rage where they have to slaughter everything in sight because several Uchiha haven't done that.
Their rage seems to be explored in other ways than going into a berserker mode.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Yep the Uchiha who were defecting to the Senju before the clan had even made the truce and the Uchiha who didn't want to be separated from the village clearly showed nothing but contempt for the village. As for the second underlined portion NemeBro has already addressed the whole Death of the Author thing but I'll just merely use an example of it: Blax suggested that Itachi is secretly a sociopath which is why he had no problem killing his family. Obviously this probably isn't what Kishi intended since everyone and their mother has been calling Itachi the second coming of Christ really. Does this make Blax's interpretation wrong? Not at all. He is free to make that argument.
You're right: by "never wanted to join the village", I was referring to their contempt for the Senju. Sure, they set-aside difference only temporarily but the hatred came back up very shortly because, apparently, Kagami was a very rare exception as stated by Tobirama. By the time we get to Itachi, they Uchiha act as though...drum roll...they never wanted to be part of the village.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Yeah the guy telling Sasuke to hate everything is clearly giving the best advice to make him innocent.
At what point, before the massacre, did Itachi tell that to Sasuke?
Also, by stating that, you are just destroying your position. So Itachi thinks the way to gain "Uchiha"-power is through hatred, huh? lol